WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.040 --> 00:00:04.720 Welcome to Compass, finding spirituality in the everyday. My name 2 00:00:04.720 --> 00:00:08.535 is Ryan Dunn. I am the host of Compass and we're back. If 3 00:00:08.535 --> 00:00:12.375 you've been anticipating this episode in real time, you'll notice 4 00:00:12.375 --> 00:00:14.030 that we're late in releasing 5 00:00:21.855 --> 00:00:25.375 channels. That should now be resolved. So you can 6 00:00:25.375 --> 00:00:28.595 resume consuming pod, The Compass podcast 7 00:00:29.295 --> 00:00:33.120 on your podcast listening or viewing platform of 8 00:00:33.120 --> 00:00:36.640 choice. In this episode, I got to speak with 9 00:00:36.640 --> 00:00:40.400 Bruce Reyes Chow, who is an influential voice 10 00:00:40.400 --> 00:00:43.825 in progressive Christianity. We discussed his 11 00:00:43.825 --> 00:00:47.585 newfound interest in houseplants. Just kidding. We did. But we 12 00:00:47.585 --> 00:00:51.260 also really got into the evolving future of the church, 13 00:00:51.800 --> 00:00:54.300 advocating for greater diversity, inclusivity, 14 00:00:55.239 --> 00:00:58.835 and a more nuanced portrayal of Christianity 15 00:00:59.215 --> 00:01:02.575 in the media, which is timely as we're releasing this 16 00:01:02.575 --> 00:01:06.300 episode in the course of an American election season that 17 00:01:06.300 --> 00:01:09.980 contains a lot of dialogue around the American witness of 18 00:01:09.980 --> 00:01:13.280 Christianity and explicitly Christian 19 00:01:13.500 --> 00:01:17.015 nationalism. Bruce shares his vision for distilling 20 00:01:17.315 --> 00:01:20.995 complex theological concepts into accessible and 21 00:01:20.995 --> 00:01:24.540 impactful faith montages, which offer a 22 00:01:24.540 --> 00:01:28.299 progressive entry point for those curious about the church. And there's 23 00:01:28.299 --> 00:01:32.000 so much more. Bruce is really a fun person to speak with. 24 00:01:32.095 --> 00:01:35.935 I think that you'll enjoy this listen. If you enjoy 25 00:01:35.935 --> 00:01:39.615 listening to compass on the regular, leave a rating and 26 00:01:39.615 --> 00:01:43.360 or review. It helps us get seen, and it draws more interesting guests 27 00:01:43.360 --> 00:01:46.500 to the podcast. So thank you so much for doing that. 28 00:01:46.960 --> 00:01:50.659 Bruce Reyes Chow, a little bit about him. He's an author, speaker, parent, 29 00:01:51.335 --> 00:01:54.555 consultant, coach, podcaster, and 30 00:01:54.695 --> 00:01:58.055 pastor. He speaks and writes on issues of faith, 31 00:01:58.055 --> 00:02:01.460 technology, race, parenting and church 32 00:02:01.460 --> 00:02:04.920 culture. His most recent book is called Everything Good 33 00:02:05.140 --> 00:02:08.520 About God is True. And the book helps us address 34 00:02:08.875 --> 00:02:12.715 not just what we don't believe, which is easy to express for a lot of 35 00:02:12.715 --> 00:02:16.474 us, but it also addresses how our 36 00:02:16.474 --> 00:02:20.120 lived experiences help refine that which we 37 00:02:20.120 --> 00:02:23.900 do truly believe about God in faith. 38 00:02:23.960 --> 00:02:27.535 So that sounds really cool. Let's meet Bruce Reyes 39 00:02:27.535 --> 00:02:29.194 Chow on the Compass podcast. 40 00:02:32.135 --> 00:02:35.815 Bruce Reyes Chow, thank you so much for joining us. How goes it with 41 00:02:35.815 --> 00:02:39.210 your soul today? Oh, it is good. If if 42 00:02:39.210 --> 00:02:42.970 COVID wasn't hanging out in my household, it'd be even better. So I will 43 00:02:42.970 --> 00:02:46.715 make it through without coughing up a lot. But overall, life 44 00:02:46.715 --> 00:02:50.394 is good. It is nice and toasty out here 45 00:02:50.394 --> 00:02:53.595 whenever this is posting out. We're in that heat wave in California, and it is, 46 00:02:54.170 --> 00:02:57.849 but I'm in a nice cool office. My I'm surround I've been on the road 47 00:02:57.849 --> 00:03:01.130 a lot surrounded by my familiar plants and my well, this is one of my 48 00:03:01.130 --> 00:03:04.084 pandemic hangovers as I got into 49 00:03:04.865 --> 00:03:08.225 houseplants and propagating houseplants. So there you go. 50 00:03:08.225 --> 00:03:11.970 So life is good. Are those the same plants that you got back in 51 00:03:11.970 --> 00:03:15.569 2020? Because they look like they're fantastic. A couple of them are are 52 00:03:15.569 --> 00:03:19.215 babies. Like, they Yeah. I've really gotten into I think 53 00:03:19.215 --> 00:03:22.995 the answer to the question, can you have too many plants, is no. 54 00:03:23.695 --> 00:03:26.975 So I just snip and I and one of the things that I do when 55 00:03:26.975 --> 00:03:30.350 people come over to visit when we are able to do that is I, 56 00:03:31.290 --> 00:03:35.065 invite people to walk through 2 of our rooms and take any potted 57 00:03:35.065 --> 00:03:38.665 plant home that they want. Oh. Because That's so sweet of 58 00:03:38.665 --> 00:03:41.625 you. We just have a bunch of them and my wife is always like, do 59 00:03:41.625 --> 00:03:45.069 we need to buy more plants? I'm like no because I can propagate them now 60 00:03:45.450 --> 00:03:49.130 anyway there you go. Alright. What do you need to know about? Yeah. 61 00:03:49.130 --> 00:03:52.765 It's a podcast today. That's right. 62 00:03:52.765 --> 00:03:56.365 So so do you find that, what is the proper watering amount 63 00:03:56.365 --> 00:04:00.205 and alright. So we've we've rehashed the, the 64 00:04:00.205 --> 00:04:03.970 year 2020. In your book, you address readers in 65 00:04:03.970 --> 00:04:07.810 the possible year of 2050. I would love to 66 00:04:07.810 --> 00:04:11.485 know, like, what do you think the church might look like in the year 67 00:04:11.485 --> 00:04:15.245 2050? Oh, yeah. Oh, gosh. I mean, again, 68 00:04:15.245 --> 00:04:18.300 if I if I could really predict that, you know. So here's what I I 69 00:04:18.300 --> 00:04:21.899 would say is that, for those who do read the book, I am 70 00:04:21.899 --> 00:04:25.465 not one that, is an anti 71 00:04:25.465 --> 00:04:29.305 denominational or anti association or any of those. I just I help to 72 00:04:29.305 --> 00:04:33.039 explain why those exist. And usually it's because how we 73 00:04:33.039 --> 00:04:36.500 make decisions and govern ourselves. And I actually think there is a 74 00:04:36.960 --> 00:04:40.525 lovely mix of the different ways that that people are drawn to 75 00:04:40.525 --> 00:04:43.965 making decisions in our setting. Like, how do you discern the mind of Christ and 76 00:04:43.965 --> 00:04:47.245 the will of God together? And what does that look like? Is it a group 77 00:04:47.245 --> 00:04:50.700 of a smaller group of people that help decide? Is it a larger 78 00:04:50.700 --> 00:04:54.460 group? So what I hope the church looks like in terms of just structurally is 79 00:04:54.460 --> 00:04:58.295 that there are a lot of versions of of how people are engaged 80 00:04:58.295 --> 00:05:01.735 in church in the future that help to give breadth and depth and 81 00:05:01.735 --> 00:05:05.389 texture to how we do church. Now what we believe, what I 82 00:05:05.389 --> 00:05:09.090 hope, I'm just gonna say here's what I hope. I hope that when journalists, 83 00:05:10.110 --> 00:05:13.845 pundits, they wanna say the church. 84 00:05:14.465 --> 00:05:18.224 We have forced them to give more descriptors than that because 85 00:05:18.224 --> 00:05:21.940 right now, the narrative that holds our 86 00:05:21.940 --> 00:05:24.760 attention and gets the play is a very 87 00:05:25.620 --> 00:05:29.380 white conservative Christian nationalist version of the gospel. And when 88 00:05:29.380 --> 00:05:33.085 somebody says that's the church, it gets very little pushback other than 89 00:05:33.085 --> 00:05:36.125 those of us who are like, but that's not the only church and and that 90 00:05:36.125 --> 00:05:39.965 just doesn't you know, it's like, but us, I wanna force those 91 00:05:39.965 --> 00:05:43.670 who are driving cultural narratives to 92 00:05:43.670 --> 00:05:47.290 have to think about different versions of 93 00:05:47.350 --> 00:05:51.115 Christianity. And that's that's is where it's for me, we 94 00:05:51.115 --> 00:05:54.875 we have to help our help the the culture get there. So I'm 95 00:05:54.875 --> 00:05:58.440 just gonna pretend that we've done a great job. And in 2050, when 96 00:05:58.600 --> 00:06:01.560 CNN says the church, they have to say the church, the part of the church 97 00:06:01.560 --> 00:06:05.400 that dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, to help people delineate that we're 98 00:06:05.400 --> 00:06:08.965 not all just this as the default. So that's 99 00:06:09.685 --> 00:06:12.485 I don't know how much money I'd bet on it, but that's my hope. Right. 100 00:06:12.485 --> 00:06:16.250 So there you go. Well, I had this, this question 101 00:06:16.250 --> 00:06:20.009 all lined up for you that I was particularly proud of, and 102 00:06:20.009 --> 00:06:23.415 it had to do with adages and and kind of, 103 00:06:24.215 --> 00:06:27.915 distilling theology into into simplistic sayings. 104 00:06:28.535 --> 00:06:32.110 And and then I realized, like, oh, well, you already kinda came up for 105 00:06:32.669 --> 00:06:35.310 it. It came up with it for us and then the name of your book 106 00:06:35.310 --> 00:06:39.009 about is Everything Good About God is True. But 107 00:06:39.150 --> 00:06:42.615 when I ask the question anyway, even though that might be an answer to 108 00:06:42.615 --> 00:06:46.235 it, in saying that as you talked about the Christian 109 00:06:46.294 --> 00:06:49.750 nationalist aspect of of the church or even the 110 00:06:49.750 --> 00:06:53.430 fundamentalist aspect of the church, like, part of their success, part of the 111 00:06:53.430 --> 00:06:57.025 reason why they get the microphone so much is that their 112 00:06:57.025 --> 00:07:00.785 message can be pretty simple sometimes. Their adages, like, well, 113 00:07:00.785 --> 00:07:04.305 the the Bible says it or God said it. I believe it. That settles 114 00:07:04.305 --> 00:07:07.790 it. Besides maybe everything good 115 00:07:07.850 --> 00:07:11.470 about God is true, are there some similar adages that 116 00:07:11.930 --> 00:07:15.675 might describe this other side of the church? Yeah. 117 00:07:15.815 --> 00:07:19.575 I mean, I think part of why again, you know, huge 118 00:07:19.575 --> 00:07:23.240 generalizations we're speaking of. But why that kind of, you know, 119 00:07:23.240 --> 00:07:27.020 conservative ish version is because they have convinced us 120 00:07:27.479 --> 00:07:30.780 that there is security in 121 00:07:31.875 --> 00:07:35.635 specificity and and that if you can just own these 10 122 00:07:35.635 --> 00:07:39.395 things, then all will be right in the world and with 123 00:07:39.395 --> 00:07:43.230 God. And Mhmm. That never fit well with me. I mean, I didn't grow 124 00:07:43.230 --> 00:07:46.990 up in that. I didn't really wasn't even adjacent to it. I grew up with 125 00:07:46.990 --> 00:07:50.535 its expansive nature of God and that there was great security in 126 00:07:50.535 --> 00:07:53.115 knowing that God was this expansive 127 00:07:53.975 --> 00:07:57.355 place and that God could handle me 128 00:07:57.735 --> 00:08:00.830 in all the versions that I am. I mean, I come out of a small 129 00:08:00.830 --> 00:08:04.610 urban church in Stockton, California. All kinds of trouble 130 00:08:04.750 --> 00:08:08.475 in life and community. And it was a place 131 00:08:08.555 --> 00:08:11.995 where we were reminded that God can handle whatever we bring. And I think that 132 00:08:11.995 --> 00:08:15.755 has always stuck with me is that, you know, there there there are some 133 00:08:15.755 --> 00:08:19.020 folks that leave all that stuff behind when you come into this holy space. And 134 00:08:19.020 --> 00:08:22.540 I'm like, actually, no. No. No. No. Bring it all in. We hold it 135 00:08:22.540 --> 00:08:26.215 together. Right? Bring everything in. Bring everything to the 136 00:08:26.215 --> 00:08:29.975 table because God's love is big enough to hold all of it. And 137 00:08:29.975 --> 00:08:33.655 so I think those figuring out how we distill 138 00:08:33.655 --> 00:08:37.209 without, you know, oversimplifying, you know, what it 139 00:08:37.209 --> 00:08:40.990 means for God to be expansive. Like and this is why the leadership, 140 00:08:41.610 --> 00:08:45.385 we have gotten lazy that we want to overexplain everything, and we 141 00:08:45.385 --> 00:08:49.065 don't know how to distill what we believe into digestible 142 00:08:49.305 --> 00:08:52.380 because we look down in some ways. Right? We look down on that. And I'm 143 00:08:52.380 --> 00:08:55.740 like, well, no. We gotta be able to like, if you can't 144 00:08:55.740 --> 00:08:59.500 summarize your sermon in a in a in a x 145 00:08:59.500 --> 00:09:03.125 length thing, people aren't gonna get it. Like, you 146 00:09:03.125 --> 00:09:06.325 get all that other stuff is great, but if I can't preach a sermon and 147 00:09:06.325 --> 00:09:08.965 then somebody walks away and I'm like, just in a couple of sentences, what was 148 00:09:08.965 --> 00:09:12.700 that about? And if I haven't been able to communicate something, not as 149 00:09:12.700 --> 00:09:16.460 if everybody gets what I'm trying to communicate every time, but they 150 00:09:16.460 --> 00:09:19.085 need to be able I need to be able to so I'm always focusing on 151 00:09:19.085 --> 00:09:22.785 what's that 2 or 3 sentence, one sentence thing that I'm trying to get across 152 00:09:22.925 --> 00:09:26.525 and all this stuff, other kind of bounces. So, you know, I look at things 153 00:09:26.525 --> 00:09:30.300 like you are enough. Yeah. You God loves you and 154 00:09:30.300 --> 00:09:34.140 you are enough. Right? Yeah. It goes against that idea 155 00:09:34.140 --> 00:09:37.915 that you need to be more for God when I think that that's a that's 156 00:09:37.915 --> 00:09:41.595 a you're a transactional theology. If you are 157 00:09:41.595 --> 00:09:45.279 more than God will do this. Whereas I'm like, well, God loves me and tells 158 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:48.880 me that no matter who I am, I am enough. And out of that love, 159 00:09:48.880 --> 00:09:52.640 then I'm trying to be even better. Right? So, there's lots of those 160 00:09:52.640 --> 00:09:55.834 kinds of things. And I, and in the in the book, this montage that I 161 00:09:55.834 --> 00:09:59.514 go through, there's lots of in there that I think will fit that 162 00:09:59.514 --> 00:10:03.120 same need for people to have something that's bite sized, 163 00:10:03.340 --> 00:10:06.940 but I hope more meaningful. So yeah. So there's, like, quite a few of them 164 00:10:06.940 --> 00:10:10.324 in there. Yeah. Well, let's talk about that montage a little bit. You 165 00:10:10.485 --> 00:10:13.925 Yeah. You endorse kinda creating a faith 166 00:10:13.925 --> 00:10:16.904 montage. So what does that concept really entail? 167 00:10:17.800 --> 00:10:21.480 Well, I mean, I wish it was deeper than I'm a Gen Xer and 168 00:10:21.480 --> 00:10:24.840 every Gen X movie had some kind of montage in it. I 169 00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:28.675 mean, that's that's really what at the core, that's really what 170 00:10:28.675 --> 00:10:31.875 it was. I gotta know then because they always have a soundtrack too. Like, what 171 00:10:31.954 --> 00:10:35.315 what's the soundtrack of your Well, see, it's interesting. So mine would be kind of 172 00:10:35.315 --> 00:10:39.010 like eighties R and B kind of thing where Okay. In other times, 173 00:10:39.010 --> 00:10:42.850 it's gonna be Poppy, like, Dexy's 174 00:10:42.850 --> 00:10:45.110 Midnight Runners. That kind of thing. Like, that'll be, 175 00:10:46.895 --> 00:10:50.095 so but, you know, but for me, montages are great because you knew it was 176 00:10:50.095 --> 00:10:52.975 leading you somewhere, but you just got bits and pieces of it getting you to 177 00:10:52.975 --> 00:10:56.670 the point and it sped the movie along. And that's kind of how I 178 00:10:56.670 --> 00:11:00.510 see this. I could have certainly called it a faith statement, but I was like, 179 00:11:00.510 --> 00:11:03.865 yawn. Like, that's something that we all have and there's 180 00:11:04.405 --> 00:11:08.245 nothing Sounds very ugly about that. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, you know, for those 181 00:11:08.245 --> 00:11:11.920 who are reading it, who kinda come out of the church, faith statements often can 182 00:11:11.920 --> 00:11:15.680 be checklists to what are you supposed to believe in order for 183 00:11:15.680 --> 00:11:18.775 us to be included in this. And I think I did I wanted to get 184 00:11:18.775 --> 00:11:22.555 away from that as well. And I don't and at Faith Journey is didn't wasn't 185 00:11:22.775 --> 00:11:26.395 didn't have enough gravitas to me. So that I landed on Faith Montage 186 00:11:26.830 --> 00:11:30.030 as a way that you could actually dip into it at any point, but it 187 00:11:30.030 --> 00:11:33.790 does help you kind of start to end think about this, 188 00:11:33.790 --> 00:11:37.515 the fullness. I mean, the book itself is an audacious, super 189 00:11:37.515 --> 00:11:41.355 arrogant project. Right? They asked me to write a 190 00:11:41.355 --> 00:11:45.149 book on Christianity And I'm like, well, the 191 00:11:45.149 --> 00:11:48.670 whole thing? Like all of it? Like, yeah. Like, what? Can you see the whole 192 00:11:48.670 --> 00:11:52.425 thing? Yeah. And I'm like, sure. That's so, you know, I had written this 193 00:11:52.425 --> 00:11:56.265 montage and thought it could be something and we had begun to navigate 194 00:11:56.265 --> 00:11:59.945 and like, it it was originally gonna be a memoir, more of a spiritual 195 00:11:59.945 --> 00:12:03.470 memoir. And those are not that if you're, unless you're famous, those don't really work 196 00:12:03.470 --> 00:12:07.230 very well. And they wanted something that had more longevity, which I really 197 00:12:07.230 --> 00:12:10.785 appreciated. And so they're like, no, no, no. Let's frame this as 198 00:12:11.085 --> 00:12:14.925 a primer on progressive Christianity. And then that way it 199 00:12:14.925 --> 00:12:18.720 is the what's kind of the what's next as you are 200 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:22.259 reaching a healthy point of deconstruction. 201 00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:26.155 Like, if there is still a lot of trauma involved in your deconstruction, you may 202 00:12:26.155 --> 00:12:29.995 not be open to this quite yet, but if you're like, okay, 203 00:12:29.995 --> 00:12:33.730 I'm still curious about the church. There's still something 204 00:12:33.730 --> 00:12:37.490 here. This is the entry point into that or an invitation into 205 00:12:37.490 --> 00:12:41.330 one way to think about it. So that's kind of the montage for 206 00:12:41.330 --> 00:12:44.635 me. Gives it gave me a little more freedom to be a little bit more 207 00:12:44.635 --> 00:12:48.475 creative. I I yeah. I I loved writing it. I 208 00:12:48.475 --> 00:12:51.920 love reading it Actually, I love reading my own stuff. That's not an arrogance. I 209 00:12:51.920 --> 00:12:55.440 think it's more of a a nod to if you're not 210 00:12:55.440 --> 00:12:58.945 transformed by your own work, then nobody else will be. And so 211 00:12:58.945 --> 00:13:01.845 I I still believe greatly what I've written 212 00:13:02.385 --> 00:13:05.825 and, I love watching how other people are using it and 213 00:13:05.825 --> 00:13:09.540 liturgy and other stuff. But, yeah. So the montage, 214 00:13:09.540 --> 00:13:13.139 I mean, again, it's not much deeper than that's what I grew up with in 215 00:13:13.139 --> 00:13:16.665 the movies, But Yeah. It does it does fit a 216 00:13:16.665 --> 00:13:20.425 purpose. Yeah. Well, I love that imagery of it. Was there a 217 00:13:20.425 --> 00:13:24.150 process that you used to develop your own montage? 218 00:13:24.690 --> 00:13:28.370 Yeah. I so I did. I I the first round, I just wrote, like 219 00:13:28.450 --> 00:13:31.975 and then, as I started to think about, okay, this could be a 220 00:13:31.975 --> 00:13:34.775 project of some kind. I don't know what exactly it was gonna be, probably a 221 00:13:34.775 --> 00:13:38.310 book, but I started to think about what what was 222 00:13:38.310 --> 00:13:41.910 missing. And so I actually, for those that aren't 223 00:13:41.910 --> 00:13:45.555 connected with me online, I'm super over 224 00:13:46.415 --> 00:13:50.175 visible about everything I do depending on your context. And so I'm like, 225 00:13:50.175 --> 00:13:53.860 okay, here I'm writing this thing, what's missing? Like what 226 00:13:53.860 --> 00:13:57.380 needs to be answered? And so I shared it out ahead of time and 227 00:13:57.380 --> 00:14:01.145 people kind of said, well, this they and I'm like, I don't you can like 228 00:14:01.145 --> 00:14:04.505 or not like parts, which is fine. But are there things that if you were 229 00:14:04.505 --> 00:14:07.910 handing this to somebody who was curious about faith, 230 00:14:07.910 --> 00:14:11.590 even for the first time, what do you wanna make sure that gets 231 00:14:11.590 --> 00:14:15.270 touched upon? Like and not just like these big theological questions, 232 00:14:15.270 --> 00:14:18.795 but, I was a church planter. I started a church in San Francisco a 233 00:14:18.795 --> 00:14:22.635 1000000 years ago and people didn't really care about the big theological things. 234 00:14:22.635 --> 00:14:26.080 Like, why are there so many different kinds of churches? Like, that was a core 235 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:29.920 question. Why do we baptize people in so many different ways? Like, why 236 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:33.125 and so I try to do that and get it all the way to the 237 00:14:33.125 --> 00:14:36.185 ground level as well as infusing in 238 00:14:36.805 --> 00:14:40.630 when we talk about God's plan, that can be really dangerous, but 239 00:14:40.630 --> 00:14:44.310 here's a way to think about it that is more in line with the rest 240 00:14:44.310 --> 00:14:48.110 of our theological space. So, yeah. So I I I did it individually. I crowd 241 00:14:48.110 --> 00:14:51.765 sourced a little bit, which is always individually. I crowd sourced a little bit, 242 00:14:51.765 --> 00:14:55.605 which has always been my vibe is, here is something 243 00:14:55.605 --> 00:14:58.550 I'm offering. Help me figure out and make this better. 244 00:14:59.490 --> 00:15:03.250 And then here's where we go together. And I'm I generally am pretty 245 00:15:03.250 --> 00:15:06.945 good about separating people's opinion and 246 00:15:06.945 --> 00:15:10.625 likes and dislikes versus content that could help be better. So, 247 00:15:10.865 --> 00:15:13.205 yeah. So that's what I did. I just shared it out, 248 00:15:15.060 --> 00:15:18.520 And people are always interested in talking about a theology 249 00:15:18.740 --> 00:15:22.415 that would, help them in their work, for 250 00:15:22.415 --> 00:15:26.175 sure. I mean, it's really interesting though. I had colleagues read this book 251 00:15:26.175 --> 00:15:29.935 ahead of time, as we were going through some review times and, and 252 00:15:29.935 --> 00:15:33.730 one person said to me, oh, I could've wrote that book. And 253 00:15:33.730 --> 00:15:36.310 I was like, but you didn't. So 254 00:15:37.570 --> 00:15:40.950 but it's it's a because it's a conglomeration of a lot of 255 00:15:41.315 --> 00:15:45.154 people's thinking. So a lot of people won't find a lot 256 00:15:45.154 --> 00:15:48.454 much surprising, but I think it will be an accessible, 257 00:15:48.675 --> 00:15:52.450 clearer version of what many of us have believed for a long 258 00:15:52.450 --> 00:15:56.230 time. Yeah. Well, maybe your colleague was expressing maybe 259 00:15:56.370 --> 00:15:59.895 not sort of the surety that he or she could have 260 00:15:59.895 --> 00:16:03.335 written the book, but that almost that they wished they had written the book. I 261 00:16:03.335 --> 00:16:06.670 mean Oh, yeah. Totally. No. It's a it was a good friend. It was Yeah. 262 00:16:06.670 --> 00:16:08.910 Yeah. Good friend of mine. A good friend of mine is, like, oh, I can 263 00:16:08.910 --> 00:16:11.710 write that. I'm like, yeah. But you didn't. So just read it and let me 264 00:16:11.710 --> 00:16:15.214 know what you think. Something that resonates with us. It 265 00:16:15.214 --> 00:16:19.055 oftentimes I I find is something that, gives words to something 266 00:16:19.055 --> 00:16:22.834 that I feel but hadn't been able to express before. And Yeah. 267 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:26.160 And it sounds like you're really trying to invest in doing that for a lot 268 00:16:26.160 --> 00:16:29.860 of people. Like, when they give you this mandate to, okay, you write a manifesto 269 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:33.745 for progressive Christianity, like, it's kinda kinda 270 00:16:34.065 --> 00:16:37.905 yeah. Kinda boiling down to that, though. Isn't it? Like, giving I mean, 271 00:16:37.905 --> 00:16:41.490 it it really it it really is. And I'm very I'm very 272 00:16:41.490 --> 00:16:45.250 cautious as folks read this, that the definitive article I use all the time 273 00:16:45.250 --> 00:16:48.945 is a, not the. And so that it is a version. 274 00:16:48.945 --> 00:16:52.385 It is, you know, it's it's a version of the gospel as 275 00:16:52.385 --> 00:16:55.745 opposed to the version. Like it what I hope it does is it's it is 276 00:16:55.745 --> 00:16:59.579 it gives a good baseline from which people can spring off into 277 00:16:59.579 --> 00:17:02.380 their own thinking about things. And I do a whole section on we are all 278 00:17:02.380 --> 00:17:06.085 theologians at the beginning to kind of give permission 279 00:17:06.085 --> 00:17:09.845 and challenge all of us to have these conversations about God. And 280 00:17:09.845 --> 00:17:13.365 if that's something folks are curious about, then here's a way to 281 00:17:13.365 --> 00:17:17.119 begin to prime the pump around that. Not just like, well, what do you think 282 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:20.800 about God? Well, it's not really helpful if you've never really had to 283 00:17:20.800 --> 00:17:24.224 think about that before or the only version you have is something that 284 00:17:24.224 --> 00:17:27.984 you are rejecting right now. Like, well, here's 285 00:17:27.984 --> 00:17:31.560 another way to think about it. And and what I've heard is that 286 00:17:31.560 --> 00:17:35.240 it's pretty accessible, and it does give some language to some things that 287 00:17:35.240 --> 00:17:39.080 people have been thinking. So, yeah. That's that's exactly what I'm trying 288 00:17:39.080 --> 00:17:42.735 to do. Yeah. One of the 289 00:17:42.735 --> 00:17:46.495 aspects that you wrote about that resonated with me is the idea 290 00:17:46.495 --> 00:17:50.230 that we we struggle to articulate what it is that we do believe. 291 00:17:50.610 --> 00:17:54.289 We don't have that same struggle often articulating what we don't believe. So 292 00:17:54.529 --> 00:17:58.355 Yeah. And and I can think about it this way. A term 293 00:17:58.355 --> 00:18:01.795 like salvation, like, I can I can tell you what I don't believe 294 00:18:01.795 --> 00:18:05.610 about salvation? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What I kinda rail against when we use that 295 00:18:05.610 --> 00:18:08.830 word, but it it becomes a little bit tougher to express 296 00:18:09.370 --> 00:18:13.085 the the proactive or, positively aligned 297 00:18:13.225 --> 00:18:16.825 aspects of what I do. So how how did this 298 00:18:16.825 --> 00:18:20.284 process of writing this book help you to articulate 299 00:18:21.570 --> 00:18:25.270 some of the things that you do believe? Well, I will say 300 00:18:25.330 --> 00:18:26.630 that it helped me 301 00:18:29.405 --> 00:18:33.005 really refine what I believe. I mean, it it's one of those things that again 302 00:18:33.005 --> 00:18:36.845 that that when you said before, it's giving words to people. I think folks 303 00:18:36.845 --> 00:18:40.240 are like, ah, yes. That's yes. This is what I'm thinking. 304 00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:43.460 Because we fall back onto, like, just trite 305 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:47.380 phrases and language in our liturgy, in our in our 306 00:18:48.605 --> 00:18:52.445 in our hymns. And we just buy into these things. Like a 307 00:18:52.445 --> 00:18:55.985 great way that I think about salvation, right, is we always think about 308 00:18:56.205 --> 00:18:59.559 it as the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And I was like, actually, 309 00:19:00.100 --> 00:19:03.700 I think it's the life, death and resurrection. Like it is 310 00:19:03.780 --> 00:19:06.795 we we are connected to God through the living 311 00:19:07.495 --> 00:19:11.195 Jesus, but all of our theological language is always death and resurrection 312 00:19:11.655 --> 00:19:15.470 as opposed to, well, let's broaden that out and expand that out. I'm not 313 00:19:15.470 --> 00:19:19.309 getting rid of the death or the resurrection. What I'm talking about is 314 00:19:19.309 --> 00:19:22.664 it's fuller than that, And that makes more sense to 315 00:19:22.664 --> 00:19:26.264 people around like, oh, I'm experiencing this 316 00:19:26.264 --> 00:19:29.705 connection to God through the fullness of who Jesus 317 00:19:29.705 --> 00:19:33.430 is. And so forcing me to articulate and that what really 318 00:19:33.430 --> 00:19:36.970 forced me to do is when you have to do all this in 40,000 319 00:19:37.110 --> 00:19:40.145 words, you really have to choose 320 00:19:40.684 --> 00:19:43.905 words well. Like I my editor was amazing 321 00:19:44.845 --> 00:19:48.230 and gentle when she needed to be and also just challenging when it was 322 00:19:48.230 --> 00:19:52.070 important around. Okay. So what do you really like? We're 323 00:19:52.070 --> 00:19:55.855 we're stripping this down. Give me the 4 sentences. What does 324 00:19:55.855 --> 00:19:59.235 baptism mean? I'm like, Oh my God, 4 sentences. Right? But 325 00:19:59.615 --> 00:20:03.294 we have to do that. And I think that the challenge for some of us 326 00:20:03.294 --> 00:20:06.930 who I think, land in this space is 327 00:20:06.930 --> 00:20:10.610 we over explain everything. And we 328 00:20:10.610 --> 00:20:13.510 use a lot of words when we don't need to, 329 00:20:14.290 --> 00:20:17.875 and we almost use our, our, 330 00:20:17.875 --> 00:20:21.635 our words as a crutch sometimes. And we, then we spin 331 00:20:21.635 --> 00:20:25.120 ourselves into confusing for people. 332 00:20:25.500 --> 00:20:28.960 When I think, you know, if we're talking to people who are new or 333 00:20:29.020 --> 00:20:32.620 reintroducing themselves to this version, we have to be pretty 334 00:20:32.620 --> 00:20:35.945 clear. And so I think everybody needs to work on that. And that's what that's 335 00:20:35.945 --> 00:20:39.385 one of the hopes is that you like so then what do you think about 336 00:20:39.385 --> 00:20:42.649 salvation? You have to practice that. Like that's it's it's not as if I was 337 00:20:42.649 --> 00:20:46.330 like, oh, yeah. Salvation in 4 4 sentences. It was more like, okay. Here's 338 00:20:46.330 --> 00:20:49.690 my the first version was like 70,000 words or something. I don't know what it 339 00:20:49.690 --> 00:20:53.505 was. We had to trim it all the way back. Wow. Because I wanted everybody 340 00:20:53.505 --> 00:20:57.345 to know every nuance about the 7 versions of 341 00:20:57.345 --> 00:21:00.990 atonement that are out there. And she's like, we can't do that. You 342 00:21:00.990 --> 00:21:04.290 gotta no. Name these other things. 343 00:21:04.670 --> 00:21:08.210 Which are the problematic ones? Why? And then where do you land? 344 00:21:08.350 --> 00:21:12.174 Right? And we should all try to go 345 00:21:12.174 --> 00:21:15.750 through those process together and figure out what what do we really believe so that 346 00:21:15.830 --> 00:21:19.670 can articulate to people who are who are curious about it. Well, how 347 00:21:19.670 --> 00:21:23.510 might your book help individuals then articulate Mhmm. What it is 348 00:21:23.510 --> 00:21:25.350 that they believe? Is it the process of building the montage? Or 349 00:21:34.940 --> 00:21:38.460 is, you know, pastors in some ways, because most of my colleague, I could have 350 00:21:38.460 --> 00:21:42.059 done this. That's not really for them. I always tell them like, well, that's this 351 00:21:42.059 --> 00:21:45.835 isn't really for you. I may write a book for ministers later, but this 352 00:21:45.835 --> 00:21:49.434 one is for the peep what I hope it's like, you're like, oh, yeah. This 353 00:21:49.434 --> 00:21:51.855 is something that I can give to people 354 00:21:53.150 --> 00:21:56.830 to to spark conversation. There's 355 00:21:56.830 --> 00:22:00.425 about 6 churches that used it for their summer series. Right? They broke it down 356 00:22:00.425 --> 00:22:04.265 and used it. It's an easy thing if you need programming. Like, just 357 00:22:04.265 --> 00:22:08.105 hand them this and you block it out. For others who are reading it, say 358 00:22:08.105 --> 00:22:11.810 you're, just a person in the pew as they say. 359 00:22:12.350 --> 00:22:15.790 What I've heard is that it gives a little 360 00:22:15.790 --> 00:22:19.255 more texture to things that they've been 361 00:22:19.255 --> 00:22:22.934 saying out loud and singing about for a long time, but 362 00:22:22.934 --> 00:22:26.135 didn't really know what it meant. Mhmm. And it's 363 00:22:26.600 --> 00:22:30.344 they've been in the church too long to ask. Right? That 364 00:22:30.344 --> 00:22:34.095 awkward moment where you're like, I you know, I've been hanging 365 00:22:34.095 --> 00:22:36.335 out with you for a few months, but I still don't know your name, and 366 00:22:36.335 --> 00:22:40.015 now it's too late for me to ask what your name is. There has been 367 00:22:40.015 --> 00:22:43.750 a lot of that. That's kind of unexpected. I actually like that there's been 368 00:22:43.870 --> 00:22:47.470 they're like, oh, okay. So that's that's what I've been thinking this might 369 00:22:47.470 --> 00:22:50.130 mean, but we don't really, 370 00:22:51.395 --> 00:22:55.235 you know, we talk about God's plan all the time. And, you know, 371 00:22:55.235 --> 00:22:58.195 and then we sing about it and all these things. Anyway, so that Yeah. And 372 00:22:58.195 --> 00:23:01.790 then the last group are folks that are just curious about faith. So those are 373 00:23:01.790 --> 00:23:05.630 on that post deconstruction space. Those who have been 374 00:23:05.630 --> 00:23:08.210 dabbling have a cultural, 375 00:23:10.865 --> 00:23:14.705 maybe obligatory connection to church, but still something draws it to 376 00:23:14.785 --> 00:23:18.085 draws them to church and spirituality. And this has been 377 00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:22.720 a way for folks to get a little more meat on what they've been 378 00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:26.294 experiencing. So that those are kind of how people are 379 00:23:26.294 --> 00:23:29.674 doing. And the questions at the back, you know, are both group and individuals. 380 00:23:29.735 --> 00:23:33.220 So there's a group pick a question each time. 381 00:23:34.419 --> 00:23:37.539 I know some of the prayers are being used in places just so that folks 382 00:23:37.539 --> 00:23:41.380 can it's, what I try to do is weave all the elements of what living 383 00:23:41.380 --> 00:23:45.215 faith may be. So individual, group, prayer, 384 00:23:46.475 --> 00:23:50.075 and and I hope the stories are inviting. They they will hopefully age 385 00:23:50.075 --> 00:23:53.880 well, and give, like, kind of this fullness of how we 386 00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:57.660 all experience faith throughout our life. You mentioned us 387 00:23:58.295 --> 00:24:01.975 having a a need to simplify what it is that, 388 00:24:02.455 --> 00:24:06.055 that we think about and even how we express it. But you 389 00:24:06.055 --> 00:24:09.600 also note that, it's possible that God created 390 00:24:09.600 --> 00:24:13.335 human beings to be really complex. So Mhmm. How does 391 00:24:13.654 --> 00:24:17.335 recognizing our complexity and that god created us in this 392 00:24:17.335 --> 00:24:20.955 kind of complex range of of human experience, 393 00:24:21.654 --> 00:24:24.860 how does that change the way that we might approach faith? 394 00:24:26.679 --> 00:24:29.580 I I mean, I think there's lots of ways, but my my primary 395 00:24:30.654 --> 00:24:34.174 thing these days has been, we 396 00:24:34.174 --> 00:24:37.934 either believe that everybody is a com, you know, is 397 00:24:37.934 --> 00:24:41.100 a complex created, you know, child of God 398 00:24:41.799 --> 00:24:45.400 or we don't. And then does that 399 00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:49.125 matter how we treat everyone? So even 400 00:24:49.125 --> 00:24:52.884 our deepest enemies, right? We're told clearly in scripture, there's lots of things that 401 00:24:52.884 --> 00:24:56.485 are easier to follow, right? Feed those who are hungry, clothe those who are 402 00:24:56.485 --> 00:24:59.960 naked. We might even visit people who incarcerated, give 403 00:24:59.960 --> 00:25:03.659 drink, you know, all those things that those are great and easy, but, 404 00:25:05.195 --> 00:25:09.035 bless your enemy and do not curse them. We are 405 00:25:09.035 --> 00:25:12.495 not good at that. And that goes both ways. And I think that by 406 00:25:13.275 --> 00:25:16.940 truly believing that even our worst 407 00:25:16.940 --> 00:25:20.300 enemy is created and 408 00:25:20.300 --> 00:25:24.145 complex, we have to allow that to change how we behave. Now 409 00:25:24.145 --> 00:25:27.685 that doesn't mean we agree or we affirm 410 00:25:27.745 --> 00:25:31.240 actions or beliefs or any of that. It just means that how we 411 00:25:31.240 --> 00:25:34.700 respond to that person can't diminish their humanity. 412 00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:39.145 And I think that's that's what the world wants. You know, 413 00:25:39.684 --> 00:25:43.445 war and violence feeds on dehumanization. Mhmm. And 414 00:25:43.445 --> 00:25:47.280 if we can make small and large steps 415 00:25:47.280 --> 00:25:50.880 in how we interact with with each other online or what we say about those 416 00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:53.930 we disagree with in in conversation, then, 417 00:25:55.825 --> 00:25:59.665 we are we are saying to evil basically not today. Like you're not 418 00:25:59.665 --> 00:26:03.265 gonna win today. And I think that that's really hard in these 419 00:26:03.265 --> 00:26:06.990 political times, but really necessary. I mean, 420 00:26:06.990 --> 00:26:10.430 I I just think that the more we dehumanize other 421 00:26:10.430 --> 00:26:14.215 people, the more we are not gonna find 422 00:26:14.215 --> 00:26:17.895 any common space. And we can't do 423 00:26:17.895 --> 00:26:21.415 it as a transactional thing. Right? We 424 00:26:21.415 --> 00:26:24.390 can't, Well, they don't do it to us. Well, they don't do they don't humanize 425 00:26:24.390 --> 00:26:28.230 us. So why would I humanize them? Like, well, I don't humanize another 426 00:26:28.230 --> 00:26:31.075 person just so it gets me something. I do that because God has said to 427 00:26:31.075 --> 00:26:34.795 me, I see you as this complex person. In response 428 00:26:34.795 --> 00:26:38.395 to that, you should see all of, you know, my 429 00:26:38.395 --> 00:26:41.670 creation as such. And that is hard 430 00:26:41.970 --> 00:26:45.510 and excruciating. And it's it's sometimes more fun 431 00:26:45.970 --> 00:26:49.485 to just give it right back. Yeah. But I think it only lasts for a 432 00:26:49.485 --> 00:26:53.004 moment, and then we realize we're not that's not a 433 00:26:53.004 --> 00:26:56.800 helpful people to be. So are are 434 00:26:57.500 --> 00:27:01.260 there practices that you use to kinda check yourself, or 435 00:27:01.260 --> 00:27:04.775 to keep you grounded in looking at people? I'm super annoying. I'm super annoying 436 00:27:04.775 --> 00:27:08.295 to others and myself. So like if 437 00:27:08.295 --> 00:27:12.055 somebody says they're just they're a pile 438 00:27:12.055 --> 00:27:15.700 of whatever. I'm like, are they actually a 439 00:27:15.700 --> 00:27:19.300 pile of that, or are they just doing things that are that? Mhmm. I 440 00:27:19.300 --> 00:27:23.075 mean, Yeah. How do we separate right? Yes. I see that as 441 00:27:23.075 --> 00:27:26.675 being annoying. Right? Yeah. There you go. My wife is 442 00:27:26.675 --> 00:27:30.200 particularly excited. Like, oh, they're they're trash. I'm like, well, 443 00:27:30.740 --> 00:27:34.580 are they? Like, is anybody trash? I mean, that's what I 444 00:27:34.580 --> 00:27:38.095 say about black and brown bodies in the US. Right? We have decided 445 00:27:38.235 --> 00:27:41.835 that they can be disposed of and made indivisible in 446 00:27:41.835 --> 00:27:45.460 our incarcerals our carceral system. I don't think 447 00:27:45.460 --> 00:27:48.659 that's true. We wouldn't want anybody to think that. And I'm not so I'm not 448 00:27:48.659 --> 00:27:52.419 gonna reciprocate that to other people. Now, do 449 00:27:52.419 --> 00:27:55.495 they need to be do people need to be held accountable for the action? Yes. 450 00:27:55.635 --> 00:27:59.315 But at their very core being, they are not trash. Right? And 451 00:27:59.315 --> 00:28:01.815 so I really watch myself 452 00:28:02.675 --> 00:28:06.380 and watch my language, watch what I 453 00:28:06.380 --> 00:28:09.740 pass on online, watch what I'm gonna forward or what I'm gonna 454 00:28:09.740 --> 00:28:12.800 share because I don't wanna add to 455 00:28:13.625 --> 00:28:17.304 this idea that we can just diminish somebody else's humanity without even thinking about 456 00:28:17.304 --> 00:28:20.825 it. And I think that that is too easy. So I'm I am very 457 00:28:20.825 --> 00:28:24.260 disciplined about thinking about everything that I share 458 00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:28.420 or say, the whether it 459 00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:32.315 it it it diminishes our humanity. And I still wanna challenge, like, I'm not a 460 00:28:32.315 --> 00:28:35.995 big fan of former president Trump. I'm not a huge fan of current 461 00:28:35.995 --> 00:28:39.580 president Biden either, but I'm not going to fall into ableism and ageism 462 00:28:39.580 --> 00:28:43.280 and all those things. Right? I'm gonna challenge thoughts, beliefs, 463 00:28:44.059 --> 00:28:47.615 but not ability, age, you know, those kinds of things. 464 00:28:47.755 --> 00:28:51.215 And and that's hard to do because it's so easy. It's just sitting right there. 465 00:28:51.755 --> 00:28:55.559 And I but I think that's that's an easy lazy way out. And I think 466 00:28:55.559 --> 00:28:59.240 we're called to something better. Yeah. Well, and it's easy to do, 467 00:28:59.240 --> 00:29:03.080 especially when the snowball of of public opinion is kinda cascading down 468 00:29:03.080 --> 00:29:06.765 that way. Right? Oh, yeah. Yep. Yep. As we're recording this, it kinda is. But 469 00:29:06.925 --> 00:29:10.545 Yep. Exactly. What, you mentioned that 470 00:29:10.605 --> 00:29:14.420 that you learned something in in reading your own writing. How 471 00:29:14.420 --> 00:29:18.200 was the the process of putting this thing together? A learning expedition 472 00:29:18.260 --> 00:29:20.840 for you, or how are you transformed by it? 473 00:29:22.664 --> 00:29:26.505 Oh. I am fully 474 00:29:26.505 --> 00:29:30.070 committed to my faith. Like I I just, 475 00:29:30.470 --> 00:29:34.070 and people will say but, you know, isn't well then is it the only way? 476 00:29:34.070 --> 00:29:37.565 And I'm like, no. I clearly I say in the book, Jesus is not the 477 00:29:37.565 --> 00:29:41.325 only way to experience God and the divine. And I'm 478 00:29:41.325 --> 00:29:44.100 very clear with that. And like what about when it says And I'm like, okay, 479 00:29:44.100 --> 00:29:47.940 we're not getting into scripture wars because, those are exhausting to 480 00:29:47.940 --> 00:29:51.700 me and useless. But I'm like, I can live with attention. And I actually 481 00:29:51.700 --> 00:29:55.545 think that sometimes scripture is wrong. So there you go. 482 00:29:55.765 --> 00:29:59.045 And so, you know, when when somebody says to me, well, Jesus says, only way 483 00:29:59.045 --> 00:30:01.870 through God is through me. I'm like, I can fully say that for myself. That 484 00:30:01.870 --> 00:30:05.470 is my only way to God. Is that for everybody? No. There's just too much 485 00:30:05.470 --> 00:30:08.595 in the world that says to me that's not the only way. The people have 486 00:30:08.595 --> 00:30:12.434 connected to God in whatever form God is taking in many, many 487 00:30:12.434 --> 00:30:15.895 ways. And so, you know, there there's all the mental gymnastics 488 00:30:16.035 --> 00:30:19.730 that others have done to talk about people who've never 489 00:30:19.730 --> 00:30:23.490 had an opportunity to experience Jesus and the the need to 490 00:30:23.490 --> 00:30:27.044 to evangelize and be missionaries and all that kind of stuff. I just 491 00:30:27.184 --> 00:30:30.404 don't fall into that. So but I have I like, I'm like, yeah. 492 00:30:30.544 --> 00:30:34.200 I am committed to this adventure with 493 00:30:34.200 --> 00:30:37.960 Jesus. And I would say that one of the things that I think surprises 494 00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:41.740 people in there is I'm still committed to the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ because 495 00:30:42.440 --> 00:30:46.285 it is so outrageous. And I I just think 496 00:30:46.905 --> 00:30:50.605 looking at the world, we play our part and we we 497 00:30:50.820 --> 00:30:54.020 respond to the invitations that God gives us to be part of healing and hope 498 00:30:54.020 --> 00:30:57.560 in the world, but there's got to be something more that's gonna 499 00:30:57.755 --> 00:31:01.455 make this place better or is making it better in places I don't know. 500 00:31:01.915 --> 00:31:05.435 Because if humans could do it, I think we would, and we just don't have 501 00:31:05.435 --> 00:31:09.200 the capacity, the will, whatever it is to do it. And so I think 502 00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:12.500 there has to be something as unimaginable and outrageous 503 00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:16.465 as a body coming back to life. And I'm, 504 00:31:16.465 --> 00:31:20.145 you know, I don't try to explain it away. I don't try to I'm not 505 00:31:20.145 --> 00:31:23.740 one of those that it does like, he will say it didn't have to happen 506 00:31:23.740 --> 00:31:27.420 for it to be true. I just like, I actually think it's true 507 00:31:27.420 --> 00:31:30.925 because it happened. And so here we go. And what do we do with that? 508 00:31:32.045 --> 00:31:35.805 And again, people come at that in different ways, but that's where I land in 509 00:31:35.805 --> 00:31:39.639 in the book. And ever so, 510 00:31:41.139 --> 00:31:44.980 kind of been reinforced in that as as I wrote this. And my 511 00:31:44.980 --> 00:31:48.765 editor, Valerie, just helped me to really think through what are you trying to say, 512 00:31:48.925 --> 00:31:52.525 a lot and and strip away my 513 00:31:52.685 --> 00:31:56.445 I think many of our tendencies to to fill in spaces that don't 514 00:31:56.445 --> 00:32:00.220 need to be there and be clearer about what we 515 00:32:00.220 --> 00:32:03.980 believe. And I think that was really helpful for me. Well, I 516 00:32:03.980 --> 00:32:07.505 appreciate you bringing up the resurrection because it moves us from, 517 00:32:07.745 --> 00:32:11.505 something that we think about or ideologize into something 518 00:32:11.505 --> 00:32:15.270 that's in flesh. Right? Yep. For us as as Christians, 519 00:32:15.270 --> 00:32:18.890 like, the the ultimate idea is, like, here is faith in flesh, and 520 00:32:19.030 --> 00:32:22.735 and it's you know, god's love is expressed in this physical resurrection. 521 00:32:24.395 --> 00:32:28.235 So how do you see the church in 522 00:32:28.235 --> 00:32:32.000 this day and age kind of in a gospel that is 523 00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:35.059 related to love and kindness and justice? 524 00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:39.684 Oh, that's a wheelhouse question for you as a Methodist, me as a Presbyterian. Right? 525 00:32:39.684 --> 00:32:43.365 I mean, you know, we we were 526 00:32:43.365 --> 00:32:47.010 talking a little bit before that, you know, the Presbyterian Church USA of of 527 00:32:47.010 --> 00:32:50.850 my my denomination, we are a very different church than we 528 00:32:50.850 --> 00:32:54.375 were 10 years ago, 15 years ago. I mean, when I was I held an 529 00:32:54.375 --> 00:32:58.055 office in our denomination, that's kind of you 530 00:32:58.375 --> 00:33:02.170 do you have a general secretary? I can't remember what's the hierarchy of something. 531 00:33:02.170 --> 00:33:05.930 Whenever you're We have bishops. Yep. Bishops. Okay. So you're bishops. Right? So The council 532 00:33:05.930 --> 00:33:08.970 of bishops. So I held I held the same I held the highest office in 533 00:33:08.970 --> 00:33:12.545 our denomination, And we were not at that point ordaining LGBTQI 534 00:33:12.845 --> 00:33:16.145 people. Our marriage was still between 1 man and 1 woman. 535 00:33:16.925 --> 00:33:20.380 There were a variety of things. And at our last general assembly, 536 00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:24.840 we just passed a whole thing that is going to 537 00:33:24.840 --> 00:33:28.455 be approved that includes, sexual orientation, 538 00:33:28.515 --> 00:33:32.295 transgender in our constitution. That, I mean, 539 00:33:32.835 --> 00:33:36.350 this is talk about, you know, resurrection 540 00:33:36.730 --> 00:33:39.790 people. Like, we we were in a place where we were, 541 00:33:40.410 --> 00:33:44.090 you know, we were we were death dealing in many ways by what we were 542 00:33:44.090 --> 00:33:47.895 saying theologically, and we are now saying, no. These are 543 00:33:47.895 --> 00:33:51.575 things that give us life and depth and texture to who we believe God's people 544 00:33:51.575 --> 00:33:54.830 are. We still have a long way to go in living those out day to 545 00:33:54.830 --> 00:33:58.130 day. But as a church, like, 546 00:33:58.510 --> 00:34:01.914 every time something pops up from the PCUSA on Instagram or something and 547 00:34:01.914 --> 00:34:05.755 it's like, day of trans visibility. And I'm like, this is how 548 00:34:05.755 --> 00:34:09.514 did it my church is How did we get here? Yeah. What what happened? I'm 549 00:34:09.514 --> 00:34:13.119 like I'm just like before there was hemming and hawing 550 00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:16.960 whether you put something, you know, about anything. And they have to 551 00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:20.714 go practically through legal before you could put something. And now there's this 552 00:34:20.714 --> 00:34:23.454 stuff coming on. I'm like, oh my goodness. This is amazing. 553 00:34:24.315 --> 00:34:26.574 Now we just have to figure out how do we 554 00:34:27.870 --> 00:34:31.550 share that. We're terrible at sharing what we believe. I I don't know 555 00:34:31.550 --> 00:34:35.150 if the methods are any better, but but it's strange. We're terrible at it. We 556 00:34:35.150 --> 00:34:38.734 have rested on our laurels. You know, you'll find us if you want 557 00:34:38.734 --> 00:34:42.415 us. And I'm like, oh my goodness. We have this great kind of 558 00:34:42.415 --> 00:34:46.139 message right now. And it and it's not just about growth, 559 00:34:46.139 --> 00:34:49.980 but it's about impact in people's lives Mhmm. 560 00:34:50.060 --> 00:34:53.685 Creating belonging. I mean, we're just doing some amazing stuff. And so I 561 00:34:53.685 --> 00:34:57.525 I feel like we as a denomination and others are all moving. Now there are 562 00:34:57.525 --> 00:35:01.285 some that are moving in another direction and doubling down on some of 563 00:35:01.285 --> 00:35:04.820 that exclusion, but we're not. And I'm like, I am overjoyed 564 00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:08.560 with where we're headed as a church and where where you all are headed and 565 00:35:08.560 --> 00:35:12.135 and others have been heading. It's it's a beautiful, 566 00:35:12.194 --> 00:35:15.635 welcoming, expansive, you 567 00:35:15.635 --> 00:35:19.099 know, expression of of Jesus in the world. And I I just feel 568 00:35:19.099 --> 00:35:22.780 like there's so many people that that faith has been dead. We 569 00:35:22.780 --> 00:35:26.240 have tried to say no. It's it's living and 570 00:35:26.535 --> 00:35:30.375 again, not perfect, but there is some good life coming out of some 571 00:35:30.375 --> 00:35:33.255 of these places now. But you've just come off of several weeks on the road. 572 00:35:33.255 --> 00:35:36.510 The book has just come out. So you may answer this question just being like, 573 00:35:36.510 --> 00:35:40.210 I'm just gonna rest. But what are you dreaming about doing next? 574 00:35:40.590 --> 00:35:44.145 Yeah. Well, actually, it's a really good question, for me because I 575 00:35:44.165 --> 00:35:47.965 have been in this I mean, for Gen Xer to say, I've been in 576 00:35:47.965 --> 00:35:51.745 this anxious time. I mean, what what Gen Xer is not ever always. 577 00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:56.960 But, I I've been in full time ministry for a long time. I've I've 578 00:35:56.960 --> 00:36:00.319 been ordained in the PCUSA for almost 30 years 579 00:36:00.319 --> 00:36:03.964 now. And I've always had my foot in the congregation or in an 580 00:36:03.964 --> 00:36:07.805 organization and I've done the writing and speaking kind of on the side. 581 00:36:07.805 --> 00:36:11.460 And I think sometimes that's there's great 582 00:36:11.460 --> 00:36:14.819 joy in that been for a long time, but I think sometimes when you're splitting 583 00:36:14.819 --> 00:36:18.440 yourself so much, you don't really get to dive into things. It's almost an excuse 584 00:36:18.895 --> 00:36:22.575 not to work on 1 to really kind of figure out. So 585 00:36:22.575 --> 00:36:26.255 I've actually recently decided that I'm gonna be full time writing 586 00:36:26.255 --> 00:36:29.930 and I'm no longer gonna be a pastor, which I I gave up the identity 587 00:36:29.930 --> 00:36:32.569 as a pastor defining me a long time ago, but it is still a little 588 00:36:32.569 --> 00:36:36.325 weird that for at least the next probably 5 years, I'm not 589 00:36:36.325 --> 00:36:40.025 dancing with a congregation or an organist judicatory or anything 590 00:36:40.244 --> 00:36:44.085 in that role as pastor. And I'm gonna be a writer and speaker full 591 00:36:44.085 --> 00:36:47.670 time, which I still have to get used to doing that without rolling on my 592 00:36:47.670 --> 00:36:51.430 own eyes. Because it does feel like when people used to sound like, 593 00:36:51.430 --> 00:36:55.135 oh, must be nice. You're just writing and Yeah. But, 594 00:36:55.135 --> 00:36:58.815 you know, I've had I have a I have a great person who's helping me 595 00:36:58.815 --> 00:37:02.450 kinda get over myself and, really dive into 596 00:37:02.450 --> 00:37:06.150 that and work on the craft. Think about what is missing 597 00:37:06.530 --> 00:37:10.050 kind of in the in the world right now in this context, what can I 598 00:37:10.050 --> 00:37:13.865 offer? And so I'm gonna be writing and speaking and, and 599 00:37:13.865 --> 00:37:17.485 all that for the foreseeable future. I don't I am still 600 00:37:17.625 --> 00:37:21.279 super brand new. Like I haven't even figured out 601 00:37:21.279 --> 00:37:24.880 what that looks like. I have I have a very rough 5 year plan 602 00:37:24.880 --> 00:37:28.494 about things I like to do and then I gotta fill in the okay. Those 603 00:37:28.494 --> 00:37:31.714 are big ideas. What's the first step? 604 00:37:32.255 --> 00:37:35.934 Gotcha. So that's what I'm doing. I'm I'm very excited about it though. 605 00:37:35.934 --> 00:37:39.769 I'm I'm very excited about it. Cool. Well, we appreciate you 606 00:37:39.769 --> 00:37:43.609 joining us today and, well, sharing so much about your experience and 607 00:37:43.609 --> 00:37:47.385 also what you're looking forward to. So, when you do get out that 608 00:37:47.385 --> 00:37:50.685 next book, let's talk again. Yeah. Anytime. Anytime. 609 00:37:52.185 --> 00:37:56.000 Fun times for sure. Do you want the fun to continue? 610 00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:59.599 Well, then check out another episode of the country's 611 00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:03.060 podcast. I think episode number 133 with John Pavlovitz 612 00:38:03.265 --> 00:38:06.645 would be a really good companion piece to this episode. 613 00:38:07.185 --> 00:38:10.950 Also episode 126 with Heather Gilad, that's called church 614 00:38:10.950 --> 00:38:14.790 rethought would match well with this episode too. It has a smooth 615 00:38:14.790 --> 00:38:18.330 finish that pairs well with the okey overtones of this course. 616 00:38:18.765 --> 00:38:22.465 I'll stop. Hey, while you're listening or right now, 617 00:38:22.765 --> 00:38:26.540 leave a rating and or a review. Those reviews help us connect with future 618 00:38:26.540 --> 00:38:30.320 guests. So it's an important part of us being able to deliver meaningful 619 00:38:30.540 --> 00:38:34.080 stories and content for you. The Compass Cup podcast 620 00:38:34.220 --> 00:38:37.895 is brought to you by United Methodist Communications. And 621 00:38:37.895 --> 00:38:41.735 that's all for this episode. We're gonna be back with a new episode in 2 622 00:38:41.735 --> 00:38:45.420 weeks. So I look forward to chatting at you then. In the meantime, 623 00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:45.980 peace.