Welcome to Compass, finding spirituality in the everyday. My name
is Ryan Dunn. I am the host of Compass and we're back. If
you've been anticipating this episode in real time, you'll notice
that we're late in releasing
channels. That should now be resolved. So you can
resume consuming pod, The Compass podcast
on your podcast listening or viewing platform of
choice. In this episode, I got to speak with
Bruce Reyes Chow, who is an influential voice
in progressive Christianity. We discussed his
newfound interest in houseplants. Just kidding. We did. But we
also really got into the evolving future of the church,
advocating for greater diversity, inclusivity,
and a more nuanced portrayal of Christianity
in the media, which is timely as we're releasing this
episode in the course of an American election season that
contains a lot of dialogue around the American witness of
Christianity and explicitly Christian
nationalism. Bruce shares his vision for distilling
complex theological concepts into accessible and
impactful faith montages, which offer a
progressive entry point for those curious about the church. And there's
so much more. Bruce is really a fun person to speak with.
I think that you'll enjoy this listen. If you enjoy
listening to compass on the regular, leave a rating and
or review. It helps us get seen, and it draws more interesting guests
to the podcast. So thank you so much for doing that.
Bruce Reyes Chow, a little bit about him. He's an author, speaker, parent,
consultant, coach, podcaster, and
pastor. He speaks and writes on issues of faith,
technology, race, parenting and church
culture. His most recent book is called Everything Good
About God is True. And the book helps us address
not just what we don't believe, which is easy to express for a lot of
us, but it also addresses how our
lived experiences help refine that which we
do truly believe about God in faith.
So that sounds really cool. Let's meet Bruce Reyes
Chow on the Compass podcast.
Bruce Reyes Chow, thank you so much for joining us. How goes it with
your soul today? Oh, it is good. If if
COVID wasn't hanging out in my household, it'd be even better. So I will
make it through without coughing up a lot. But overall, life
is good. It is nice and toasty out here
whenever this is posting out. We're in that heat wave in California, and it is,
but I'm in a nice cool office. My I'm surround I've been on the road
a lot surrounded by my familiar plants and my well, this is one of my
pandemic hangovers as I got into
houseplants and propagating houseplants. So there you go.
So life is good. Are those the same plants that you got back in
2020? Because they look like they're fantastic. A couple of them are are
babies. Like, they Yeah. I've really gotten into I think
the answer to the question, can you have too many plants, is no.
So I just snip and I and one of the things that I do when
people come over to visit when we are able to do that is I,
invite people to walk through 2 of our rooms and take any potted
plant home that they want. Oh. Because That's so sweet of
you. We just have a bunch of them and my wife is always like, do
we need to buy more plants? I'm like no because I can propagate them now
anyway there you go. Alright. What do you need to know about? Yeah.
It's a podcast today. That's right.
So so do you find that, what is the proper watering amount
and alright. So we've we've rehashed the, the
year 2020. In your book, you address readers in
the possible year of 2050. I would love to
know, like, what do you think the church might look like in the year
2050? Oh, yeah. Oh, gosh. I mean, again,
if I if I could really predict that, you know. So here's what I I
would say is that, for those who do read the book, I am
not one that, is an anti
denominational or anti association or any of those. I just I help to
explain why those exist. And usually it's because how we
make decisions and govern ourselves. And I actually think there is a
lovely mix of the different ways that that people are drawn to
making decisions in our setting. Like, how do you discern the mind of Christ and
the will of God together? And what does that look like? Is it a group
of a smaller group of people that help decide? Is it a larger
group? So what I hope the church looks like in terms of just structurally is
that there are a lot of versions of of how people are engaged
in church in the future that help to give breadth and depth and
texture to how we do church. Now what we believe, what I
hope, I'm just gonna say here's what I hope. I hope that when journalists,
pundits, they wanna say the church.
We have forced them to give more descriptors than that because
right now, the narrative that holds our
attention and gets the play is a very
white conservative Christian nationalist version of the gospel. And when
somebody says that's the church, it gets very little pushback other than
those of us who are like, but that's not the only church and and that
just doesn't you know, it's like, but us, I wanna force those
who are driving cultural narratives to
have to think about different versions of
Christianity. And that's that's is where it's for me, we
we have to help our help the the culture get there. So I'm
just gonna pretend that we've done a great job. And in 2050, when
CNN says the church, they have to say the church, the part of the church
that dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, to help people delineate that we're
not all just this as the default. So that's
I don't know how much money I'd bet on it, but that's my hope. Right.
So there you go. Well, I had this, this question
all lined up for you that I was particularly proud of, and
it had to do with adages and and kind of,
distilling theology into into simplistic sayings.
And and then I realized, like, oh, well, you already kinda came up for
it. It came up with it for us and then the name of your book
about is Everything Good About God is True. But
when I ask the question anyway, even though that might be an answer to
it, in saying that as you talked about the Christian
nationalist aspect of of the church or even the
fundamentalist aspect of the church, like, part of their success, part of the
reason why they get the microphone so much is that their
message can be pretty simple sometimes. Their adages, like, well,
the the Bible says it or God said it. I believe it. That settles
it. Besides maybe everything good
about God is true, are there some similar adages that
might describe this other side of the church? Yeah.
I mean, I think part of why again, you know, huge
generalizations we're speaking of. But why that kind of, you know,
conservative ish version is because they have convinced us
that there is security in
specificity and and that if you can just own these 10
things, then all will be right in the world and with
God. And Mhmm. That never fit well with me. I mean, I didn't grow
up in that. I didn't really wasn't even adjacent to it. I grew up with
its expansive nature of God and that there was great security in
knowing that God was this expansive
place and that God could handle me
in all the versions that I am. I mean, I come out of a small
urban church in Stockton, California. All kinds of trouble
in life and community. And it was a place
where we were reminded that God can handle whatever we bring. And I think that
has always stuck with me is that, you know, there there there are some
folks that leave all that stuff behind when you come into this holy space. And
I'm like, actually, no. No. No. No. Bring it all in. We hold it
together. Right? Bring everything in. Bring everything to the
table because God's love is big enough to hold all of it. And
so I think those figuring out how we distill
without, you know, oversimplifying, you know, what it
means for God to be expansive. Like and this is why the leadership,
we have gotten lazy that we want to overexplain everything, and we
don't know how to distill what we believe into digestible
because we look down in some ways. Right? We look down on that. And I'm
like, well, no. We gotta be able to like, if you can't
summarize your sermon in a in a in a x
length thing, people aren't gonna get it. Like, you
get all that other stuff is great, but if I can't preach a sermon and
then somebody walks away and I'm like, just in a couple of sentences, what was
that about? And if I haven't been able to communicate something, not as
if everybody gets what I'm trying to communicate every time, but they
need to be able I need to be able to so I'm always focusing on
what's that 2 or 3 sentence, one sentence thing that I'm trying to get across
and all this stuff, other kind of bounces. So, you know, I look at things
like you are enough. Yeah. You God loves you and
you are enough. Right? Yeah. It goes against that idea
that you need to be more for God when I think that that's a that's
a you're a transactional theology. If you are
more than God will do this. Whereas I'm like, well, God loves me and tells
me that no matter who I am, I am enough. And out of that love,
then I'm trying to be even better. Right? So, there's lots of those
kinds of things. And I, and in the in the book, this montage that I
go through, there's lots of in there that I think will fit that
same need for people to have something that's bite sized,
but I hope more meaningful. So yeah. So there's, like, quite a few of them
in there. Yeah. Well, let's talk about that montage a little bit. You
Yeah. You endorse kinda creating a faith
montage. So what does that concept really entail?
Well, I mean, I wish it was deeper than I'm a Gen Xer and
every Gen X movie had some kind of montage in it. I
mean, that's that's really what at the core, that's really what
it was. I gotta know then because they always have a soundtrack too. Like, what
what's the soundtrack of your Well, see, it's interesting. So mine would be kind of
like eighties R and B kind of thing where Okay. In other times,
it's gonna be Poppy, like, Dexy's
Midnight Runners. That kind of thing. Like, that'll be,
so but, you know, but for me, montages are great because you knew it was
leading you somewhere, but you just got bits and pieces of it getting you to
the point and it sped the movie along. And that's kind of how I
see this. I could have certainly called it a faith statement, but I was like,
yawn. Like, that's something that we all have and there's
nothing Sounds very ugly about that. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, you know, for those
who are reading it, who kinda come out of the church, faith statements often can
be checklists to what are you supposed to believe in order for
us to be included in this. And I think I did I wanted to get
away from that as well. And I don't and at Faith Journey is didn't wasn't
didn't have enough gravitas to me. So that I landed on Faith Montage
as a way that you could actually dip into it at any point, but it
does help you kind of start to end think about this,
the fullness. I mean, the book itself is an audacious, super
arrogant project. Right? They asked me to write a
book on Christianity And I'm like, well, the
whole thing? Like all of it? Like, yeah. Like, what? Can you see the whole
thing? Yeah. And I'm like, sure. That's so, you know, I had written this
montage and thought it could be something and we had begun to navigate
and like, it it was originally gonna be a memoir, more of a spiritual
memoir. And those are not that if you're, unless you're famous, those don't really work
very well. And they wanted something that had more longevity, which I really
appreciated. And so they're like, no, no, no. Let's frame this as
a primer on progressive Christianity. And then that way it
is the what's kind of the what's next as you are
reaching a healthy point of deconstruction.
Like, if there is still a lot of trauma involved in your deconstruction, you may
not be open to this quite yet, but if you're like, okay,
I'm still curious about the church. There's still something
here. This is the entry point into that or an invitation into
one way to think about it. So that's kind of the montage for
me. Gives it gave me a little more freedom to be a little bit more
creative. I I yeah. I I loved writing it. I
love reading it Actually, I love reading my own stuff. That's not an arrogance. I
think it's more of a a nod to if you're not
transformed by your own work, then nobody else will be. And so
I I still believe greatly what I've written
and, I love watching how other people are using it and
liturgy and other stuff. But, yeah. So the montage,
I mean, again, it's not much deeper than that's what I grew up with in
the movies, But Yeah. It does it does fit a
purpose. Yeah. Well, I love that imagery of it. Was there a
process that you used to develop your own montage?
Yeah. I so I did. I I the first round, I just wrote, like
and then, as I started to think about, okay, this could be a
project of some kind. I don't know what exactly it was gonna be, probably a
book, but I started to think about what what was
missing. And so I actually, for those that aren't
connected with me online, I'm super over
visible about everything I do depending on your context. And so I'm like,
okay, here I'm writing this thing, what's missing? Like what
needs to be answered? And so I shared it out ahead of time and
people kind of said, well, this they and I'm like, I don't you can like
or not like parts, which is fine. But are there things that if you were
handing this to somebody who was curious about faith,
even for the first time, what do you wanna make sure that gets
touched upon? Like and not just like these big theological questions,
but, I was a church planter. I started a church in San Francisco a
1000000 years ago and people didn't really care about the big theological things.
Like, why are there so many different kinds of churches? Like, that was a core
question. Why do we baptize people in so many different ways? Like, why
and so I try to do that and get it all the way to the
ground level as well as infusing in
when we talk about God's plan, that can be really dangerous, but
here's a way to think about it that is more in line with the rest
of our theological space. So, yeah. So I I I did it individually. I crowd
sourced a little bit, which is always individually. I crowd sourced a little bit,
which has always been my vibe is, here is something
I'm offering. Help me figure out and make this better.
And then here's where we go together. And I'm I generally am pretty
good about separating people's opinion and
likes and dislikes versus content that could help be better. So,
yeah. So that's what I did. I just shared it out,
And people are always interested in talking about a theology
that would, help them in their work, for
sure. I mean, it's really interesting though. I had colleagues read this book
ahead of time, as we were going through some review times and, and
one person said to me, oh, I could've wrote that book. And
I was like, but you didn't. So
but it's it's a because it's a conglomeration of a lot of
people's thinking. So a lot of people won't find a lot
much surprising, but I think it will be an accessible,
clearer version of what many of us have believed for a long
time. Yeah. Well, maybe your colleague was expressing maybe
not sort of the surety that he or she could have
written the book, but that almost that they wished they had written the book. I
mean Oh, yeah. Totally. No. It's a it was a good friend. It was Yeah.
Yeah. Good friend of mine. A good friend of mine is, like, oh, I can
write that. I'm like, yeah. But you didn't. So just read it and let me
know what you think. Something that resonates with us. It
oftentimes I I find is something that, gives words to something
that I feel but hadn't been able to express before. And Yeah.
And it sounds like you're really trying to invest in doing that for a lot
of people. Like, when they give you this mandate to, okay, you write a manifesto
for progressive Christianity, like, it's kinda kinda
yeah. Kinda boiling down to that, though. Isn't it? Like, giving I mean,
it it really it it really is. And I'm very I'm very
cautious as folks read this, that the definitive article I use all the time
is a, not the. And so that it is a version.
It is, you know, it's it's a version of the gospel as
opposed to the version. Like it what I hope it does is it's it is
it gives a good baseline from which people can spring off into
their own thinking about things. And I do a whole section on we are all
theologians at the beginning to kind of give permission
and challenge all of us to have these conversations about God. And
if that's something folks are curious about, then here's a way to
begin to prime the pump around that. Not just like, well, what do you think
about God? Well, it's not really helpful if you've never really had to
think about that before or the only version you have is something that
you are rejecting right now. Like, well, here's
another way to think about it. And and what I've heard is that
it's pretty accessible, and it does give some language to some things that
people have been thinking. So, yeah. That's that's exactly what I'm trying
to do. Yeah. One of the
aspects that you wrote about that resonated with me is the idea
that we we struggle to articulate what it is that we do believe.
We don't have that same struggle often articulating what we don't believe. So
Yeah. And and I can think about it this way. A term
like salvation, like, I can I can tell you what I don't believe
about salvation? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What I kinda rail against when we use that
word, but it it becomes a little bit tougher to express
the the proactive or, positively aligned
aspects of what I do. So how how did this
process of writing this book help you to articulate
some of the things that you do believe? Well, I will say
that it helped me
really refine what I believe. I mean, it it's one of those things that again
that that when you said before, it's giving words to people. I think folks
are like, ah, yes. That's yes. This is what I'm thinking.
Because we fall back onto, like, just trite
phrases and language in our liturgy, in our in our
in our hymns. And we just buy into these things. Like a
great way that I think about salvation, right, is we always think about
it as the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And I was like, actually,
I think it's the life, death and resurrection. Like it is
we we are connected to God through the living
Jesus, but all of our theological language is always death and resurrection
as opposed to, well, let's broaden that out and expand that out. I'm not
getting rid of the death or the resurrection. What I'm talking about is
it's fuller than that, And that makes more sense to
people around like, oh, I'm experiencing this
connection to God through the fullness of who Jesus
is. And so forcing me to articulate and that what really
forced me to do is when you have to do all this in 40,000
words, you really have to choose
words well. Like I my editor was amazing
and gentle when she needed to be and also just challenging when it was
important around. Okay. So what do you really like? We're
we're stripping this down. Give me the 4 sentences. What does
baptism mean? I'm like, Oh my God, 4 sentences. Right? But
we have to do that. And I think that the challenge for some of us
who I think, land in this space is
we over explain everything. And we
use a lot of words when we don't need to,
and we almost use our, our,
our words as a crutch sometimes. And we, then we spin
ourselves into confusing for people.
When I think, you know, if we're talking to people who are new or
reintroducing themselves to this version, we have to be pretty
clear. And so I think everybody needs to work on that. And that's what that's
one of the hopes is that you like so then what do you think about
salvation? You have to practice that. Like that's it's it's not as if I was
like, oh, yeah. Salvation in 4 4 sentences. It was more like, okay. Here's
my the first version was like 70,000 words or something. I don't know what it
was. We had to trim it all the way back. Wow. Because I wanted everybody
to know every nuance about the 7 versions of
atonement that are out there. And she's like, we can't do that. You
gotta no. Name these other things.
Which are the problematic ones? Why? And then where do you land?
Right? And we should all try to go
through those process together and figure out what what do we really believe so that
can articulate to people who are who are curious about it. Well, how
might your book help individuals then articulate Mhmm. What it is
that they believe? Is it the process of building the montage? Or
is, you know, pastors in some ways, because most of my colleague, I could have
done this. That's not really for them. I always tell them like, well, that's this
isn't really for you. I may write a book for ministers later, but this
one is for the peep what I hope it's like, you're like, oh, yeah. This
is something that I can give to people
to to spark conversation. There's
about 6 churches that used it for their summer series. Right? They broke it down
and used it. It's an easy thing if you need programming. Like, just
hand them this and you block it out. For others who are reading it, say
you're, just a person in the pew as they say.
What I've heard is that it gives a little
more texture to things that they've been
saying out loud and singing about for a long time, but
didn't really know what it meant. Mhmm. And it's
they've been in the church too long to ask. Right? That
awkward moment where you're like, I you know, I've been hanging
out with you for a few months, but I still don't know your name, and
now it's too late for me to ask what your name is. There has been
a lot of that. That's kind of unexpected. I actually like that there's been
they're like, oh, okay. So that's that's what I've been thinking this might
mean, but we don't really,
you know, we talk about God's plan all the time. And, you know,
and then we sing about it and all these things. Anyway, so that Yeah. And
then the last group are folks that are just curious about faith. So those are
on that post deconstruction space. Those who have been
dabbling have a cultural,
maybe obligatory connection to church, but still something draws it to
draws them to church and spirituality. And this has been
a way for folks to get a little more meat on what they've been
experiencing. So that those are kind of how people are
doing. And the questions at the back, you know, are both group and individuals.
So there's a group pick a question each time.
I know some of the prayers are being used in places just so that folks
can it's, what I try to do is weave all the elements of what living
faith may be. So individual, group, prayer,
and and I hope the stories are inviting. They they will hopefully age
well, and give, like, kind of this fullness of how we
all experience faith throughout our life. You mentioned us
having a a need to simplify what it is that,
that we think about and even how we express it. But you
also note that, it's possible that God created
human beings to be really complex. So Mhmm. How does
recognizing our complexity and that god created us in this
kind of complex range of of human experience,
how does that change the way that we might approach faith?
I I mean, I think there's lots of ways, but my my primary
thing these days has been, we
either believe that everybody is a com, you know, is
a complex created, you know, child of God
or we don't. And then does that
matter how we treat everyone? So even
our deepest enemies, right? We're told clearly in scripture, there's lots of things that
are easier to follow, right? Feed those who are hungry, clothe those who are
naked. We might even visit people who incarcerated, give
drink, you know, all those things that those are great and easy, but,
bless your enemy and do not curse them. We are
not good at that. And that goes both ways. And I think that by
truly believing that even our worst
enemy is created and
complex, we have to allow that to change how we behave. Now
that doesn't mean we agree or we affirm
actions or beliefs or any of that. It just means that how we
respond to that person can't diminish their humanity.
And I think that's that's what the world wants. You know,
war and violence feeds on dehumanization. Mhmm. And
if we can make small and large steps
in how we interact with with each other online or what we say about those
we disagree with in in conversation, then,
we are we are saying to evil basically not today. Like you're not
gonna win today. And I think that that's really hard in these
political times, but really necessary. I mean,
I I just think that the more we dehumanize other
people, the more we are not gonna find
any common space. And we can't do
it as a transactional thing. Right? We
can't, Well, they don't do it to us. Well, they don't do they don't humanize
us. So why would I humanize them? Like, well, I don't humanize another
person just so it gets me something. I do that because God has said to
me, I see you as this complex person. In response
to that, you should see all of, you know, my
creation as such. And that is hard
and excruciating. And it's it's sometimes more fun
to just give it right back. Yeah. But I think it only lasts for a
moment, and then we realize we're not that's not a
helpful people to be. So are are
there practices that you use to kinda check yourself, or
to keep you grounded in looking at people? I'm super annoying. I'm super annoying
to others and myself. So like if
somebody says they're just they're a pile
of whatever. I'm like, are they actually a
pile of that, or are they just doing things that are that? Mhmm. I
mean, Yeah. How do we separate right? Yes. I see that as
being annoying. Right? Yeah. There you go. My wife is
particularly excited. Like, oh, they're they're trash. I'm like, well,
are they? Like, is anybody trash? I mean, that's what I
say about black and brown bodies in the US. Right? We have decided
that they can be disposed of and made indivisible in
our incarcerals our carceral system. I don't think
that's true. We wouldn't want anybody to think that. And I'm not so I'm not
gonna reciprocate that to other people. Now, do
they need to be do people need to be held accountable for the action? Yes.
But at their very core being, they are not trash. Right? And
so I really watch myself
and watch my language, watch what I
pass on online, watch what I'm gonna forward or what I'm gonna
share because I don't wanna add to
this idea that we can just diminish somebody else's humanity without even thinking about
it. And I think that that is too easy. So I'm I am very
disciplined about thinking about everything that I share
or say, the whether it
it it it diminishes our humanity. And I still wanna challenge, like, I'm not a
big fan of former president Trump. I'm not a huge fan of current
president Biden either, but I'm not going to fall into ableism and ageism
and all those things. Right? I'm gonna challenge thoughts, beliefs,
but not ability, age, you know, those kinds of things.
And and that's hard to do because it's so easy. It's just sitting right there.
And I but I think that's that's an easy lazy way out. And I think
we're called to something better. Yeah. Well, and it's easy to do,
especially when the snowball of of public opinion is kinda cascading down
that way. Right? Oh, yeah. Yep. Yep. As we're recording this, it kinda is. But
Yep. Exactly. What, you mentioned that
that you learned something in in reading your own writing. How
was the the process of putting this thing together? A learning expedition
for you, or how are you transformed by it?
Oh. I am fully
committed to my faith. Like I I just,
and people will say but, you know, isn't well then is it the only way?
And I'm like, no. I clearly I say in the book, Jesus is not the
only way to experience God and the divine. And I'm
very clear with that. And like what about when it says And I'm like, okay,
we're not getting into scripture wars because, those are exhausting to
me and useless. But I'm like, I can live with attention. And I actually
think that sometimes scripture is wrong. So there you go.
And so, you know, when when somebody says to me, well, Jesus says, only way
through God is through me. I'm like, I can fully say that for myself. That
is my only way to God. Is that for everybody? No. There's just too much
in the world that says to me that's not the only way. The people have
connected to God in whatever form God is taking in many, many
ways. And so, you know, there there's all the mental gymnastics
that others have done to talk about people who've never
had an opportunity to experience Jesus and the the need to
to evangelize and be missionaries and all that kind of stuff. I just
don't fall into that. So but I have I like, I'm like, yeah.
I am committed to this adventure with
Jesus. And I would say that one of the things that I think surprises
people in there is I'm still committed to the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ because
it is so outrageous. And I I just think
looking at the world, we play our part and we we
respond to the invitations that God gives us to be part of healing and hope
in the world, but there's got to be something more that's gonna
make this place better or is making it better in places I don't know.
Because if humans could do it, I think we would, and we just don't have
the capacity, the will, whatever it is to do it. And so I think
there has to be something as unimaginable and outrageous
as a body coming back to life. And I'm,
you know, I don't try to explain it away. I don't try to I'm not
one of those that it does like, he will say it didn't have to happen
for it to be true. I just like, I actually think it's true
because it happened. And so here we go. And what do we do with that?
And again, people come at that in different ways, but that's where I land in
in the book. And ever so,
kind of been reinforced in that as as I wrote this. And my
editor, Valerie, just helped me to really think through what are you trying to say,
a lot and and strip away my
I think many of our tendencies to to fill in spaces that don't
need to be there and be clearer about what we
believe. And I think that was really helpful for me. Well, I
appreciate you bringing up the resurrection because it moves us from,
something that we think about or ideologize into something
that's in flesh. Right? Yep. For us as as Christians,
like, the the ultimate idea is, like, here is faith in flesh, and
and it's you know, god's love is expressed in this physical resurrection.
So how do you see the church in
this day and age kind of in a gospel that is
related to love and kindness and justice?
Oh, that's a wheelhouse question for you as a Methodist, me as a Presbyterian. Right?
I mean, you know, we we were
talking a little bit before that, you know, the Presbyterian Church USA of of
my my denomination, we are a very different church than we
were 10 years ago, 15 years ago. I mean, when I was I held an
office in our denomination, that's kind of you
do you have a general secretary? I can't remember what's the hierarchy of something.
Whenever you're We have bishops. Yep. Bishops. Okay. So you're bishops. Right? So The council
of bishops. So I held I held the same I held the highest office in
our denomination, And we were not at that point ordaining LGBTQI
people. Our marriage was still between 1 man and 1 woman.
There were a variety of things. And at our last general assembly,
we just passed a whole thing that is going to
be approved that includes, sexual orientation,
transgender in our constitution. That, I mean,
this is talk about, you know, resurrection
people. Like, we we were in a place where we were,
you know, we were we were death dealing in many ways by what we were
saying theologically, and we are now saying, no. These are
things that give us life and depth and texture to who we believe God's people
are. We still have a long way to go in living those out day to
day. But as a church, like,
every time something pops up from the PCUSA on Instagram or something and
it's like, day of trans visibility. And I'm like, this is how
did it my church is How did we get here? Yeah. What what happened? I'm
like I'm just like before there was hemming and hawing
whether you put something, you know, about anything. And they have to
go practically through legal before you could put something. And now there's this
stuff coming on. I'm like, oh my goodness. This is amazing.
Now we just have to figure out how do we
share that. We're terrible at sharing what we believe. I I don't know
if the methods are any better, but but it's strange. We're terrible at it. We
have rested on our laurels. You know, you'll find us if you want
us. And I'm like, oh my goodness. We have this great kind of
message right now. And it and it's not just about growth,
but it's about impact in people's lives Mhmm.
Creating belonging. I mean, we're just doing some amazing stuff. And so I
I feel like we as a denomination and others are all moving. Now there are
some that are moving in another direction and doubling down on some of
that exclusion, but we're not. And I'm like, I am overjoyed
with where we're headed as a church and where where you all are headed and
and others have been heading. It's it's a beautiful,
welcoming, expansive, you
know, expression of of Jesus in the world. And I I just feel
like there's so many people that that faith has been dead. We
have tried to say no. It's it's living and
again, not perfect, but there is some good life coming out of some
of these places now. But you've just come off of several weeks on the road.
The book has just come out. So you may answer this question just being like,
I'm just gonna rest. But what are you dreaming about doing next?
Yeah. Well, actually, it's a really good question, for me because I
have been in this I mean, for Gen Xer to say, I've been in
this anxious time. I mean, what what Gen Xer is not ever always.
But, I I've been in full time ministry for a long time. I've I've
been ordained in the PCUSA for almost 30 years
now. And I've always had my foot in the congregation or in an
organization and I've done the writing and speaking kind of on the side.
And I think sometimes that's there's great
joy in that been for a long time, but I think sometimes when you're splitting
yourself so much, you don't really get to dive into things. It's almost an excuse
not to work on 1 to really kind of figure out. So
I've actually recently decided that I'm gonna be full time writing
and I'm no longer gonna be a pastor, which I I gave up the identity
as a pastor defining me a long time ago, but it is still a little
weird that for at least the next probably 5 years, I'm not
dancing with a congregation or an organist judicatory or anything
in that role as pastor. And I'm gonna be a writer and speaker full
time, which I still have to get used to doing that without rolling on my
own eyes. Because it does feel like when people used to sound like,
oh, must be nice. You're just writing and Yeah. But,
you know, I've had I have a I have a great person who's helping me
kinda get over myself and, really dive into
that and work on the craft. Think about what is missing
kind of in the in the world right now in this context, what can I
offer? And so I'm gonna be writing and speaking and, and
all that for the foreseeable future. I don't I am still
super brand new. Like I haven't even figured out
what that looks like. I have I have a very rough 5 year plan
about things I like to do and then I gotta fill in the okay. Those
are big ideas. What's the first step?
Gotcha. So that's what I'm doing. I'm I'm very excited about it though.
I'm I'm very excited about it. Cool. Well, we appreciate you
joining us today and, well, sharing so much about your experience and
also what you're looking forward to. So, when you do get out that
next book, let's talk again. Yeah. Anytime. Anytime.
Fun times for sure. Do you want the fun to continue?
Well, then check out another episode of the country's
podcast. I think episode number 133 with John Pavlovitz
would be a really good companion piece to this episode.
Also episode 126 with Heather Gilad, that's called church
rethought would match well with this episode too. It has a smooth
finish that pairs well with the okey overtones of this course.
I'll stop. Hey, while you're listening or right now,
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is brought to you by United Methodist Communications. And
that's all for this episode. We're gonna be back with a new episode in 2
weeks. So I look forward to chatting at you then. In the meantime,
peace.