WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.719 --> 00:00:04.019 Let's set the scene. You're on your way to a unity 2 00:00:04.160 --> 00:00:08.000 rally. This is gonna be an event celebrating the diversity of 3 00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:11.360 our human existence. You're gonna hear positive 4 00:00:11.360 --> 00:00:15.205 messages talking about how we are each different and come from different 5 00:00:15.205 --> 00:00:18.965 backgrounds, and yet this diversity makes us more beautiful in 6 00:00:18.965 --> 00:00:22.805 the whole and strengthens all of us. Your presence at the 7 00:00:22.805 --> 00:00:25.785 rally should be an important witness towards unity. 8 00:00:28.810 --> 00:00:32.650 It's surprising then that the entrance to the rally is flanked 9 00:00:32.650 --> 00:00:36.190 by swastikas and scores of angry white men. 10 00:00:37.050 --> 00:00:40.650 What do you do in the moment? Do you run through? Turn 11 00:00:40.650 --> 00:00:43.390 around? Or do you confront them? 12 00:00:44.265 --> 00:00:48.025 This is Compass Finding Spirituality in the Everyday. And in 13 00:00:48.025 --> 00:00:51.645 this episode, we're talking with Reverend Neelley Hicks, who chose 14 00:00:51.864 --> 00:00:55.565 to confront the Nazis heckling Nashville, Tennessee's 15 00:00:55.705 --> 00:00:59.510 unity rally in 2024. Neelley ended up on the front 16 00:00:59.510 --> 00:01:02.970 page of the local paper in a photo. They're talking with men 17 00:01:03.030 --> 00:01:06.250 wearing nazi paraphernalia and carrying swastika 18 00:01:06.470 --> 00:01:10.204 flags. The picture was actually picked up by several global news 19 00:01:10.204 --> 00:01:13.965 organizations. Now Neelley and I volunteer at the 20 00:01:13.965 --> 00:01:17.405 same church. It's a church known for taking stands on issues of 21 00:01:17.405 --> 00:01:21.164 equality and justice. So we could assume that though Neelley 22 00:01:21.164 --> 00:01:24.924 looks calm in the picture, she was there to confront hate. And 23 00:01:24.924 --> 00:01:27.109 that was the truth truth of it. But remaining calm and exuding a warmth of 24 00:01:27.109 --> 00:01:29.220 compassion is part of who Neelley is and is part of what makes this such 25 00:01:29.220 --> 00:01:32.900 a remarkable story. So let's get the full story. I'm 26 00:01:32.900 --> 00:01:33.720 Ryan Dunn, 27 00:01:39.015 --> 00:01:42.555 and we're talking about addressing trauma and fostering love 28 00:01:42.695 --> 00:01:44.235 over hate on compass. 29 00:01:46.455 --> 00:01:49.975 Well, Neelley, of all the things that we could be having a 30 00:01:49.975 --> 00:01:53.735 podcast conversation about, I'm a little surprised that it's Nazis, but, 31 00:01:55.120 --> 00:01:58.100 here we are in this day and age and, 32 00:01:58.799 --> 00:02:02.640 having to, rehash what begin many of us would hope 33 00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:06.240 would be a dead topic. But, as the, you know, the 34 00:02:06.240 --> 00:02:09.764 newspaper taught us a few weeks ago, it is not a dev 35 00:02:09.764 --> 00:02:11.705 topic. You were in the paper. 36 00:02:13.445 --> 00:02:17.205 Congratulations. Thanks. It's not something that I I seek after to have 37 00:02:17.205 --> 00:02:20.910 my Right. My photograph on the front page 38 00:02:20.910 --> 00:02:24.750 of a paper, but, you know, there it was. Yeah. 39 00:02:24.750 --> 00:02:28.510 And especially in the context that that it was. I I understand that 40 00:02:28.510 --> 00:02:32.030 you've had to do some rereporting or sharing 41 00:02:32.030 --> 00:02:35.825 about the context around the the paper that appear 42 00:02:36.064 --> 00:02:39.825 or around the photo that appeared in the Tennesseean? Can you explain 43 00:02:39.825 --> 00:02:43.665 what you were doing? Yeah. Yeah. So, a 44 00:02:43.665 --> 00:02:47.284 couple of weeks ago, there was a unity rally in Nashville, 45 00:02:47.745 --> 00:02:51.510 and it was focused on bringing support around, 46 00:02:52.530 --> 00:02:56.290 basically unity so that people could get out 47 00:02:56.290 --> 00:02:59.650 and show that love is stronger than hate here in 48 00:02:59.650 --> 00:03:03.435 Nashville. And the reason why that happened was 49 00:03:03.435 --> 00:03:07.114 because Neo Nazis showed up, and they had been 50 00:03:07.114 --> 00:03:10.955 around for, I guess, a couple of weeks. And it wasn't their first time here 51 00:03:10.955 --> 00:03:14.730 either. But people decided we're gonna come 52 00:03:14.730 --> 00:03:18.430 out together and show unity and love. And 53 00:03:18.890 --> 00:03:22.650 I was invited by a friend of mine to go, and I knew that 54 00:03:22.650 --> 00:03:25.950 she had individually received hate mail, 55 00:03:26.834 --> 00:03:29.175 anti Semitic hate mail in her driveway. 56 00:03:30.674 --> 00:03:34.114 And, you know, that's what they've been doing for the last few years, 57 00:03:34.114 --> 00:03:37.474 actually, throwing anti Semitic flyers and 58 00:03:37.474 --> 00:03:41.230 pamphlets out in the night, you know, 59 00:03:41.230 --> 00:03:44.829 where it's safe for them, to drive down the street and throw 60 00:03:44.829 --> 00:03:47.810 these bags out with anti Semitic literature 61 00:03:48.590 --> 00:03:52.355 into driveways. And so I knew she had 62 00:03:52.355 --> 00:03:56.035 received that. She is Jewish, and I wanted to 63 00:03:56.035 --> 00:03:59.815 show up for her. And so I was waiting for her, 64 00:04:00.195 --> 00:04:03.815 and it was while I was waiting that the 65 00:04:03.980 --> 00:04:07.819 the Neo Nazis showed up. What they say is that they do not wanna be 66 00:04:07.819 --> 00:04:11.599 called Neo Nazis. They wanna be called Nazis. 67 00:04:11.900 --> 00:04:15.680 They are actual Nazis. That's what their branding 68 00:04:15.980 --> 00:04:19.575 is. But, when I saw them walk up, 69 00:04:19.575 --> 00:04:23.255 I Ryan, honestly, it was not something I had 70 00:04:23.255 --> 00:04:26.615 planned. I my feet took me to 71 00:04:26.615 --> 00:04:29.915 them. And I walked up, 72 00:04:30.055 --> 00:04:33.600 and the first person whose eyes met 73 00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:37.440 mine, I asked the question, how does it feel to 74 00:04:37.440 --> 00:04:40.180 have so much anger in your heart? And 75 00:04:40.960 --> 00:04:44.800 that started a conversation, and it 76 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:48.195 was an insightful conversation. So you didn't really have a 77 00:04:48.195 --> 00:04:51.255 plan of what you were doing when you approached? 78 00:04:51.955 --> 00:04:55.655 No. I did not. I mean, you know, 79 00:04:55.795 --> 00:04:59.460 I always kinda create these mind scripts of 80 00:04:59.460 --> 00:05:03.060 if I come face to face with so and so, I'm gonna say this, and 81 00:05:03.060 --> 00:05:06.340 I'm gonna say that. And I had run through with with some of that in 82 00:05:06.340 --> 00:05:10.180 my mind. But I think probably at the heart of the question that I asked 83 00:05:10.180 --> 00:05:13.640 was this concept, which is a trauma informed 84 00:05:13.700 --> 00:05:17.185 concept around not saying, what's wrong with 85 00:05:17.185 --> 00:05:19.845 you, but saying, what happened to you? 86 00:05:21.025 --> 00:05:24.405 And that when we ask that question, we understand, 87 00:05:25.105 --> 00:05:28.860 like, okay. How did this happen? And 88 00:05:28.860 --> 00:05:32.700 so that was probably really influencing the way that I 89 00:05:32.700 --> 00:05:36.540 handled that conversation. So with that question then, what response did 90 00:05:36.540 --> 00:05:39.840 you get? Yeah. It was it was interesting 91 00:05:39.980 --> 00:05:43.544 because the person I was talking with, the guy with 92 00:05:43.544 --> 00:05:47.384 the mohawk and swastika on his 93 00:05:47.384 --> 00:05:51.145 t shirt said, I'm not like this always or I'm not like 94 00:05:51.145 --> 00:05:54.985 this all of the time. So, you know, that 95 00:05:54.985 --> 00:05:58.090 was a greater answer than I expected. 96 00:05:59.030 --> 00:06:02.169 And so I started asking him more about, 97 00:06:03.349 --> 00:06:06.330 well okay. So when did this start for you? 98 00:06:07.030 --> 00:06:10.715 And he said about 5 years ago. And then 99 00:06:10.854 --> 00:06:13.995 he corrected himself and said it was during the pandemic. 100 00:06:15.094 --> 00:06:18.615 And then it led to him talking about how his 101 00:06:18.615 --> 00:06:22.455 neighborhood had changed. He lives in Colorado. He 102 00:06:22.455 --> 00:06:26.280 told me that. And Mexicans, which I don't know if 103 00:06:26.280 --> 00:06:29.660 they're Mexican or not, but, essentially, Hispanic 104 00:06:29.880 --> 00:06:33.480 immigrants had moved into his neighborhood. And he 105 00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:37.180 said, and why do you think they come here? And 106 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:40.675 I said, well, I know my ancestors came from 107 00:06:40.675 --> 00:06:44.435 Ireland because they wanted a better life. And he 108 00:06:44.435 --> 00:06:48.195 said, yeah. Well, why don't they why can't they stay in their 109 00:06:48.195 --> 00:06:51.950 own country and make things better there? And so 110 00:06:51.950 --> 00:06:55.550 we continued talking about that. I 111 00:06:55.550 --> 00:06:58.850 also asked him if he was Christian, if he considered 112 00:06:58.910 --> 00:07:02.450 himself Christian because the rise of Christian 113 00:07:02.590 --> 00:07:04.770 nationalism is so 114 00:07:05.995 --> 00:07:09.595 abhorrent to the Christian faith. Like, Christian 115 00:07:09.595 --> 00:07:12.974 nationalism is the same as Islamic terrorism. 116 00:07:13.194 --> 00:07:15.935 It's like they're both, can I say, bastardizing 117 00:07:16.955 --> 00:07:20.790 the religion from which they represent? It's like, it's 118 00:07:20.790 --> 00:07:24.470 not really the religion either time. But I 119 00:07:24.470 --> 00:07:28.070 wanted to ask that question. Are you 120 00:07:28.070 --> 00:07:31.750 Christian or consider yourself to be? And he he wavered in 121 00:07:31.750 --> 00:07:35.165 his response. And I said, well, you know, 122 00:07:35.165 --> 00:07:38.625 Jesus is Jewish. Right? Or Jesus 123 00:07:38.685 --> 00:07:42.525 was Jewish. And, oh my gosh, 124 00:07:42.525 --> 00:07:46.365 Ryan. It was crazy because I didn't even know that the 125 00:07:46.365 --> 00:07:50.040 other guys were totally listening to this conversation. But 126 00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:53.820 all of just all of them just, you know, 127 00:07:53.880 --> 00:07:57.720 jumped on me to say, no. He wasn't, and neither 128 00:07:57.720 --> 00:08:01.020 was Abraham or Isaac or any of them. 129 00:08:01.975 --> 00:08:05.595 So I asked them, where do you get your biblical 130 00:08:05.655 --> 00:08:08.715 history or knowledge from? And, 131 00:08:09.495 --> 00:08:13.175 one of the guys in the back said there was a bible that came 132 00:08:13.175 --> 00:08:16.775 out during the civil war or around that 133 00:08:16.775 --> 00:08:20.310 time. So I looked that up, and it's true 134 00:08:20.370 --> 00:08:23.970 that slaveholders redacted the 135 00:08:23.970 --> 00:08:27.750 bible for their purpose to keep slaves 136 00:08:28.050 --> 00:08:31.805 in check and in line. And so while 137 00:08:31.805 --> 00:08:35.565 I've not read that bible, I am looking more into 138 00:08:35.565 --> 00:08:39.245 it because I think that, you know, we just 139 00:08:39.245 --> 00:08:42.945 never know when one thing is done for one purpose. 140 00:08:43.085 --> 00:08:46.930 Like, at that point, those slaveholders wanted to 141 00:08:47.310 --> 00:08:50.770 have justification for oppressing people. 142 00:08:50.990 --> 00:08:54.750 And then here we are 2024, people are 143 00:08:54.750 --> 00:08:58.235 still referencing that version of the 144 00:08:58.235 --> 00:09:01.915 bible to justify their oppression of other 145 00:09:01.915 --> 00:09:05.615 people. So I learned a lot, Ryan. 146 00:09:05.675 --> 00:09:09.194 Over the course of your conversation, did you ever get 147 00:09:09.194 --> 00:09:12.900 an impression as to why they were targeting this 148 00:09:12.900 --> 00:09:16.360 area? Like, we we've had these conversations in Nashville 149 00:09:16.420 --> 00:09:20.180 before. I'm not sure if this stuff is happening across the 150 00:09:20.180 --> 00:09:23.960 country as much as it's happening here. Maybe I'm just heightened 151 00:09:24.260 --> 00:09:27.964 aware height I have a heightened awareness because we are here 152 00:09:27.964 --> 00:09:31.324 in Nashville, but the guy you talked to is from 153 00:09:31.324 --> 00:09:35.165 Colorado. Why was he here? Yeah. You know, one question 154 00:09:35.165 --> 00:09:38.685 that I would have liked to have asked is who funded your 155 00:09:38.685 --> 00:09:41.600 trip? Because 156 00:09:42.300 --> 00:09:44.800 so many times, people who are, 157 00:09:46.140 --> 00:09:49.519 you know, out there with perhaps without enough income 158 00:09:50.220 --> 00:09:53.740 or, you know, maybe they don't have a job, maybe they're kind of a 159 00:09:53.740 --> 00:09:57.505 misfit in community, Those are the people who are 160 00:09:57.505 --> 00:10:01.105 vulnerable and might be sought after to go and 161 00:10:01.105 --> 00:10:04.865 do something like this. So I did not get to 162 00:10:04.865 --> 00:10:08.305 ask that question. So I don't have a, 163 00:10:09.105 --> 00:10:12.910 a definite answer on why they came here. But 164 00:10:12.910 --> 00:10:16.590 one thing that I think of are the 165 00:10:16.590 --> 00:10:20.210 things that Nashville has become more known for. 166 00:10:20.990 --> 00:10:23.925 And it's not the tourism. 167 00:10:24.545 --> 00:10:28.225 It's not the, you know, the fun 168 00:10:28.225 --> 00:10:31.825 times and the beautiful sights here, but we 169 00:10:31.825 --> 00:10:34.644 think about some of the people who are 170 00:10:35.185 --> 00:10:38.389 so rampantly racist 171 00:10:39.569 --> 00:10:43.029 and just just oppressive people. 172 00:10:44.050 --> 00:10:46.870 And their voices have become 173 00:10:47.569 --> 00:10:51.089 amplified, unfortunately, in ways that I 174 00:10:51.089 --> 00:10:54.665 think gives permission to others to come here. 175 00:10:54.885 --> 00:10:58.665 There has also been a gas station, out 176 00:10:58.725 --> 00:11:02.485 on Ashland City Highway that was cited by the Southern 177 00:11:02.485 --> 00:11:05.910 Poverty Law Center as offering hand to hand 178 00:11:05.910 --> 00:11:09.750 combat, in their secret 179 00:11:09.750 --> 00:11:13.450 room upstairs, preparing for 180 00:11:14.630 --> 00:11:18.250 maybe a race war or some kind of war in this nation. 181 00:11:19.145 --> 00:11:22.765 So these things create an atmosphere where 182 00:11:23.625 --> 00:11:27.465 people do feel invited here and, you 183 00:11:27.465 --> 00:11:31.165 know, as if they are going to find more similar 184 00:11:31.810 --> 00:11:35.569 mindsets here. I think, you know, I'm really proud 185 00:11:35.569 --> 00:11:39.329 that we that the unity rally happened because there 186 00:11:39.329 --> 00:11:42.930 were more people there than them who stood 187 00:11:42.930 --> 00:11:46.355 outside the gate. And, actually, in one of the 188 00:11:46.355 --> 00:11:50.195 photographs, the the lead guy was just 189 00:11:50.195 --> 00:11:53.815 kind of a carnival barker. You know, he was just out 190 00:11:54.035 --> 00:11:57.555 there. Nazi organizer. Okay. Yeah. 191 00:11:57.555 --> 00:11:59.895 Yeah. The lead Nazi. 192 00:12:01.450 --> 00:12:04.910 And he was in the news quite a bit. But, 193 00:12:06.570 --> 00:12:10.250 what I saw in him was somebody who he's living in 194 00:12:10.250 --> 00:12:14.005 the ego level of being. All that 195 00:12:14.005 --> 00:12:17.065 matters to him is the attention that he gets, 196 00:12:17.685 --> 00:12:21.065 and he's getting it. But in one photograph, 197 00:12:21.685 --> 00:12:25.045 he was actually climbing the fence or 198 00:12:25.045 --> 00:12:28.850 standing with his face pushed into the fence, and he looked like an 199 00:12:28.850 --> 00:12:32.310 animal. And it's it's really 200 00:12:32.530 --> 00:12:36.230 tragic that somebody 201 00:12:36.450 --> 00:12:40.075 would let their life be diminished 202 00:12:40.855 --> 00:12:44.535 in that way because none of us start out hating 203 00:12:44.535 --> 00:12:48.295 like this. And it's 204 00:12:48.295 --> 00:12:51.735 just I think that's a really pathetic way to 205 00:12:51.735 --> 00:12:55.470 live. So you had mentioned that the the person 206 00:12:55.470 --> 00:12:59.230 you were speaking with said that he is not like that all 207 00:12:59.230 --> 00:13:02.930 the time. And did he give an indication 208 00:13:03.149 --> 00:13:06.990 on, you know, what has changed for him? So we don't 209 00:13:06.990 --> 00:13:10.644 start out hating like this. We heard a little bit about his 210 00:13:10.644 --> 00:13:14.485 his neighborhood having changed, but did 211 00:13:14.485 --> 00:13:17.925 he say that there was something more to that? Was there a reason why he 212 00:13:17.925 --> 00:13:20.985 was so resentful that there were different looking people in his neighborhood? 213 00:13:22.040 --> 00:13:25.800 He did not, and I really regret that I did not 214 00:13:25.800 --> 00:13:29.640 get his full name and contact information because I 215 00:13:29.640 --> 00:13:33.320 would love to do a follow-up interview with him. And I've actually searched 216 00:13:33.320 --> 00:13:36.060 for him online, and I can't find anything. 217 00:13:37.985 --> 00:13:41.525 But because those are the questions that need to be asked. 218 00:13:42.625 --> 00:13:46.385 And we know that this it to 219 00:13:46.385 --> 00:13:50.200 me, it's like this gang mentality. You know, 220 00:13:50.220 --> 00:13:53.780 gangs thrive because people who don't 221 00:13:53.780 --> 00:13:57.480 have what they need to live happy, healthy 222 00:13:57.940 --> 00:14:01.700 lives, they get taken in. They become vulnerable, and they get 223 00:14:01.700 --> 00:14:05.255 taken in by somebody else. And we see this in 224 00:14:05.255 --> 00:14:09.015 places where I work in Africa that simply by 225 00:14:09.015 --> 00:14:12.154 giving young boys bread 226 00:14:13.015 --> 00:14:16.635 that, you know, some kind of, leader, 227 00:14:16.695 --> 00:14:20.200 ringleader will then take them in, care for 228 00:14:20.200 --> 00:14:23.500 them, and then have them do horrendous 229 00:14:23.800 --> 00:14:26.860 things on their behalf. So the same mentality 230 00:14:27.400 --> 00:14:31.180 that's there in Africa, it's it's within all humanity. 231 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:35.144 Right? People look for those who are vulnerable. And 232 00:14:35.144 --> 00:14:38.904 then when people find a group where they feel 233 00:14:38.904 --> 00:14:42.285 like they do fit in, they find that sense of belonging, 234 00:14:43.144 --> 00:14:46.505 then they go with the group. It's the 235 00:14:46.505 --> 00:14:50.190 peer pressure at maybe at first, and then it 236 00:14:50.190 --> 00:14:53.870 becomes just a way of life. What's kinda striking to me in looking 237 00:14:53.870 --> 00:14:57.170 through the photos that 238 00:14:58.029 --> 00:15:01.725 the man who you had a conversation with did not 239 00:15:01.725 --> 00:15:05.565 have his face covered. He's very recognizable just as he described. If 240 00:15:05.565 --> 00:15:08.445 you look at these photos, you're gonna see who who it is that you're talking 241 00:15:08.445 --> 00:15:12.205 about. Mhmm. Everybody else though, just about everybody 242 00:15:12.205 --> 00:15:15.265 else seems to have some sort of of face covering, 243 00:15:16.880 --> 00:15:20.320 which is strange to me that you would show up in this public place to 244 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:23.060 make this public declaration and yet hide 245 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:27.840 a a bit of yourself like that. Did you get an impression at 246 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:31.445 all that there was a bit of, like to me, it suggests that 247 00:15:31.584 --> 00:15:35.425 maybe they feel a little bit ashamed about what they're doing. Did did that 248 00:15:35.425 --> 00:15:38.725 come across in your conversation at all? It did not. 249 00:15:38.945 --> 00:15:42.625 But, I mean, there was one man who was an older man. I 250 00:15:42.625 --> 00:15:46.470 mean, maybe, like, my age. And he 251 00:15:46.470 --> 00:15:49.990 had on Okay. So 32. Skeleton mask or something. 252 00:15:49.990 --> 00:15:53.670 Mhmm. And he was one who 253 00:15:53.670 --> 00:15:57.510 put me down for being, you know, a 254 00:15:57.510 --> 00:16:01.245 clergy woman. So but I 255 00:16:01.245 --> 00:16:04.685 think, if I look to to the other 256 00:16:04.685 --> 00:16:08.365 pictures of what's happened here in Nashville, there was 257 00:16:08.365 --> 00:16:12.204 a bigger march with more people walking down the 258 00:16:12.204 --> 00:16:15.620 street with mask on. And it 259 00:16:16.180 --> 00:16:19.540 you know, when I was 3 years old, my dad was 260 00:16:19.540 --> 00:16:22.760 transferred from the from to Greenville, Mississippi. 261 00:16:24.100 --> 00:16:27.860 The family moved there because of the Klan. My dad was 262 00:16:27.860 --> 00:16:31.575 with the FBI. And so one 263 00:16:31.575 --> 00:16:35.255 of the things that, they practiced at that 264 00:16:35.255 --> 00:16:38.935 time was outing the people who were 265 00:16:38.935 --> 00:16:42.455 Klansmen at their business 266 00:16:42.455 --> 00:16:46.090 luncheons. The FBI would go and 267 00:16:46.150 --> 00:16:49.610 flash their badge and say something about where they were. 268 00:16:49.830 --> 00:16:53.590 So it was the outing them and then that peer pressure, at 269 00:16:53.590 --> 00:16:56.090 least in part, from other businessmen, 270 00:16:57.395 --> 00:16:59.895 which it was businessmen at the time, 271 00:17:00.915 --> 00:17:04.515 that would have at least, you know, 272 00:17:04.515 --> 00:17:06.855 taken them out for a while. 273 00:17:07.955 --> 00:17:11.190 Hate is hate, and it lives on. It, 274 00:17:11.669 --> 00:17:15.429 it a gross comparison. But to think 275 00:17:15.429 --> 00:17:19.190 about hate as if it were a 276 00:17:19.190 --> 00:17:22.089 cockroach is an apt 277 00:17:23.285 --> 00:17:26.964 description because a cockroach can get in 278 00:17:26.964 --> 00:17:28.985 through any tiny crevice. 279 00:17:30.565 --> 00:17:34.405 Its tentacles peep through. And before you 280 00:17:34.405 --> 00:17:37.600 know it, not only do you have 1, you have 281 00:17:37.860 --> 00:17:40.800 2 and 10 and a 100. 282 00:17:41.900 --> 00:17:45.520 And with hate, I think we let 283 00:17:46.060 --> 00:17:49.740 ourselves we let those crevices grow in our 284 00:17:49.740 --> 00:17:53.565 lives when we entertain 285 00:17:55.225 --> 00:17:58.825 hateful things. We laugh at someone. We put down 286 00:17:58.825 --> 00:18:02.425 someone. We then get with other people who 287 00:18:02.425 --> 00:18:06.185 put down the same individual. Then we feel better 288 00:18:06.185 --> 00:18:09.060 about ourselves temporarily. 289 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:13.700 And so hate is something that Christians 290 00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:17.760 really need to guard our hearts against. And we think about, you know, 291 00:18:17.760 --> 00:18:21.520 we are to guard our hearts and minds in Christ Jesus. That's what 292 00:18:21.520 --> 00:18:24.485 we're called to do. Because I was getting 293 00:18:25.425 --> 00:18:28.565 I would be talking with Joey, the guy with the mohawk, 294 00:18:29.585 --> 00:18:33.205 and then the lead guy, who I call the carnival barker, 295 00:18:33.345 --> 00:18:36.785 he would come up and start throwing literature in my face and saying 296 00:18:36.785 --> 00:18:40.190 things, horrendous things to me. So I turn around and talk to 297 00:18:40.190 --> 00:18:44.029 him. Some of that, I can't repeat, what 298 00:18:44.029 --> 00:18:47.710 he said nor what I said. I didn't say anything in hate, but I 299 00:18:47.710 --> 00:18:51.470 did say things I would not wanna repeat here. But 300 00:18:51.470 --> 00:18:54.894 I told him, do you feel like you can 301 00:18:54.894 --> 00:18:58.654 only be all that you are if you are 302 00:18:58.654 --> 00:19:00.995 putting down somebody else? And 303 00:19:02.254 --> 00:19:05.475 he would not he his armor 304 00:19:05.695 --> 00:19:09.450 was all the way up. Whereas with Joey, 305 00:19:10.070 --> 00:19:13.750 I could actually look in his eyes and talk with 306 00:19:13.750 --> 00:19:17.290 him. Yeah. It's the mask thing, 307 00:19:18.470 --> 00:19:22.150 maybe it does protect them against losing their jobs. We 308 00:19:22.150 --> 00:19:25.934 know January 6 people, when their faces were uncovered, 309 00:19:25.995 --> 00:19:29.755 many of them lost their jobs. So here we 310 00:19:29.755 --> 00:19:33.434 are today, and we've 311 00:19:33.434 --> 00:19:37.215 got we've got Nazis in Nashville. Well, I think about carnival 312 00:19:37.274 --> 00:19:41.030 Barker there. If I'm it's pretty easy 313 00:19:41.030 --> 00:19:44.550 to pick him out as well, you know, even though I wasn't there, but he 314 00:19:44.550 --> 00:19:48.230 didn't have a mask on when he was wearing big sunglasses. Although it's still 315 00:19:48.230 --> 00:19:51.110 not all that tough, you know, if you knew this person in real life to 316 00:19:51.110 --> 00:19:54.875 say that's him for sure. So 317 00:19:54.875 --> 00:19:58.235 I don't know. Still that is is curious to me, like, why he felt like 318 00:19:58.235 --> 00:20:01.995 he needed to cover up with with sunglasses. Something's 319 00:20:01.995 --> 00:20:05.675 going on there. But Something's going on. And when I tried to look into his 320 00:20:05.675 --> 00:20:09.080 eyes, the glasses were dark enough where I couldn't really see them. 321 00:20:09.780 --> 00:20:13.620 Mhmm. And I almost asked him to take them off. It wasn't 322 00:20:13.620 --> 00:20:17.460 that right, but I didn't. Well, there's other pictures of him indoors, and he's 323 00:20:17.460 --> 00:20:21.220 still wearing the sunglasses. So Yeah. They're on for a reason. Yeah. Yeah. 324 00:20:21.220 --> 00:20:24.645 Well, you didn't set out that day to confront 325 00:20:24.645 --> 00:20:28.165 Nazis. You sent out to go to a a a 326 00:20:28.165 --> 00:20:31.765 unity rally. What was the mood inside the unity 327 00:20:31.765 --> 00:20:34.345 rally like? Oh, it was beautiful. 328 00:20:35.540 --> 00:20:39.320 There was singing. There was live music. There was dancing, 329 00:20:40.580 --> 00:20:44.340 people hugging each other. I think it 330 00:20:44.340 --> 00:20:48.120 really did show that Nashville is so much better than this. 331 00:20:49.255 --> 00:20:51.595 And the mayor of Nashville, Freddie O'Connell, 332 00:20:52.615 --> 00:20:56.295 spoke and then also reverend Steven 333 00:20:56.295 --> 00:20:59.675 Handy, who's United Methodist pastor among others. 334 00:21:00.215 --> 00:21:04.000 And it was it was powerful. I 335 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:07.679 think also, you know, when I 336 00:21:07.679 --> 00:21:11.360 look at the unity that is needed to overcome something like 337 00:21:11.360 --> 00:21:15.145 this, it was present that day, and it 338 00:21:15.145 --> 00:21:18.684 doesn't need to just be a 1 hour thing 339 00:21:18.825 --> 00:21:22.505 once in a while in Nashville. If we cannot work 340 00:21:22.505 --> 00:21:26.025 together against Nazis, oh my 341 00:21:26.025 --> 00:21:29.870 gosh. We seriously have problems. We need to be working 342 00:21:30.090 --> 00:21:33.390 across faith lines, across, 343 00:21:34.570 --> 00:21:38.330 racial, socioeconomic, because when we come 344 00:21:38.330 --> 00:21:41.950 together and put our voices together for good, we 345 00:21:42.010 --> 00:21:45.395 far outweigh those voices of hate. 346 00:21:46.015 --> 00:21:49.615 So we're stronger together. And I think that that 347 00:21:49.615 --> 00:21:53.455 rally was just a glimpse into what how we 348 00:21:53.455 --> 00:21:57.220 could be living together here. Do you feel like the presence outside 349 00:21:57.600 --> 00:22:00.580 impacted anything that went on inside the rally? 350 00:22:01.600 --> 00:22:05.279 It didn't, because, I mean, the music and 351 00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:09.105 everything drowned out their voices. So, they 352 00:22:09.105 --> 00:22:12.865 were yelling obscene things. And, well, the carnival 353 00:22:12.865 --> 00:22:16.705 barker was. And but it didn't it 354 00:22:16.705 --> 00:22:20.305 didn't disrupt anything. I think there 355 00:22:20.305 --> 00:22:24.110 is that ongoing tension in 356 00:22:24.350 --> 00:22:27.790 among Jewish people that something could happen 357 00:22:27.790 --> 00:22:31.090 anytime because it's so ingrained in their history 358 00:22:31.950 --> 00:22:35.710 Mhmm. With the holocaust, before the holocaust, like all of the 359 00:22:35.710 --> 00:22:39.465 different ways that Jewish people have been oppressed. And, yet 360 00:22:39.465 --> 00:22:43.225 they are our faith ancestors. And so there 361 00:22:43.225 --> 00:22:46.585 is an obligation to care for them. There's faith 362 00:22:46.585 --> 00:22:50.424 obligation to care for anyone who is, yeah, 363 00:22:50.424 --> 00:22:54.220 the human family because we're all one. But 364 00:22:54.220 --> 00:22:57.900 I don't think that we can just forsake our 365 00:22:57.900 --> 00:23:01.340 our past, our his our faith 366 00:23:01.340 --> 00:23:05.020 ancestors. And I think that that's what we've 367 00:23:05.020 --> 00:23:08.695 done. I think, also, some people might be concerned 368 00:23:08.755 --> 00:23:12.435 because they fear since the war in 369 00:23:12.435 --> 00:23:16.035 Gaza that showing support for 370 00:23:16.035 --> 00:23:19.815 Jewish people looks like you support the war in Gaza. 371 00:23:20.195 --> 00:23:22.615 And I'm more of a nuanced 372 00:23:23.660 --> 00:23:27.340 kind of thinker. I don't just have 373 00:23:27.340 --> 00:23:31.100 that binary switch where it's like, I'm not gonna be with Jewish 374 00:23:31.100 --> 00:23:34.799 people because I don't agree with the war. Because people 375 00:23:35.020 --> 00:23:38.240 in other parts of the world could be totally against America 376 00:23:38.380 --> 00:23:41.794 for certain things it does. Well and they 377 00:23:41.794 --> 00:23:45.014 are. But I don't think that way. And 378 00:23:45.394 --> 00:23:48.835 so, yes, I could show up at that rally and be there and 379 00:23:48.835 --> 00:23:52.559 support my friends who many of them also 380 00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:56.160 are against that war. But, you know, it did make me 381 00:23:56.160 --> 00:23:59.920 wonder. There was a great crowd there, but it did make me wonder 382 00:23:59.920 --> 00:24:03.460 if there would have been more people had the war 383 00:24:03.840 --> 00:24:06.740 not gone this way 384 00:24:08.135 --> 00:24:11.895 after the initial, terrorist attack. You've 385 00:24:11.895 --> 00:24:15.335 helped well, you've developed the the triumph over 386 00:24:15.335 --> 00:24:19.095 trauma program and somebody who's showing up to a 387 00:24:19.095 --> 00:24:22.820 unity rally and is all 388 00:24:22.820 --> 00:24:25.960 of a sudden confronted with signs of hate, 389 00:24:26.420 --> 00:24:30.120 swastikas, that can be a traumatizing event. 390 00:24:31.299 --> 00:24:35.145 How do we, who maybe aren't quite as 391 00:24:35.145 --> 00:24:38.845 directly affected, how do we help others kind of process 392 00:24:38.905 --> 00:24:42.745 that trauma from harassment? Or, you know, if you got one of 393 00:24:42.745 --> 00:24:45.805 these bags in your driveway, like, how can we express 394 00:24:46.105 --> 00:24:49.710 a a sense of care and togetherness with people? 395 00:24:50.330 --> 00:24:53.850 Yeah. That's a great question. And the triumph over 396 00:24:53.850 --> 00:24:57.390 trauma work really equips volunteers to be 397 00:24:57.770 --> 00:25:01.585 to understand how trauma affects the body and 398 00:25:01.585 --> 00:25:05.365 how to recognize signs of it, how to recognize triggers 399 00:25:05.505 --> 00:25:09.044 in ourselves and others, and then how to 400 00:25:09.505 --> 00:25:13.265 deescalate or self regulate so that 401 00:25:13.265 --> 00:25:17.040 we become, more mindful. And, 402 00:25:18.220 --> 00:25:21.680 you know, we when we get triggered, we go into an emotional mindset. 403 00:25:22.700 --> 00:25:25.920 And that's not always the best place to 404 00:25:26.540 --> 00:25:28.695 to do to think straight. 405 00:25:30.134 --> 00:25:33.595 And so that work really focuses on 406 00:25:34.695 --> 00:25:38.134 when we lean into emotions and lean into 407 00:25:38.134 --> 00:25:41.514 reason, those 2 intersect 408 00:25:42.259 --> 00:25:45.940 emotions and the rational mind into a 409 00:25:45.940 --> 00:25:49.539 wise mind. And that state of being is the 410 00:25:49.539 --> 00:25:53.059 place where we can be our best from because we're 411 00:25:53.059 --> 00:25:56.659 honoring our emotions. We also have the ability to think straight and 412 00:25:56.659 --> 00:26:00.285 plan productively. But 413 00:26:00.285 --> 00:26:03.965 for those who are simply wanting to know, like, how do you 414 00:26:03.965 --> 00:26:07.805 support someone, I think showing 415 00:26:07.805 --> 00:26:11.470 up for them, being there When they ask you to 416 00:26:11.470 --> 00:26:14.770 be at a unity rally or something, go. 417 00:26:15.230 --> 00:26:18.990 Make that your priority. Just physically be there. You don't have to go 418 00:26:18.990 --> 00:26:22.750 talk to Nazis like I did. Just go and sit with them. Be 419 00:26:22.750 --> 00:26:26.365 with them. You know, go to different events 420 00:26:26.585 --> 00:26:30.265 that include different people from your community. I've 421 00:26:30.265 --> 00:26:34.025 also been to an event recently at the mosque here in 422 00:26:34.025 --> 00:26:37.730 Nashville that was on the war in Gaza. And so 423 00:26:37.790 --> 00:26:41.170 also being with people there who were losing family 424 00:26:41.230 --> 00:26:44.850 members and friends who live in that part of world. 425 00:26:45.470 --> 00:26:48.770 So showing up physically is the best thing. 426 00:26:49.795 --> 00:26:53.635 If we can't do that, then being able to call them and 427 00:26:53.635 --> 00:26:57.415 listen, to be able to say, how is it 428 00:26:58.275 --> 00:27:01.575 how are you feeling today? How's it with your soul right now? 429 00:27:02.370 --> 00:27:05.890 And not trying to solve their 430 00:27:05.890 --> 00:27:09.190 problems, but to simply be there and listen. 431 00:27:10.130 --> 00:27:13.890 I think also, when we do go 432 00:27:13.890 --> 00:27:17.465 into these darker spaces with people, 433 00:27:17.765 --> 00:27:21.465 we have to care for ourselves more deeply afterwards. 434 00:27:22.805 --> 00:27:26.565 And so, like, for myself, there's been a lot of 435 00:27:26.565 --> 00:27:30.325 things that I've gone through throughout my life where afterwards, I just 436 00:27:30.325 --> 00:27:33.760 felt so awful. And 437 00:27:34.060 --> 00:27:37.440 the Nazi conversation wasn't actually one of those times, 438 00:27:37.980 --> 00:27:41.820 but, but we do have to be sensitive to 439 00:27:41.820 --> 00:27:45.485 how we are feeling. Because sometimes 440 00:27:45.705 --> 00:27:48.605 when a person starts talking about their trauma, 441 00:27:49.785 --> 00:27:53.145 what it does is it hits a 442 00:27:53.145 --> 00:27:56.585 bruise within us as something that's 443 00:27:56.585 --> 00:27:57.565 not healed. 444 00:28:00.040 --> 00:28:03.800 It's not just that I can't listen to this 445 00:28:03.800 --> 00:28:07.340 person. It's that person is touching 446 00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:10.380 something within me that is not well. 447 00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:15.180 And when that happens, being able to sit with ourselves 448 00:28:16.335 --> 00:28:19.555 and provide loving touch to ourselves. 449 00:28:20.175 --> 00:28:23.615 If sometimes we feel pain in our chest, we have 450 00:28:23.615 --> 00:28:27.135 certain bad thoughts. Sometimes we have it in our 451 00:28:27.135 --> 00:28:30.390 gut. That's where I feel my pain, 452 00:28:30.530 --> 00:28:34.210 emotional pain most of the time. Being able to simply 453 00:28:34.210 --> 00:28:37.350 place a hand over that space and breathe 454 00:28:38.050 --> 00:28:41.895 deeply. Oxygen to the brain is 455 00:28:41.895 --> 00:28:44.715 what we need. And often when we get triggered, 456 00:28:45.895 --> 00:28:49.575 we breathe more and more shallow when that's the 457 00:28:49.575 --> 00:28:53.195 time that we need to stop and just breathe 458 00:28:53.415 --> 00:28:57.250 deeply because we need the oxygen to flow 459 00:28:57.250 --> 00:29:01.010 to our brain so that we can think straight and think with 460 00:29:01.010 --> 00:29:04.770 a wise mind. Thank you so much for for sharing the insight with 461 00:29:04.770 --> 00:29:08.544 us. Do you have one more question for you, Neelley? As you 462 00:29:08.544 --> 00:29:11.985 think about the events of the Unity Rally 463 00:29:11.985 --> 00:29:15.044 Day, as you reflect back upon them, 464 00:29:16.145 --> 00:29:19.760 do you feel like you're carrying a lesson away, or is there 465 00:29:19.760 --> 00:29:23.600 something that you're going to remember going forward based upon the events of that 466 00:29:23.600 --> 00:29:27.200 day? Yeah. It has oh, 467 00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:30.820 there's so many things, Ryan. There's so many things. I think, 468 00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:35.794 all of the different things that they said to me are 469 00:29:35.794 --> 00:29:39.014 things that I'm I'm making note of. 470 00:29:39.475 --> 00:29:43.174 I'm also researching hate because 471 00:29:43.554 --> 00:29:47.315 hate you know, trauma let me get back to trauma for a 472 00:29:47.315 --> 00:29:51.010 second because mental illness is something that has been 473 00:29:51.010 --> 00:29:54.770 so stigmatized in this country. The 474 00:29:54.770 --> 00:29:58.610 science behind trauma shows that when we go 475 00:29:58.610 --> 00:30:02.015 through a bad experience, our bodies record 476 00:30:02.015 --> 00:30:05.315 that physically. It's in our central nervous systems. 477 00:30:05.855 --> 00:30:08.675 And so to me, that is helping to destigmatize 478 00:30:09.775 --> 00:30:12.915 mental illness into more of a physical, 479 00:30:13.215 --> 00:30:16.910 emotional, and spiritual, holistic way 480 00:30:16.910 --> 00:30:20.290 of looking at people and the needs that they have. 481 00:30:20.750 --> 00:30:24.190 With hate, it also has felt 482 00:30:24.190 --> 00:30:27.810 so abstract, and it continues to feel abstract 483 00:30:28.505 --> 00:30:32.264 that there are people who are doing research on the 484 00:30:32.264 --> 00:30:36.024 neuroscience of hate. And so that's something else 485 00:30:36.024 --> 00:30:39.404 that I'm looking into because there are shifted 486 00:30:39.705 --> 00:30:43.160 patterns in the brain that happen when 487 00:30:43.160 --> 00:30:46.780 people hate, that sometimes come out of this 488 00:30:46.840 --> 00:30:50.620 us versus them mentality. And so 489 00:30:50.840 --> 00:30:54.200 I think that the up close conversation that I had with 490 00:30:54.200 --> 00:30:57.835 them is something that will be 491 00:30:57.835 --> 00:31:01.595 in my mind as I study these 492 00:31:01.595 --> 00:31:04.975 other things. And then I'm going to be producing 493 00:31:05.755 --> 00:31:08.940 a 3, 3 episode or 494 00:31:09.500 --> 00:31:12.399 3, not episode, but, 495 00:31:13.019 --> 00:31:15.759 series. 3 articles. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. 496 00:31:16.779 --> 00:31:20.620 For United Methodist News Service, and we'll 497 00:31:20.620 --> 00:31:24.465 dive more deeply into these things there. Well, Neelley, thanks for sharing 498 00:31:24.465 --> 00:31:28.225 this story once again. You shared it very well on your on your 499 00:31:28.225 --> 00:31:31.905 own podcast, Women Rise. And I 500 00:31:31.905 --> 00:31:35.425 encourage people who want to hear a little bit more of this story and some 501 00:31:35.425 --> 00:31:38.620 of the specific things that were said to check out that episode as well. And 502 00:31:38.620 --> 00:31:42.299 we'll definitely link up the articles that you're sharing with the News 503 00:31:42.299 --> 00:31:45.980 once we, have those on our web page. So thank you so 504 00:31:45.980 --> 00:31:49.740 much. Thank you so much, Ryan. Thanks again 505 00:31:49.740 --> 00:31:53.205 for joining us on Compass. A couple other episodes to 506 00:31:53.284 --> 00:31:56.505 explore include episode 133 called cultivating 507 00:31:56.885 --> 00:32:00.644 empathy in polarized times. That was with John Pavlovitz. And 508 00:32:00.644 --> 00:32:04.245 episode 110, linking love and justice with Otis 509 00:32:04.245 --> 00:32:07.620 Moss the third. Compass is a production of United Methodist 510 00:32:07.780 --> 00:32:11.220 communications. More episodes and show notes are 511 00:32:11.220 --> 00:32:12.760 available at umc.org/compass. 512 00:32:15.300 --> 00:32:18.980 New episodes come out every other Wednesday. So we'll talk again in 513 00:32:18.980 --> 00:32:19.720 2 weeks.