WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.540 Welcome back to Compass, finding spirituality in the everyday. 2 00:00:03.840 --> 00:00:07.520 You've probably heard of emotional intelligence, but what 3 00:00:07.520 --> 00:00:11.360 about spiritual intelligence? My name is Ryan 4 00:00:11.360 --> 00:00:14.894 Dunn. And on this episode of Compass, we meet up 5 00:00:15.115 --> 00:00:18.895 with doctor Paul Berns to dive into things like brain development, 6 00:00:19.595 --> 00:00:23.355 emotional attachments, and spiritual journeys. Paul shares 7 00:00:23.355 --> 00:00:27.035 his personal experiences with panic attacks, parenting, and 8 00:00:27.035 --> 00:00:30.390 healing, revealing how these all impacted 9 00:00:30.529 --> 00:00:33.890 his emotional intelligence and how that then spurred him to 10 00:00:33.890 --> 00:00:37.350 address spiritual development in a similar manner. 11 00:00:37.570 --> 00:00:41.030 Reverend doctor Paul Burns is the creator of the GPS 12 00:00:41.090 --> 00:00:44.845 spiritual inventory. He's coached ministry leaders, pastored 13 00:00:44.845 --> 00:00:48.525 churches, and written several books, including blessed encounters I'm 14 00:00:48.525 --> 00:00:52.285 sorry, blessing encounters, and the book that we're talking 15 00:00:52.285 --> 00:00:55.184 about mostly today, Becoming Spiritually 16 00:00:55.725 --> 00:00:59.200 Intelligent. So join us as we explore this unique 17 00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:02.640 perspective on prayer, anxiety, and the 18 00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:06.420 complexities of human relationships and the human 19 00:01:06.560 --> 00:01:08.740 mind. That's next on Compass. 20 00:01:11.665 --> 00:01:15.445 My soul is joyful and excited. Wonderful. 21 00:01:17.024 --> 00:01:20.865 Any particular impulse that has you feeling so joyful or 22 00:01:20.865 --> 00:01:24.704 excited? It's just one of those days. 1, I get to talk with you 23 00:01:24.704 --> 00:01:28.440 and talk to people about something I'm passionate about. But later 24 00:01:28.440 --> 00:01:32.220 this day, later today, my church is gonna have a neighborhood 25 00:01:32.360 --> 00:01:36.200 tailgate party I'm excited about. And, just, you know, when 26 00:01:36.200 --> 00:01:39.880 you're kind of living your purpose as best you can, I think that's where my 27 00:01:39.880 --> 00:01:43.395 joy and excitement comes from? Cool. Well, you're 28 00:01:43.455 --> 00:01:47.235 excited to talk with us about spiritual intelligence. I 29 00:01:47.695 --> 00:01:51.075 spend a good amount of my work moderating 30 00:01:51.295 --> 00:01:54.820 comments on social media. There's definitely a 31 00:01:54.820 --> 00:01:58.340 predominant line of thinking, out there in the 32 00:01:58.340 --> 00:02:02.180 culture at large where people would put together the word 33 00:02:02.180 --> 00:02:05.860 spiritual and, and intelligent and say, well, that 34 00:02:05.860 --> 00:02:09.000 doesn't work. You can't do that. You're 1 or the other. 35 00:02:09.414 --> 00:02:12.775 So tell us about spiritual intelligence. What are you 36 00:02:12.775 --> 00:02:15.355 meaning through spiritual intelligence? Well, 37 00:02:16.375 --> 00:02:20.055 it really begins not so much with IQ intelligence. In 38 00:02:20.055 --> 00:02:23.850 fact, not at all IQ intelligence. It comes out of this thought 39 00:02:23.850 --> 00:02:27.530 of emotional intelligence, which is kinda came 40 00:02:27.530 --> 00:02:31.370 in the in the nineties and really has swept through the corporate world. 41 00:02:31.370 --> 00:02:35.050 And Mhmm. Little by little little by little making its way into the church, 42 00:02:35.050 --> 00:02:38.584 but emotional intelligence is about understanding and 43 00:02:38.584 --> 00:02:42.265 managing your emotions so that, you 44 00:02:42.265 --> 00:02:46.045 you relate to people in in good ways 45 00:02:46.265 --> 00:02:49.704 rather than in bad ways. And so spiritual 46 00:02:49.704 --> 00:02:53.390 intelligence is really a riff off of emotional intelligence 47 00:02:54.010 --> 00:02:57.850 to where now God is part of the equations. 48 00:02:57.850 --> 00:03:01.690 It's not just me and you. It's God and me and you, and 49 00:03:01.690 --> 00:03:05.450 how how a relationship with God can inform the 50 00:03:05.450 --> 00:03:09.105 way we relate to other people. It really another 51 00:03:09.105 --> 00:03:12.625 way you could say it is, it is your ability to love, to 52 00:03:12.625 --> 00:03:15.925 receive and give love. K. Part of our 53 00:03:16.465 --> 00:03:20.225 emotional intelligence is in recognizing how 54 00:03:20.225 --> 00:03:23.719 our attachments of the past, our early attachments 55 00:03:23.780 --> 00:03:27.620 affect our relationships in the present. How do 56 00:03:27.620 --> 00:03:31.159 our early attachments affect our spiritual 57 00:03:31.379 --> 00:03:35.155 relationship, our relationship with God? Well, that was 58 00:03:35.155 --> 00:03:38.754 really kind of my starting question. There's the question of 59 00:03:38.754 --> 00:03:42.435 is why do some people believe, have faith, and other people 60 00:03:42.435 --> 00:03:46.055 don't? And, you know, my own tradition in the Presbyterian Church, 61 00:03:46.435 --> 00:03:49.970 our go to answer is God chose you to believe. 62 00:03:49.970 --> 00:03:53.270 God gave you the gift of belief. And well then, 63 00:03:53.730 --> 00:03:57.270 why would God not give that to everybody? And 64 00:03:57.330 --> 00:04:01.095 so that I began looking at that question and found that how 65 00:04:01.095 --> 00:04:04.855 do people develop to have the ability to have 66 00:04:04.855 --> 00:04:08.615 trusting, loving relationships in general? And it goes back to 67 00:04:08.615 --> 00:04:12.215 those early, early formational relationships as 68 00:04:12.215 --> 00:04:15.900 babies and children with our parents and other caregivers. 69 00:04:16.519 --> 00:04:19.899 And, and this thing that forms in us called attachment, 70 00:04:21.399 --> 00:04:24.860 and, and our attachment can be secure, 71 00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:29.375 which gives us a sense of well, a sense 72 00:04:29.375 --> 00:04:32.975 of that we are worthy of being loved and we can trust other to 73 00:04:32.975 --> 00:04:36.735 trust others to love us. And it gives us some foundation to have a 74 00:04:36.735 --> 00:04:40.495 loving trusting relationship. But not every and 75 00:04:40.495 --> 00:04:44.170 nobody has a totally secure attachment. 76 00:04:44.950 --> 00:04:48.550 Some people have insecure attachment to where they 77 00:04:48.550 --> 00:04:52.330 just want to push away when times get tough 78 00:04:52.470 --> 00:04:56.070 and others want to really kind of codependently cling 79 00:04:56.070 --> 00:04:59.725 on, you know, and unintentionally push people 80 00:04:59.725 --> 00:05:03.405 away. And so I began exploring attachment. And so that 81 00:05:03.405 --> 00:05:07.005 is, I think, if you do 82 00:05:07.005 --> 00:05:10.845 not have some sense that you are worthy of love and 83 00:05:10.845 --> 00:05:14.539 that you can trust others to love you, it would be very hard, I 84 00:05:14.539 --> 00:05:18.139 think, to be able to believe that God, 85 00:05:18.139 --> 00:05:21.659 an invisible being could love you and you could trust this 86 00:05:21.659 --> 00:05:25.099 invisible being. Yeah. This is a 87 00:05:25.099 --> 00:05:28.625 very different approach, from a pastoral 88 00:05:28.925 --> 00:05:32.685 perspective that you're taking. Was there something going on in your 89 00:05:32.685 --> 00:05:36.145 own life that was kind of pushing along this new 90 00:05:36.605 --> 00:05:39.505 awakening or this new perspective that you were adopting? 91 00:05:40.710 --> 00:05:44.550 Well, I mean, some of it is that theological question that I 92 00:05:44.550 --> 00:05:48.390 brought up is why, you know. But but also in 93 00:05:48.390 --> 00:05:52.170 my own, this really started in many ways with my own experience 94 00:05:52.310 --> 00:05:55.535 with, with panic attacks, 95 00:05:56.475 --> 00:06:00.155 which, you know, started happening to me about a dozen 96 00:06:00.235 --> 00:06:04.075 about 10 years ago. I was really trying to understand 97 00:06:04.075 --> 00:06:07.850 what was going on inside of me and, you know, where did this 98 00:06:07.850 --> 00:06:11.310 come from? So I just began understanding, trying to understand 99 00:06:11.850 --> 00:06:14.830 my brain and my emotional life 100 00:06:15.690 --> 00:06:19.370 and, and how to get a handle on this thing and not 101 00:06:19.370 --> 00:06:22.955 just to cope with panic and anxiety, but 102 00:06:22.955 --> 00:06:26.735 to to find a sense of healing. And so that, 103 00:06:27.514 --> 00:06:30.955 understanding how humans develop and and how 104 00:06:30.955 --> 00:06:34.740 trauma and grief can impact the development. And 105 00:06:34.740 --> 00:06:38.120 that's really kind of a starting place for me. And then raising 106 00:06:38.740 --> 00:06:42.420 children, we adopted a child and then a second child and trying 107 00:06:42.420 --> 00:06:46.120 to understand, how to best raise our children, 108 00:06:46.564 --> 00:06:49.305 how to how to give them a sense of security. 109 00:06:50.564 --> 00:06:54.324 So really and it is a very personal work. I don't wanna 110 00:06:54.324 --> 00:06:58.085 mess my kids up. I want to give them I want them to 111 00:06:58.085 --> 00:07:00.664 know that they're loved. I want to be a trusted leader. Yeah. 112 00:07:03.020 --> 00:07:06.319 Has your work in spiritual intelligence 113 00:07:06.699 --> 00:07:10.160 impacted than your ability to, 114 00:07:12.300 --> 00:07:15.819 like the, I get your sense of not wanting to use the word cope with 115 00:07:15.819 --> 00:07:19.515 the anxiety, but, to process the anxiety? 116 00:07:21.415 --> 00:07:25.015 Yeah. It has a lot. And with other 117 00:07:25.015 --> 00:07:28.475 things, I mean, therapy is a big part of of of, 118 00:07:28.775 --> 00:07:32.455 I think, for me, developing spiritual intelligence. Being 119 00:07:32.455 --> 00:07:36.270 heard compassionately by another person is 120 00:07:36.270 --> 00:07:40.030 is a path of healing. And so that's part of the 121 00:07:40.030 --> 00:07:43.650 healing part, but also, you know, 122 00:07:44.190 --> 00:07:47.789 understanding how the brain works in in a relational way. 123 00:07:47.789 --> 00:07:51.375 It's on the right side of the brain is the relational part of our brain. 124 00:07:51.755 --> 00:07:55.595 And when we can when we're in a sent when when 125 00:07:55.595 --> 00:07:59.355 we're in an anxious state or feeling panicky, it 126 00:07:59.355 --> 00:08:03.120 feels very counterintuitive to wanna reach out and connect 127 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:06.800 with people. We wanna I just wanna turn off the lights and 128 00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:10.480 close the door. Right? But it's actual relating to 129 00:08:10.480 --> 00:08:13.940 another person that restores our brain's sense 130 00:08:14.465 --> 00:08:17.845 of security and and trust. In your book, 131 00:08:18.544 --> 00:08:22.245 you talk quite a bit about brain development 132 00:08:22.544 --> 00:08:26.384 and, how it impacts our our interactions with the 133 00:08:26.384 --> 00:08:29.810 world. I I didn't get any class like that in seminary. 134 00:08:29.950 --> 00:08:33.490 So what what spurred this kind of, 135 00:08:34.830 --> 00:08:38.590 learning that you had about how the brain development? It's 136 00:08:38.590 --> 00:08:42.350 surprising that it actually was at a seminary. Okay. Tell 137 00:08:42.350 --> 00:08:46.154 me more. I I I was doing a doctoral program, a 138 00:08:46.154 --> 00:08:49.454 doctor of ministry program that was focused on 139 00:08:49.675 --> 00:08:53.274 coaching. And I I I was doing faith coaching, life 140 00:08:53.274 --> 00:08:56.880 coaching, spiritual coaching, whatever you wanna call it. And they 141 00:08:56.880 --> 00:09:00.420 had both a coaching department and a psychology department. 142 00:09:00.880 --> 00:09:03.779 And so part of our curriculum was, 143 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:08.500 some some different authors, psychiatrist who 144 00:09:08.855 --> 00:09:12.295 wrote from a faith perspective and kind of connecting the dots of 145 00:09:12.295 --> 00:09:15.194 spirituality and brain science. Like, 146 00:09:15.894 --> 00:09:19.735 Kurt Thompson is a person. He wrote a book called the 147 00:09:19.735 --> 00:09:22.795 anatomy of the soul, and it was a neuros 148 00:09:23.175 --> 00:09:26.890 neuroscience informed neuroinformed explanation 149 00:09:27.030 --> 00:09:30.630 of spirituality from a Christian perspective. Some other 150 00:09:30.630 --> 00:09:33.990 people, many of you know, there are people out there now called neuro 151 00:09:33.990 --> 00:09:37.670 theologians. There's a new word for you. I don't 152 00:09:37.670 --> 00:09:41.495 know if I put myself in that category. But so 153 00:09:41.495 --> 00:09:44.875 I was learning it at seminary. Okay. All right. 154 00:09:46.215 --> 00:09:49.895 And what are some of the surprising moments you've 155 00:09:49.895 --> 00:09:53.095 had in looking at that or some of the learnings that you've taken away and 156 00:09:53.095 --> 00:09:56.620 how brain science has impacted spiritual 157 00:09:56.620 --> 00:10:00.380 growth? Well, a couple of things I'll mention. 1 is, you 158 00:10:00.380 --> 00:10:03.980 know, when it comes to the fear center of your 159 00:10:03.980 --> 00:10:07.820 brain, which, you know, usually gets talked about as the amygdala, you 160 00:10:07.820 --> 00:10:11.375 have 2 on either side. And that that 161 00:10:11.375 --> 00:10:15.055 thing gets activated and it shuts down to some 162 00:10:15.055 --> 00:10:18.495 degree, the the front part of your brain, the 163 00:10:18.495 --> 00:10:22.095 prefrontal cortex, where things like discernment and 164 00:10:22.095 --> 00:10:25.800 wisdom and empathy and, you know, emotional 165 00:10:25.800 --> 00:10:29.560 regulation happen. And so and so 166 00:10:29.560 --> 00:10:33.400 when you when something that is disturbing you, something 167 00:10:33.400 --> 00:10:36.920 that your brain kind of signals that there's 168 00:10:36.920 --> 00:10:40.365 something potentially dangerous, The fear center gets 169 00:10:40.365 --> 00:10:43.725 activated before the thinking center. And so learning 170 00:10:43.725 --> 00:10:47.425 how to be able to calm yourself enough 171 00:10:48.125 --> 00:10:51.725 to have an exploratory, it's usually not a 172 00:10:51.725 --> 00:10:55.400 bear running at us, it's usually a human being that have a 173 00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:59.320 has a different viewpoint and we're not really being threatened life or 174 00:10:59.320 --> 00:11:03.080 death and yet, but our brain tells us we are unless 175 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:06.760 we can overcome that. And another thing 176 00:11:06.760 --> 00:11:10.495 that I think, is, is really 177 00:11:10.495 --> 00:11:14.334 important that I learned and we just like was like a revelation when I 178 00:11:14.334 --> 00:11:17.954 learned it was that the brain, 179 00:11:19.295 --> 00:11:22.915 through either not having secure attachment, 180 00:11:23.055 --> 00:11:26.720 you know, not having loving, trustworthy parents growing 181 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:29.699 up, or maybe even abusive or neglecting parents, 182 00:11:31.839 --> 00:11:35.220 doesn't hook your brain upright. It basically there's a disintegration 183 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:39.699 and trauma can disintegrate your brain as well. 184 00:11:40.065 --> 00:11:43.825 And so there's a dysfunction in your brain that happens that makes 185 00:11:43.825 --> 00:11:47.445 it hard to relate with people or God. 186 00:11:48.065 --> 00:11:51.825 And there is a path of healing that is very simple and 187 00:11:51.825 --> 00:11:55.550 this blew my mind. So your brain can literally be 188 00:11:55.770 --> 00:11:59.290 reintegrated and healed on a very on a physical 189 00:11:59.290 --> 00:12:02.750 level can be healed by being listened to 190 00:12:02.890 --> 00:12:06.545 compassionate. Okay. It hooks 191 00:12:06.545 --> 00:12:10.065 things up. It's almost like you you get the parenting that you didn't 192 00:12:10.065 --> 00:12:13.685 get through another person. Okay. 193 00:12:13.825 --> 00:12:17.520 Alright. It what does that 194 00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:21.120 look like in your practice? How do you how do 195 00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:24.960 people who might say, well, I don't know who to speak to, or 196 00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:28.400 where's the compassionate listener in my life? How do you enter into 197 00:12:28.400 --> 00:12:32.205 that? Well, there's a number of ways. I went out and 198 00:12:32.205 --> 00:12:36.045 hired a compassionate listener, you know. And I do I speak 199 00:12:36.045 --> 00:12:39.645 to I have 2 people, you know, I speak to a 200 00:12:39.645 --> 00:12:43.245 therapist every month. I speak to a life coach every month. And I 201 00:12:43.245 --> 00:12:45.580 have pastor colleagues and friends. 202 00:12:46.920 --> 00:12:50.600 So you may have to go find 1. 203 00:12:50.600 --> 00:12:54.360 And it bothers me that that it's cost 204 00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:57.834 prohibitive for many people. But a pastor is a 205 00:12:57.834 --> 00:13:01.515 solution as well. But you might have a 206 00:13:01.515 --> 00:13:05.274 friend that you trust for instance. And like I have a friend, I have 207 00:13:05.274 --> 00:13:09.055 multiple friends that I do this with. I we talk every week 208 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:13.760 or often, and one of us begins by telling me 209 00:13:13.760 --> 00:13:17.220 about how you're doing. And we don't swap stories. 210 00:13:17.680 --> 00:13:20.820 We just, one listens while the other talks, 211 00:13:21.375 --> 00:13:25.215 you know, reflectively. We don't, you know, we we ask questions and then we 212 00:13:25.295 --> 00:13:29.055 the other one takes a turn. And so, you know, we don't interrupt 213 00:13:29.055 --> 00:13:32.415 each other. You know, we don't again, we we don't 214 00:13:32.415 --> 00:13:36.110 share the the story that we're burning to tell because you told me 215 00:13:36.110 --> 00:13:39.170 that story. We're just listening to one another. So listening, 216 00:13:39.790 --> 00:13:43.310 being a good listener, and finding a good listener is a way to 217 00:13:43.310 --> 00:13:46.370 participate in growing each other's spiritual intelligence. 218 00:13:48.225 --> 00:13:51.204 Are there other practical steps that people can take to 219 00:13:52.464 --> 00:13:56.225 deepen their spiritual intelligence? Absolutely. So, you 220 00:13:56.225 --> 00:13:59.904 know, the book outlines 9 different paths that you can 221 00:13:59.904 --> 00:14:03.520 work on that, you know, building, you know, growing in 222 00:14:03.520 --> 00:14:07.280 these different these 9 identified things that came out of my 223 00:14:07.280 --> 00:14:11.040 research. And I'll just throw out a few. One, you 224 00:14:11.040 --> 00:14:14.584 know, with God, we've got, learning to trust 225 00:14:14.644 --> 00:14:18.485 God, which is easier said than done. Maybe the easier one to 226 00:14:18.485 --> 00:14:22.185 focus on is communication with God. So learning, 227 00:14:22.485 --> 00:14:26.260 not just praying, not just expressing yourself to God, but learning to 228 00:14:26.260 --> 00:14:29.640 hear God in some way. I mean, that that's some 229 00:14:29.940 --> 00:14:33.300 next level stuff to be able to experience God 230 00:14:33.300 --> 00:14:36.980 communicating to you in some way. And I've got exercises in the 231 00:14:36.980 --> 00:14:40.454 book for that. A big one is 232 00:14:40.454 --> 00:14:43.194 forgiveness, learning to receive and give forgiveness. 233 00:14:44.134 --> 00:14:47.975 I mean, without forgiveness, it's just like we're we're 234 00:14:47.975 --> 00:14:51.595 plumbing that's stuck, you know, like that's claw. 235 00:14:52.149 --> 00:14:55.910 And until we're able to forgive ourselves or receive forgiveness or 236 00:14:55.910 --> 00:14:59.750 forgive another person, then God's love doesn't get in, God's 237 00:14:59.750 --> 00:15:03.510 love doesn't get out. And so the that 238 00:15:03.510 --> 00:15:07.055 one single practice though, is a daunting practice for 239 00:15:07.055 --> 00:15:10.575 many people. That one practice can make the 240 00:15:10.575 --> 00:15:14.415 biggest difference in your ability to receive and give love to 241 00:15:14.415 --> 00:15:17.955 other people. I wanna backtrack, 242 00:15:18.415 --> 00:15:21.880 for just a moment in talking about the the aspect of 243 00:15:22.340 --> 00:15:25.640 prayer. I've talked with several people who feel like, well, I 244 00:15:26.020 --> 00:15:29.620 talk to God. I don't know if God is listening 245 00:15:29.620 --> 00:15:33.220 though, because I don't hear God talking back. How, when you're 246 00:15:33.220 --> 00:15:36.895 talking about God listening for God, what does that 247 00:15:36.955 --> 00:15:40.735 look like? How do we hear God? Yeah. Well, I think 248 00:15:40.955 --> 00:15:44.715 it it takes we we won't hear or see what we 249 00:15:44.715 --> 00:15:48.500 can't believe. So it's very hard, you know, so you you 250 00:15:48.500 --> 00:15:52.040 have to, in some level, open yourself up to the possibility 251 00:15:52.340 --> 00:15:55.720 of it. Like, I might be able to see God doing something today, 252 00:15:56.180 --> 00:15:59.860 but it takes also imagination. And not 253 00:15:59.860 --> 00:16:03.615 imagination is like you're making something up, but imagination 254 00:16:03.755 --> 00:16:07.535 like, you know, you know, I'll give you an example. 255 00:16:07.675 --> 00:16:11.435 So I I was having one of those days and I just threw it out 256 00:16:11.435 --> 00:16:14.490 to God. I'm like, God, I didn't even know what to say. But 257 00:16:15.050 --> 00:16:18.589 could you say something to me right now? And I, 258 00:16:19.209 --> 00:16:22.810 that kind of inner voice said, keep your eyes open. And 259 00:16:22.810 --> 00:16:26.430 so I was driving in my car and I saw a sign 260 00:16:26.810 --> 00:16:30.464 and the sign, it was Campbell Road. And I'm 261 00:16:30.464 --> 00:16:33.605 like, Campbell, okay. My my daughter's name is Campbell. 262 00:16:34.385 --> 00:16:37.925 And then the very next thing I saw was Nelson's 263 00:16:38.225 --> 00:16:41.825 steak house. And I'm like, that's my son. I've got 264 00:16:41.825 --> 00:16:44.990 Campbell, I've got Nelson. And then lo and behold, 265 00:16:45.450 --> 00:16:48.990 La Hacienda Ranch, ranch house restaurant. 266 00:16:49.850 --> 00:16:53.450 It was the very place where my wife and I had our rehearsal dinner 267 00:16:53.450 --> 00:16:57.265 for before the day before we got married. And then it 268 00:16:57.265 --> 00:17:01.105 was all came together in this moment. I heard God saying to 269 00:17:01.105 --> 00:17:04.945 me, what are you worried about? Do you remember do you 270 00:17:04.945 --> 00:17:08.619 remember when you had blown your previous marriage and 271 00:17:08.619 --> 00:17:11.980 you you you begged me for a a a 272 00:17:11.980 --> 00:17:15.579 wife that would be a good match for you and I gave you 273 00:17:15.579 --> 00:17:19.260 Jennifer and that there it is right there where it happened. And remember 274 00:17:19.260 --> 00:17:22.720 when you prayed for children, you struggled for years to have children 275 00:17:23.204 --> 00:17:26.664 and then finally the solution of adoption came up and boom, 276 00:17:26.885 --> 00:17:30.485 there was Nelson and then boom, there was Campbell. What makes you 277 00:17:30.485 --> 00:17:33.304 think that I'm gonna leave you stranded today? 278 00:17:34.404 --> 00:17:37.909 So I would call that some combination of faith, 279 00:17:37.909 --> 00:17:41.669 openness, and imagination. Yeah. Okay. I can see the 280 00:17:41.669 --> 00:17:45.190 correlation there. Although, it does help to have some literal signs popping 281 00:17:45.190 --> 00:17:48.710 into the story as well. Those who have eyes to 282 00:17:48.710 --> 00:17:52.485 see, ears to hear, Jesus said. Some of the of 283 00:17:52.485 --> 00:17:55.845 the work that you've been sharing through the 284 00:17:55.845 --> 00:17:59.625 book deals a lot with empathy. You've mentioned how, 285 00:18:00.965 --> 00:18:04.680 we can begin to to disarm our fear a bit by 286 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:08.680 talking and relating with people. And yet 287 00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:12.200 that even in of itself can be fear inducing for many 288 00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:15.820 people, especially in the kind of national season 289 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:19.400 that we're in right now. And we're recording this a couple 290 00:18:19.400 --> 00:18:22.915 weeks before the election Tuesday. 291 00:18:23.135 --> 00:18:26.815 So that idea of being able to relate with some 292 00:18:26.815 --> 00:18:30.495 people is, is on the top of people's minds and it, 293 00:18:30.495 --> 00:18:34.130 it feels somewhat fearful. Can spiritual 294 00:18:34.350 --> 00:18:38.050 intelligence help us to open up some relationships 295 00:18:38.430 --> 00:18:41.490 with other people or open ourselves up to empathy with others? 296 00:18:42.110 --> 00:18:45.895 Absolutely. And that's one, that's part of 297 00:18:45.895 --> 00:18:49.735 the big goal of what I'm doing is try to open people's up 298 00:18:49.735 --> 00:18:53.575 empathy up for other people. And and, you 299 00:18:53.575 --> 00:18:56.934 know, there's unhealthy empathy. I wanna say that first of all, there's 300 00:18:56.934 --> 00:18:59.915 codependent empathy that is really about 301 00:19:00.690 --> 00:19:04.390 really about transaction and getting what you need from others or controlling 302 00:19:04.450 --> 00:19:08.049 them to get what you need, manipulation and empathy can be 303 00:19:08.049 --> 00:19:11.270 used in unhealthy ways. But so that aside, 304 00:19:12.610 --> 00:19:16.304 so, you know, we were evolutionarily raised 305 00:19:16.365 --> 00:19:19.184 as a species, to 306 00:19:20.525 --> 00:19:24.205 and to become in a tribe that we developed to 307 00:19:24.205 --> 00:19:27.105 be in tribes for safety, for provision 308 00:19:28.044 --> 00:19:31.760 and things like that. And so this is deep in our 309 00:19:31.760 --> 00:19:35.380 brain and just in our DNA. And so 310 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:39.300 for survival sake, we learned empathy 311 00:19:39.360 --> 00:19:42.735 with the people that are in our tribe. And 312 00:19:42.735 --> 00:19:46.255 then for survival sake, we learned to feel 313 00:19:46.255 --> 00:19:49.855 threatened with people that are not in our tribe. And 314 00:19:49.855 --> 00:19:53.615 so that that goes that's very deep instinctual stuff 315 00:19:53.615 --> 00:19:57.440 in human beings and and hard to overcome. So, you 316 00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:00.899 know, the one of the solutions of that is 317 00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:04.340 trying to expand the potential for 318 00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:08.895 common identity. So yeah. Okay. One may 319 00:20:08.895 --> 00:20:12.575 be a democrat, one may be a republican, but we're 320 00:20:12.575 --> 00:20:16.175 both Americans or, you 321 00:20:16.175 --> 00:20:20.015 know, if all else fails, we're both human beings, but maybe you both 322 00:20:20.015 --> 00:20:23.315 like barbecue. Maybe you both like the same kind of music, 323 00:20:23.670 --> 00:20:27.290 but anytime you can find some common ground, 324 00:20:28.550 --> 00:20:32.390 to to be to to move them from the out group to the 325 00:20:32.390 --> 00:20:36.090 in group of your life, you can find empathy. 326 00:20:36.310 --> 00:20:40.015 That doesn't mean that you should then give up all that you believe, 327 00:20:40.875 --> 00:20:44.635 to please another person. That's codependency again. But 328 00:20:44.635 --> 00:20:48.475 you find a connecting point and then then you can have 329 00:20:48.475 --> 00:20:52.030 a conversation, an exchange of ideas, 330 00:20:52.410 --> 00:20:55.870 perspectives, being able to to see people's 331 00:20:56.010 --> 00:20:59.710 perspectives rather than just your own perspective projected 332 00:20:59.770 --> 00:21:03.485 on them is a big part of empathy. Well, we've seen how 333 00:21:03.545 --> 00:21:06.045 spirituality relates to intelligence. 334 00:21:08.425 --> 00:21:11.885 The other, the organization that you founded is called Soulmetrics. 335 00:21:12.185 --> 00:21:15.705 You seem to be very talented in working with these kind of 336 00:21:15.705 --> 00:21:19.170 paradoxical words because, soul and 337 00:21:19.170 --> 00:21:22.770 measurement are things that don't naturally go together. Tell us 338 00:21:22.770 --> 00:21:26.530 about soul metrics. Thank you. Yeah. My wife came 339 00:21:26.530 --> 00:21:30.130 up with the phrase, by the way, so I give credit. But yeah, no, 340 00:21:30.130 --> 00:21:33.815 I'm of course dealing with the soul. But yeah, when I, when I proposed 341 00:21:34.355 --> 00:21:38.035 my, my, my thesis to 342 00:21:38.035 --> 00:21:41.575 my advisor who is a clinical psychologist, by the way, 343 00:21:42.115 --> 00:21:45.870 when I proposed it to him, I said, look, I've got this theory 344 00:21:45.870 --> 00:21:49.490 of spiritual intelligence, a Christ centered spiritual intelligence. 345 00:21:50.030 --> 00:21:53.710 And I'm trying to put together an experiment, you know, a 346 00:21:53.710 --> 00:21:57.170 project here to to display how it works. 347 00:21:57.390 --> 00:22:01.154 But I need an instrument of measurement 348 00:22:01.154 --> 00:22:04.835 to so people could take it in the beginning and in the end. So some 349 00:22:04.835 --> 00:22:08.275 way of measuring spiritual intelligence. And he said, that would 350 00:22:08.275 --> 00:22:12.120 be great, Paul. Why don't you do that? I'm like, well, 351 00:22:12.120 --> 00:22:15.660 I can think of a million reasons. One being I have no idea 352 00:22:15.800 --> 00:22:18.860 how to create a psychometrically sound assessment. 353 00:22:20.280 --> 00:22:23.000 And I'm sure I didn't say those words because I didn't know what those words 354 00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:26.360 were. But he said that I know how to do it. And so he worked 355 00:22:26.360 --> 00:22:29.975 with me. And what I did was, develop 356 00:22:30.115 --> 00:22:33.174 an instrument of measurement for spiritual intelligence, 357 00:22:34.514 --> 00:22:38.294 and validate it with over 700 358 00:22:38.355 --> 00:22:42.179 participants who took the initial questionnaire, and then 359 00:22:42.179 --> 00:22:45.860 we refined it, based on all the metrics and 360 00:22:45.860 --> 00:22:49.640 data and things like that, statistical data. So 361 00:22:49.860 --> 00:22:53.265 it, people are very hesitant to 362 00:22:53.505 --> 00:22:57.345 put metrics on spirituality. And so let me just say we're 363 00:22:57.345 --> 00:23:00.885 not measuring God. You cannot you cannot 364 00:23:01.025 --> 00:23:04.705 measure God, right? But you can and people have 365 00:23:04.705 --> 00:23:08.465 been measuring the human response to the 366 00:23:08.465 --> 00:23:12.169 world for decades. There's a ton of 367 00:23:12.169 --> 00:23:15.850 assessments that are out there that are valid. And so this 368 00:23:15.850 --> 00:23:19.289 isn't so much measuring God, it is 369 00:23:19.289 --> 00:23:22.190 measuring what impact your belief 370 00:23:23.135 --> 00:23:26.514 or lack of belief in God and 371 00:23:26.894 --> 00:23:30.414 your ability to love or not love self and love neighbor and not love 372 00:23:30.414 --> 00:23:34.174 neighbor. How can that be detected? And 373 00:23:34.174 --> 00:23:37.315 it can be, it can turns out you can do that, 374 00:23:38.669 --> 00:23:42.429 in a psychological, way. Tell me a little bit more. What does 375 00:23:42.429 --> 00:23:45.950 that look like? Like, if I take the test and I get a 9, does 376 00:23:45.950 --> 00:23:49.710 that mean I'm pretty close to God? Not quite 10 377 00:23:49.710 --> 00:23:53.495 close to God, but Well, we do. It's a a 100 378 00:23:53.495 --> 00:23:57.035 a 100 scale. But and so it's 379 00:23:57.415 --> 00:24:01.255 it's measuring, you know, these 9 areas that are 380 00:24:01.255 --> 00:24:04.860 talked about in the book. And and 381 00:24:05.240 --> 00:24:08.620 the score can be a little disturbing, because 382 00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:12.539 we're, we're not usually as, 383 00:24:13.720 --> 00:24:17.100 I would, I don't want to say spiritual. It's just that we've got these interferences 384 00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:21.825 in us. If we have resentments, if we have, 385 00:24:22.525 --> 00:24:26.125 hurts and if we have codependency, if 386 00:24:26.125 --> 00:24:29.665 we, struggle to believe that God is a good God 387 00:24:30.045 --> 00:24:33.790 and a loving God, a personal God, 388 00:24:34.410 --> 00:24:38.010 then all those things impact. And it's really geared towards 389 00:24:38.010 --> 00:24:39.950 measuring your, 390 00:24:41.690 --> 00:24:45.050 your level of secure attachment with God. So it's an 391 00:24:45.050 --> 00:24:48.765 attachment measurement and your level of self 392 00:24:48.825 --> 00:24:52.045 differentiation, which is the opposite of codependency 393 00:24:53.225 --> 00:24:56.445 and your level of empathy. So those three major, 394 00:24:57.145 --> 00:25:00.700 areas of measurement together. And then so you get a score and 395 00:25:00.700 --> 00:25:04.540 then you and I have a conversation. And, we 396 00:25:04.540 --> 00:25:08.140 talk about how you answered the questions and why you answered 397 00:25:08.140 --> 00:25:11.820 them, how you are. And we get to the deeper 398 00:25:11.820 --> 00:25:15.515 ground. It's not really about the assessment at all. It's a way of 399 00:25:15.515 --> 00:25:19.355 having a conversation to get to the deeper ground of the state 400 00:25:19.355 --> 00:25:23.115 of our souls. And what kind of responses do you hear in people 401 00:25:23.115 --> 00:25:26.335 who are taking the test and beginning the the process? 402 00:25:26.840 --> 00:25:30.600 Yeah. Well, some people will say it's about what 403 00:25:30.600 --> 00:25:34.440 I thought, you know, and then they'll tell you tell me why. And 404 00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:37.740 some people will say it felt like a punch in the gut. 405 00:25:38.760 --> 00:25:42.485 And and the reason, you know, is is 406 00:25:42.485 --> 00:25:46.325 an unfortunate reason is because that things 407 00:25:46.325 --> 00:25:49.684 spiritual have become shame inducing for many 408 00:25:49.684 --> 00:25:53.205 people. And so, for instance, if you went to your medical 409 00:25:53.205 --> 00:25:56.804 doctor, your primary physician, you wouldn't tell them how good you're 410 00:25:56.804 --> 00:26:00.640 doing. You would tell them what's wrong with you. But if you 411 00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:03.940 go to your pastor or your spouse 412 00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:07.920 or your best friend and you're dealing with a deeply 413 00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:11.760 spiritual emotional problem, you might be afraid to 414 00:26:11.760 --> 00:26:15.345 talk about it. And if you're afraid to talk about it, 415 00:26:16.365 --> 00:26:19.985 then there's no there's no real way to move forward with it. 416 00:26:20.285 --> 00:26:23.825 And so, really, I I wanna very quickly try to 417 00:26:24.045 --> 00:26:26.225 lower the shame or to deshamify 418 00:26:27.480 --> 00:26:31.240 spirituality and get it into a level that's 419 00:26:31.240 --> 00:26:34.920 a little more clinical, so that we can work with 420 00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:37.980 it. How do you lower that 421 00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:42.355 that barrier of shame? Say that again. How do you lower that 422 00:26:42.355 --> 00:26:45.795 barrier of shame? Yeah. Well, I I I'll often 423 00:26:45.795 --> 00:26:49.255 begin in this conversation, and I'll often begin by, 424 00:26:49.555 --> 00:26:53.155 you know, saying this has nothing to do with the destination of 425 00:26:53.155 --> 00:26:56.850 your soul. This is not heaven or hell conversation, you know, because that's 426 00:26:56.850 --> 00:27:00.530 that's a big factor for a lot of people. And say this and this 427 00:27:00.530 --> 00:27:04.290 is also not how you always are. This is a point 428 00:27:04.290 --> 00:27:07.590 of time assessment. This is how you are on a Friday. 429 00:27:08.225 --> 00:27:11.985 Right? You might be going through grief. You might be have 430 00:27:11.985 --> 00:27:15.205 experienced a trauma that hasn't been fully dealt with. 431 00:27:15.825 --> 00:27:19.665 You might have an unforgiveness that has been eating at 432 00:27:19.665 --> 00:27:23.320 you. It could be something, you know, that happened yesterday, 10 years 433 00:27:23.320 --> 00:27:27.080 ago or 30 years ago, but it's how you are today. And then I'll begin 434 00:27:27.080 --> 00:27:30.840 to look at the strengths of their assessment to say, you know, but you've 435 00:27:30.840 --> 00:27:34.395 got some strong areas here, to 436 00:27:34.395 --> 00:27:38.235 lean into as you begin to deal with areas that need to be 437 00:27:38.235 --> 00:27:41.755 addressed. Paul, thank you for the work that you're doing, for encouraging people in the 438 00:27:41.755 --> 00:27:45.515 way that you are. For those who are interested in learning more about the 439 00:27:45.515 --> 00:27:49.280 work that you're up to, where might they get ahold of you? Well, my 440 00:27:49.280 --> 00:27:53.040 website is soulhyphenmetrics.com. You can 441 00:27:53.120 --> 00:27:56.880 and you can fill out the contact form there. You can email 442 00:27:56.880 --> 00:27:57.860 me at revpaulburnsrevpaulburns@gmail.com 443 00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:04.705 as well. And I'd be glad to talk to you 444 00:28:04.705 --> 00:28:08.225 with whatever you're you're working on. Because I do also pastoring 2 445 00:28:08.225 --> 00:28:11.685 churches. So, just know that my my time 446 00:28:12.305 --> 00:28:15.825 is a little limited in that sense, but I I do want to hear from 447 00:28:15.825 --> 00:28:19.289 anybody that that has a question. I have a network 448 00:28:19.590 --> 00:28:22.950 of 25 trained coaches that I 449 00:28:22.950 --> 00:28:26.330 refer people out to that are trained in the GPS assessment. 450 00:28:27.110 --> 00:28:30.889 And, and so we you're gonna get some help from somewhere. 451 00:28:31.054 --> 00:28:34.735 Or you could just read the book, which has kind of all of 452 00:28:34.735 --> 00:28:38.095 this outlined. Cool. Yep. The book is becoming 453 00:28:38.095 --> 00:28:41.875 spiritually intelligent. Paul, thank you so much for joining us. 454 00:28:42.174 --> 00:28:45.300 You're welcome. My pleasure. Good to meet you. Likewise. 455 00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:50.320 Do you wanna hear more Compass? If this episode struck a chord with 456 00:28:50.320 --> 00:28:54.080 you, then check out episode number 137 with Bruce Reyes 457 00:28:54.080 --> 00:28:57.140 Chow about crafting a clarity of belief. 458 00:28:57.520 --> 00:29:00.945 Episode 134 with Andrew Lang would also be a good one. 459 00:29:00.945 --> 00:29:04.385 It's about creating spiritual practices that are gonna fit 460 00:29:04.385 --> 00:29:07.925 into our busy everyday lives. And while you're listening, 461 00:29:08.545 --> 00:29:12.305 please leave a rating and or review. It's a big help. It would be 462 00:29:12.305 --> 00:29:15.720 so much appreciated. The compass podcast is brought to you by 463 00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:19.240 United Methodist Communications, and you can check out 464 00:29:19.240 --> 00:29:22.840 all of our episodes and get show notes and relevant links 465 00:29:22.840 --> 00:29:24.059 at umc.org/compass. 466 00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:30.705 That's all for this week. We're gonna be back in 2 weeks time with a 467 00:29:30.705 --> 00:29:33.125 new episode. In the meantime, peace.