WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.199 --> 00:00:04.799 Welcome to compass finding spirituality in the everyday. I'm 2 00:00:04.799 --> 00:00:08.500 Ryan Dunn and I don't feel like there's enough doom 3 00:00:08.559 --> 00:00:12.400 and gloom in the world. How about you? We need to amp up 4 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:15.835 the anxiety. Don't we like more darkness, more 5 00:00:15.895 --> 00:00:19.435 defeat, right? So we're gonna dive into Revelation 6 00:00:19.735 --> 00:00:23.435 and apocalypse in the bitter end of all things. 7 00:00:23.575 --> 00:00:27.095 Okay. I'm just kidding. Sort of, sort of kidding. We're talking 8 00:00:27.095 --> 00:00:30.890 about revelation in this episode. That's the final book of the 9 00:00:30.890 --> 00:00:34.570 Bible. It's often pointed towards as a blueprint for 10 00:00:34.570 --> 00:00:38.170 the end of the world, but we're gonna see a bit 11 00:00:38.170 --> 00:00:41.915 different side of revelation in this episode. Not a 12 00:00:41.915 --> 00:00:45.615 side that's about doom and gloom in the end, but one that is about 13 00:00:45.755 --> 00:00:49.595 a new creation and hope and justice. Our 14 00:00:49.595 --> 00:00:53.055 guide for this romp through revelation is Matthew 15 00:00:53.195 --> 00:00:56.820 Ian Fleming. Matthew has given us the book, the end 16 00:00:56.820 --> 00:01:00.660 is the beginning, revelation, hope, and the love that 17 00:01:00.660 --> 00:01:04.260 lit the stars. Matthew launched and leads church anew, 18 00:01:04.260 --> 00:01:07.940 which creates fresh content and vibrant gatherings for the 19 00:01:07.940 --> 00:01:11.585 church that is becoming. He is a pastor in the 20 00:01:11.585 --> 00:01:15.344 evangelical Lutheran church in America and is based in 21 00:01:15.344 --> 00:01:19.045 Minneapolis and possibly like you grew up hearing warnings 22 00:01:19.104 --> 00:01:22.865 about being left behind or that the antichrist walked among 23 00:01:22.865 --> 00:01:26.700 us or that any day Jesus could return with a big sword and 24 00:01:26.700 --> 00:01:30.539 start chopping people. So if that sounds like you, or you're just 25 00:01:30.539 --> 00:01:34.219 curious about things like the rapture, the end times and the second 26 00:01:34.219 --> 00:01:37.705 coming, this episode is for you. Now 27 00:01:37.845 --> 00:01:41.605 speaking of the end of things, 2024 is coming to a 28 00:01:41.605 --> 00:01:45.365 close. As this episode comes out, this episode will 29 00:01:45.365 --> 00:01:48.485 be our last one of the year as we'll take a short break for the 30 00:01:48.485 --> 00:01:52.250 holidays. So our next compass episode will be out to 31 00:01:52.250 --> 00:01:55.869 you January 8, 2025. Looking forward 32 00:01:56.009 --> 00:01:59.610 to sharing some new year's hope with you, but back to the 33 00:01:59.610 --> 00:02:03.210 present, let's meet Matthew Ian Fleming here on 34 00:02:03.210 --> 00:02:03.710 compass. 35 00:02:07.245 --> 00:02:11.085 Pastor Matthew, you and I share, it seems like 36 00:02:11.085 --> 00:02:13.985 a bit of a, theological 37 00:02:14.845 --> 00:02:18.685 heritage in that. I also spent a lot of time riding 38 00:02:18.685 --> 00:02:22.410 around in church fans, arguing about radio stations and 39 00:02:22.470 --> 00:02:26.310 listening to K LOVE and the like, so just out 40 00:02:26.310 --> 00:02:29.930 of curiosity, bands like newsboys, 41 00:02:30.070 --> 00:02:33.690 delirious, auto adrenaline, 3rd day, those bands 42 00:02:33.750 --> 00:02:37.205 from the early odds. Like, what CCM band from that 43 00:02:37.205 --> 00:02:40.965 generation are you still likely to rock today? Oh, man. So 44 00:02:40.965 --> 00:02:44.725 I just had this conversation with somebody who was like who who came up to 45 00:02:44.725 --> 00:02:47.540 me at church, and they had read a chunk of my book. And he was 46 00:02:47.540 --> 00:02:50.980 like, you made me remember 5 Iron Frenzy. And I listened to that 47 00:02:50.980 --> 00:02:54.820 speech. 5 Iron Frenzy was so much fun. I go I 48 00:02:54.820 --> 00:02:58.500 would go back to Reliant k, actually. That was that was 49 00:02:58.500 --> 00:03:02.185 my jam as a as a youth. And I 50 00:03:02.185 --> 00:03:06.025 still listen to, a decent amount of contemporary Christian music. We do 51 00:03:06.025 --> 00:03:09.785 some at church too. And Yeah. So I listen to newer stuff as well, 52 00:03:09.785 --> 00:03:13.465 like, oh goodness. Now I can't remember the name of the 53 00:03:13.465 --> 00:03:17.159 group. It's a collective. Well, anyway, he can edit that 54 00:03:17.159 --> 00:03:20.439 out. But REN Collective. I don't know. That's the only thing I can do. Not 55 00:03:20.439 --> 00:03:23.640 not that one. I like some of REN Collective stuff too. But, 56 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:27.579 but Reliant k I would say Reliant k is really the, 57 00:03:28.905 --> 00:03:32.185 the, the band that I'll still go back to and listen to every now and 58 00:03:32.185 --> 00:03:35.144 again. Mostly out of nostalgia, I think. It just, 59 00:03:35.864 --> 00:03:39.385 it does something to me. So yeah. That's Yeah. Speaks to a time and place 60 00:03:39.385 --> 00:03:43.099 in your life and Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. 61 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:46.859 Yeah. Well, our conversation is really geared around, 62 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:51.159 thoughts about the end times and revelation. And so this is how I'm going 63 00:03:51.159 --> 00:03:54.459 to execute my, my pro transition here. 64 00:03:55.034 --> 00:03:58.174 Do you have a favorite rapture or revelation song? 65 00:03:59.194 --> 00:04:02.555 Oh, man. I love that. 66 00:04:03.275 --> 00:04:07.114 I think so I mentioned in the book, Peace on 67 00:04:07.114 --> 00:04:10.519 Earth by U2, and it's not exactly like an end time 68 00:04:10.519 --> 00:04:13.959 song, but I just love the feel of 69 00:04:13.959 --> 00:04:17.339 it. I used to perform with a band that toured over, 70 00:04:17.720 --> 00:04:21.320 the state of Minnesota when I was in college, and, and we 71 00:04:21.320 --> 00:04:24.975 sang that during Christmas time. And 72 00:04:24.975 --> 00:04:28.755 and it it just has this haunting hunger for 73 00:04:28.815 --> 00:04:32.655 God's presence that will make things better. And I think that really gets at the 74 00:04:32.655 --> 00:04:36.414 core. So probably not not about the rapture or about the 75 00:04:36.414 --> 00:04:40.150 end times, but I think it really gets us into how I 76 00:04:40.150 --> 00:04:43.930 read Revelation, which is a group of people who are who are hungry for 77 00:04:44.390 --> 00:04:47.770 God to intervene in the moments, of history 78 00:04:48.310 --> 00:04:51.990 and, and that apocalyptic literature can function as a 79 00:04:51.990 --> 00:04:55.835 way to give people hope when they don't 80 00:04:55.835 --> 00:04:59.675 have it. You know, it seems maybe 81 00:04:59.675 --> 00:05:03.435 this is just kind of my rose colored hermeneutic that I bring 82 00:05:03.435 --> 00:05:06.875 to music in general, but it seems like there are is a lot of 83 00:05:06.875 --> 00:05:10.250 music expressing that kind of hope or 84 00:05:10.250 --> 00:05:14.090 intent, you know, or even a recognition like the world isn't as it 85 00:05:14.090 --> 00:05:17.690 should be. We're longing for it to be as it could be. 86 00:05:17.690 --> 00:05:21.335 Right? Yeah. I think, I think there's music, in all sorts 87 00:05:21.335 --> 00:05:25.175 of traditions that do exactly that that, you know, contemporary Christian for sure. There's 88 00:05:25.175 --> 00:05:28.634 some of that. But also, I think pop music, 89 00:05:29.335 --> 00:05:32.715 will often have, a deeply theological 90 00:05:33.095 --> 00:05:36.500 hunger. So one of my ponderings as a worship 91 00:05:36.500 --> 00:05:40.340 planner even is to see how secular and sacred those lines 92 00:05:40.340 --> 00:05:44.180 can be blurred, because often, music 93 00:05:44.180 --> 00:05:47.875 that we hear off of the K LOVE tracks, 94 00:05:49.055 --> 00:05:52.675 really resonates with a deep, longing 95 00:05:52.815 --> 00:05:56.514 for, for a different way, a better way. 96 00:05:58.335 --> 00:06:02.150 Well, I hope we can keep this conversation a little bit light given the the 97 00:06:02.150 --> 00:06:05.910 topic at hand. So we'll just jump 98 00:06:05.910 --> 00:06:09.690 in with this question. What is the Bible? What is the Bible? 99 00:06:09.830 --> 00:06:13.294 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's exactly right. 100 00:06:13.535 --> 00:06:17.215 So the the the book that I wrote, is a book 101 00:06:17.215 --> 00:06:20.975 about Revelation first. Yeah. But, the way that 102 00:06:20.975 --> 00:06:24.630 I read the Bible is distinct than the way that I was taught. I 103 00:06:24.630 --> 00:06:28.390 was taught that the bible was written by God with a really, really, really, really, 104 00:06:28.390 --> 00:06:31.990 really long pencil, and that it goes directly into our 105 00:06:31.990 --> 00:06:35.750 ears and there's nothing in between. And it just 106 00:06:35.750 --> 00:06:39.430 so happens that there's all sorts of things. There's year there's years in 107 00:06:39.430 --> 00:06:42.845 between. There's context. There's cultures. There's translation. 108 00:06:44.185 --> 00:06:47.805 So, so I've grown to really love 109 00:06:48.185 --> 00:06:51.544 the interpretive, methodologies that are 110 00:06:51.544 --> 00:06:55.140 available to us. They've been a gift to me in my own faith life. 111 00:06:55.700 --> 00:06:59.380 So I I introduced my own definition of scripture because I just think 112 00:06:59.380 --> 00:07:02.900 it's helpful for people to know, where I'm coming 113 00:07:02.900 --> 00:07:06.600 from. And it's this, it's that, that the Bible 114 00:07:06.740 --> 00:07:10.544 is our witness to the living voice of God, that it's 115 00:07:10.544 --> 00:07:14.225 a witness to God speaking in our midst. And what I love 116 00:07:14.225 --> 00:07:17.664 about this definition and just kind of settling into it and playing with 117 00:07:17.664 --> 00:07:21.425 it is that the Bible speaks from multiple vantage points, 118 00:07:21.425 --> 00:07:24.724 from different voices, different perspectives, different times, 119 00:07:25.110 --> 00:07:28.949 different cultures. And each of the books of the 120 00:07:28.949 --> 00:07:32.710 Bible and even different sections within each book might speak from a 121 00:07:32.710 --> 00:07:36.150 different, vantage point. And 122 00:07:36.150 --> 00:07:39.610 allowing each of those voices to speak leaves us with a chorus, 123 00:07:40.615 --> 00:07:44.375 rather than just one single, tome. It leaves us with 124 00:07:44.375 --> 00:07:47.975 a chorus or a library, of different voices that might 125 00:07:47.975 --> 00:07:51.655 speak, in different ways and at different times. And 126 00:07:51.655 --> 00:07:55.470 each each can be a gift and a challenge, a wrestling match 127 00:07:55.470 --> 00:07:59.150 or a struggle or, or an invitation. So, 128 00:07:59.790 --> 00:08:03.330 that's, that's a little bit about how I enter the Bible. Yeah. 129 00:08:03.550 --> 00:08:07.389 And that's important to set up because it, we are going to talk quite a 130 00:08:07.389 --> 00:08:11.075 bit about revelation. And revelation is a 131 00:08:11.075 --> 00:08:14.755 book that in the Christian world, we sometimes have a hard 132 00:08:14.755 --> 00:08:18.515 time marking in time. So there's a 133 00:08:18.515 --> 00:08:22.240 school of thought that says, well, revelation speaks to events of the 134 00:08:22.240 --> 00:08:25.920 Roman empire centuries ago. And then there's another school of thought that 135 00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:29.680 says, well, revelation is this prediction of events, which have yet to 136 00:08:29.680 --> 00:08:33.520 occur. You are able to expound a little bit on 137 00:08:33.520 --> 00:08:37.325 revelation being something that is relevant to the here and 138 00:08:37.325 --> 00:08:41.085 now. Can you talk a little bit about why Revelation is so relevant 139 00:08:41.085 --> 00:08:44.845 to our modern context? And I think I think it's because 140 00:08:44.845 --> 00:08:47.965 of a both end of that question. Right? That, 141 00:08:49.965 --> 00:08:52.285 that, yes, Revelation had a really clear 142 00:08:53.880 --> 00:08:57.399 well, probably clearer than it is now message to people in ancient 143 00:08:57.399 --> 00:09:01.019 times. Mhmm. In a time that was full of 144 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:05.100 really significant change, and, 145 00:09:05.560 --> 00:09:08.945 and a huge Roman 146 00:09:08.945 --> 00:09:12.705 occupation, and that presence is is all across Revelation. You can't 147 00:09:12.705 --> 00:09:16.065 ignore it. And so you have to enter that 148 00:09:16.065 --> 00:09:19.820 imagination to actually wonder about how 149 00:09:19.820 --> 00:09:23.660 it might be speaking to today. And so I think it's a 150 00:09:23.660 --> 00:09:27.440 both and. I I think entering that, 151 00:09:28.300 --> 00:09:31.900 that world, John's world, and that imagine the imagination of this 152 00:09:31.900 --> 00:09:34.454 vision actually invites us into, 153 00:09:35.475 --> 00:09:38.915 seeing how it might speak and whisper and shout and 154 00:09:38.915 --> 00:09:42.754 scream, into today's context. And part of 155 00:09:42.754 --> 00:09:46.295 that is, wondering about where we stand. 156 00:09:47.180 --> 00:09:50.720 So the Christian community in ancient times was not 157 00:09:51.020 --> 00:09:54.860 in power. It was, it was a 158 00:09:54.860 --> 00:09:58.220 minority, a significant minority in a, 159 00:09:58.540 --> 00:10:02.065 in a Roman led and ruled context. 160 00:10:04.125 --> 00:10:07.725 And that would change in a few short 100 years to 161 00:10:07.725 --> 00:10:11.345 Christianity becoming the religion of the Roman Empire. 162 00:10:11.485 --> 00:10:14.990 And that change is significant, And we live on the other side of 163 00:10:14.990 --> 00:10:18.750 that. And yet I think we live in a time where 164 00:10:18.750 --> 00:10:22.209 people are asking the questions of, does 165 00:10:22.269 --> 00:10:26.029 Christian faith have the same resonance and relevance today as it did in 166 00:10:26.029 --> 00:10:29.875 previous generations? And lots of people are lamenting the decline 167 00:10:29.875 --> 00:10:33.315 of the church and the declining significance of, 168 00:10:33.635 --> 00:10:37.235 of Christian perspective. So it leads us into 169 00:10:37.235 --> 00:10:41.075 those same sorts of conversations and questions of how do 170 00:10:41.075 --> 00:10:43.850 we interact with this world? I think the other, 171 00:10:44.550 --> 00:10:48.390 interesting contribution that that Revelation can have to today is 172 00:10:48.390 --> 00:10:52.150 the significant crises that we face. We face 173 00:10:52.150 --> 00:10:55.290 crises of of incredible polarization 174 00:10:56.495 --> 00:11:00.335 in in the United States context. We we face crises of 175 00:11:00.335 --> 00:11:03.935 of global climate change and crises of, of 176 00:11:03.935 --> 00:11:07.695 violence and and wars and rumors of wars as it says in Matthew, 177 00:11:07.695 --> 00:11:11.135 but, but there are significant crises facing 178 00:11:11.135 --> 00:11:14.580 us. And the the promise of revelation is that 179 00:11:14.580 --> 00:11:18.100 God is in the midst of those, with 180 00:11:18.100 --> 00:11:21.640 promise and perseverance, and sustaining 181 00:11:21.780 --> 00:11:22.280 hope. 182 00:11:25.380 --> 00:11:29.015 Well, in your book, you mentioned that revelation can be a source both 183 00:11:29.015 --> 00:11:31.515 of, of hope and of humor. 184 00:11:32.775 --> 00:11:35.835 That piques my interest, pastor Matthew, what's so funny about revelation? 185 00:11:37.495 --> 00:11:40.710 I mean, yeah, what is so funny about revelation? 186 00:11:41.970 --> 00:11:45.330 That's great. I mean 187 00:11:45.730 --> 00:11:49.030 so so part of it is that it gets used and misused 188 00:11:49.330 --> 00:11:52.845 so frequently that you have to laugh a little bit. 189 00:11:53.705 --> 00:11:57.485 I mean, it's the punch line to to so many jokes in popular culture, 190 00:11:58.585 --> 00:12:02.105 from the pearly gates. Right? How many how many jokes do we have about Saint 191 00:12:02.105 --> 00:12:05.640 Peter and the pearly gates? The only place that the pearly gates appear are in 192 00:12:05.640 --> 00:12:09.320 the pages of Revelation. And it just so happens that nobody's 193 00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:13.000 guarding them. They're flung wide open. It's a 194 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:16.280 little different than, than the jokes often insinuate. But, 195 00:12:17.000 --> 00:12:20.465 but I think, you know, Revelation was, 196 00:12:21.005 --> 00:12:24.685 was a source of a lot of fear for me growing up. And some of 197 00:12:24.685 --> 00:12:28.445 that was growing up with a lot of rapture theology. And so the way that 198 00:12:28.445 --> 00:12:32.220 I've dealt with it is by finding a way to laugh, and 199 00:12:32.220 --> 00:12:36.060 finding a way, to find humor in these pages. So 200 00:12:36.060 --> 00:12:39.600 I I don't I don't know that Revelation was intended to be a humorous 201 00:12:39.660 --> 00:12:43.340 book, but it is a coping mechanism and it's a way that we can 202 00:12:43.340 --> 00:12:47.175 actually dig in deeper to the message by laughing off the things that maybe 203 00:12:47.175 --> 00:12:50.615 hurt once, and wondering if there's something deeper that it might have to say to 204 00:12:50.615 --> 00:12:54.075 us. You mentioned the rapture, 205 00:12:54.455 --> 00:12:58.295 and it's something that has become so infused with 206 00:12:58.295 --> 00:13:01.900 a lot of Christian theology. Can you tell us 207 00:13:01.900 --> 00:13:05.280 about the rapture for, for those who may be unfamiliar? 208 00:13:05.500 --> 00:13:08.960 And I, I think that there's probably a significant 209 00:13:09.020 --> 00:13:12.480 portion of our audience for this podcast who may not be 210 00:13:12.700 --> 00:13:16.355 familiar with either rapture theology or where the 211 00:13:16.355 --> 00:13:20.135 idea of the rapture came from. Came from. Yeah. Exactly. 212 00:13:20.675 --> 00:13:24.035 In fact, I was just teaching this at our own congregation this week, and I 213 00:13:24.035 --> 00:13:27.795 just asked for a show of hands, like, who who's had experience with the 214 00:13:27.795 --> 00:13:31.140 rapture? And most people knew what it was 215 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:34.720 theoretically. And and I think the the clearest 216 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:38.500 example is the Left Behind series. It was such a national best seller, 217 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:42.500 that it became table conversation 218 00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:47.045 in all sorts of places where it might not have otherwise. 219 00:13:47.045 --> 00:13:50.805 But what I was surprised by, was someone raised their hand and said, I read 220 00:13:50.805 --> 00:13:54.404 Left Behind and I just figured somebody made it up. I didn't think it was 221 00:13:54.485 --> 00:13:57.764 I just thought it was a novel. I had no idea it was connected to 222 00:13:57.764 --> 00:14:01.610 a broader theological tradition. And that was 223 00:14:01.610 --> 00:14:05.370 such the opposite experience to mine. When Left Behind 224 00:14:05.370 --> 00:14:08.990 came out, it was like, this is this is what's gonna happen. 225 00:14:09.450 --> 00:14:13.149 Mhmm. So just to kinda put a, put a pin in what 226 00:14:13.290 --> 00:14:17.105 rapture is, it is this this vision that at some 227 00:14:17.105 --> 00:14:20.705 point, the the the the elect, the 228 00:14:20.705 --> 00:14:24.305 chosen, the true believers, however you might, articulate that, 229 00:14:24.305 --> 00:14:28.050 will will be caught up and brought into heaven. And then there 230 00:14:28.050 --> 00:14:31.490 will be many who are left behind through a great time 231 00:14:31.490 --> 00:14:34.710 of, violence and tribulation and challenge, 232 00:14:35.570 --> 00:14:39.250 until ultimately, Jesus returns to make 233 00:14:39.250 --> 00:14:42.775 everything whole. If if that's kind of the arc of Revelation 234 00:14:42.915 --> 00:14:46.355 Theology and that we're on the lookout, for that 235 00:14:46.355 --> 00:14:50.195 time when those might be caught up. And and to 236 00:14:50.195 --> 00:14:53.939 put a point on it, when I was young, you know the 237 00:14:53.939 --> 00:14:57.399 moment where, like, you're in the grocery store and, 238 00:14:58.339 --> 00:15:01.699 and at 6 or 7 years old, you're looking at the cereal box on the 239 00:15:01.699 --> 00:15:05.139 bottom shelf and thinking, oh, if we get this cereal box, it comes with that 240 00:15:05.139 --> 00:15:08.444 bouncy ball, and I'll get to get the bouncy ball. And then all of a 241 00:15:08.444 --> 00:15:12.204 sudden, you look up and mom is gone. It 242 00:15:12.204 --> 00:15:15.565 just so happens she's in the aisle next door. But 243 00:15:15.565 --> 00:15:19.024 I, in my, understanding, was certain 244 00:15:19.485 --> 00:15:23.100 that she had been raptured and I was left behind. And so 245 00:15:23.100 --> 00:15:26.940 not only the lostness of that moment as a little kid, but that 246 00:15:26.940 --> 00:15:30.300 that's guys in theology and and 247 00:15:30.300 --> 00:15:33.260 spirituality and an expectation that, 248 00:15:34.115 --> 00:15:37.815 that God might whisk away the people that I love and leave me 249 00:15:37.875 --> 00:15:41.574 behind, is a really fearful place to be in. 250 00:15:42.595 --> 00:15:46.194 So to to to go even 251 00:15:46.194 --> 00:15:49.095 further, revelation or rapture theology 252 00:15:50.210 --> 00:15:53.650 is something that emerged so much later in in 253 00:15:53.650 --> 00:15:57.430 Christian tradition. It's not a part of the the long standing 254 00:15:57.490 --> 00:16:01.250 tradition of how Christians have read revelation or or thought 255 00:16:01.250 --> 00:16:03.990 about Jesus' return, until 256 00:16:05.654 --> 00:16:09.255 the 1800 about, and it started in in the 257 00:16:09.255 --> 00:16:13.035 British Isles and then caught fire, among the, 258 00:16:14.135 --> 00:16:17.894 the revivals here in the United States, and then grew 259 00:16:17.894 --> 00:16:21.350 and grew into the 19 seventies and 260 00:16:21.350 --> 00:16:25.110 beyond, among some significant changes and shifts 261 00:16:25.110 --> 00:16:28.870 in in, political structures and all of the changes that were 262 00:16:28.870 --> 00:16:32.090 going on in the 19 sixties counterculture and then, 263 00:16:32.545 --> 00:16:36.225 the 2 1000, y two k and the 2 264 00:16:36.225 --> 00:16:39.985 1, terrorist attacks really kind of 265 00:16:39.985 --> 00:16:43.605 amplified this message of these are the end times and, 266 00:16:43.905 --> 00:16:47.130 and we're in the midst of it. And so it gave a it gave a 267 00:16:47.130 --> 00:16:50.270 way of looking at, and making sense of 268 00:16:50.730 --> 00:16:54.510 the, the strange things in our world, but using, 269 00:16:55.290 --> 00:16:58.730 using the Bible in ways that really don't let the text speak for 270 00:16:58.730 --> 00:17:02.535 themselves. And so rapture theology provides, 271 00:17:03.395 --> 00:17:07.075 an angle to look at these texts, but the word rapture occurs only 272 00:17:07.075 --> 00:17:10.615 once in second Thessalonians. It uses 273 00:17:10.835 --> 00:17:14.455 a a a passage where Jesus gets apocalyptic in Matthew 24, 274 00:17:15.320 --> 00:17:19.000 and then uses revelation to kind of tell a story 275 00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:21.660 that really doesn't hold up when you look at the texts, 276 00:17:22.760 --> 00:17:25.260 as at least as my reading has shown me. 277 00:17:28.119 --> 00:17:31.925 Well, what made you decide to dive so deeply into 278 00:17:32.465 --> 00:17:36.085 Revelation and rapture and end times theology now? 279 00:17:37.105 --> 00:17:40.625 Yeah. I mean, I think one side of that answer is 280 00:17:40.625 --> 00:17:43.205 that Revelation has stuck with me. 281 00:17:46.330 --> 00:17:50.090 I I had always been curious about it as a kid and, again, growing up 282 00:17:50.090 --> 00:17:53.930 with a tradition like this. It was a focal 283 00:17:53.930 --> 00:17:57.770 point of mine. It kind of became this haunting fear in the 284 00:17:57.770 --> 00:18:01.465 back of my mind all the time. And so I've always had a 285 00:18:01.465 --> 00:18:05.225 curiosity about it. And when I taught it to our church, I found that a 286 00:18:05.225 --> 00:18:08.905 lot of people are curious about it. People would show up for a Bible 287 00:18:08.905 --> 00:18:12.345 study on Revelation when they wouldn't show up for any other Bible study. You know, 288 00:18:12.345 --> 00:18:15.100 I have 10 or 15 people at Bible study. Oh, Oh, but we're gonna talk 289 00:18:15.100 --> 00:18:18.159 about revelation. Oh, man. Do they turn 1? No. It's 30. Yeah. 290 00:18:19.100 --> 00:18:22.539 So that was 1. But I think I think it's 291 00:18:22.539 --> 00:18:26.320 really important work to give people the tools 292 00:18:26.965 --> 00:18:30.644 to understand, what this book says. You 293 00:18:30.644 --> 00:18:34.345 know, Martin Luther, who is, you know, a reformer 294 00:18:34.404 --> 00:18:37.945 and and part of the tradition that I serve now as a Lutheran pastor, 295 00:18:38.644 --> 00:18:42.230 was pretty reluctant to give revelation to people. He 296 00:18:42.230 --> 00:18:45.990 said, don't go there. It it it won't do any good. It'll leave 297 00:18:45.990 --> 00:18:49.670 you down lead you down rabbit holes that that aren't gonna help your faith. And 298 00:18:49.670 --> 00:18:53.430 there's some truth to that. John Calvin, one of the 299 00:18:53.430 --> 00:18:57.215 other reformers, wrote a commentary 300 00:18:57.275 --> 00:19:00.735 on every book of scripture except Revelation. 301 00:19:01.275 --> 00:19:04.635 Mhmm. You know, just negating its importance in some 302 00:19:04.635 --> 00:19:08.475 way. And I think that in times like these, 303 00:19:08.475 --> 00:19:12.110 when Revelation gets turned into memes on Facebook, when 304 00:19:12.110 --> 00:19:15.730 revelation gets, to be, a punch line 305 00:19:15.870 --> 00:19:19.630 of a TikTok or or or 306 00:19:19.630 --> 00:19:23.470 meme elsewhere, it's really important that we give 307 00:19:23.470 --> 00:19:27.145 people tools to understand what's actually in the book and to at 308 00:19:27.145 --> 00:19:30.445 least have a framework of understanding the broader impact. 309 00:19:30.905 --> 00:19:34.425 So the word I've been using as I teach it is that I don't I 310 00:19:34.425 --> 00:19:38.105 don't wanna teach you every single verse and get you lost in the in 311 00:19:38.105 --> 00:19:41.730 the in the in the weeds, I want you to step back and see 312 00:19:41.730 --> 00:19:45.570 the overall arc of this book and be able to speak with confidence 313 00:19:45.570 --> 00:19:49.250 about what it means so that when you bump into somebody who might 314 00:19:49.250 --> 00:19:52.450 mislead you, you can say, no, I I know a bit about that book and 315 00:19:52.450 --> 00:19:56.265 I and I'm comfortable with where I am. It it can be a 316 00:19:56.265 --> 00:19:59.625 really misleading, book in the wrong 317 00:19:59.625 --> 00:20:03.385 hands. It can be used all of these strange images can be used 318 00:20:03.385 --> 00:20:06.284 to lead people down some really dangerous corners. 319 00:20:07.145 --> 00:20:10.900 And I really wanna equip people to know what's in it so 320 00:20:10.900 --> 00:20:12.440 that they might not be misled. 321 00:20:17.380 --> 00:20:20.840 Mhmm. In recognizing that fear 322 00:20:20.900 --> 00:20:24.280 of revelation and how people might 323 00:20:24.865 --> 00:20:28.625 interpret it on their own, you know, somebody is going to 324 00:20:28.625 --> 00:20:31.745 hear this podcast and they're going to dive in and they're going to be like, 325 00:20:31.745 --> 00:20:35.265 okay, so I'm not familiar with the book. I'm going to dive in and within 326 00:20:35.265 --> 00:20:39.025 a couple of chapters be like, I have no idea what is happening 327 00:20:39.025 --> 00:20:42.150 here. Is there kind of a overarching 328 00:20:42.690 --> 00:20:46.370 hermeneutic or lens that, you can supply for 329 00:20:46.370 --> 00:20:50.210 us with which we might, bring 330 00:20:50.210 --> 00:20:53.910 to our reading that Yeah. Might lend to some understanding, especially 331 00:20:53.970 --> 00:20:56.885 towards our modern day context? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 332 00:20:58.065 --> 00:21:01.905 Yeah. I I I think so. The the one that I 333 00:21:01.905 --> 00:21:05.265 introduce in the book is Psalm 139, which 334 00:21:05.265 --> 00:21:08.910 is we have these anchors in our tradition. These kinda 335 00:21:08.990 --> 00:21:12.450 core pieces, at least in my tradition, it was memorizing scripture, 336 00:21:12.750 --> 00:21:16.190 that are just a key component of of who we are. And John 337 00:21:16.190 --> 00:21:19.950 316, of course, is one of the the favorites. Another one that 338 00:21:19.950 --> 00:21:23.710 I just taught recently is Psalm 46, God is our refuge and strength, a very 339 00:21:23.710 --> 00:21:27.305 present help in trouble. And, 340 00:21:27.765 --> 00:21:31.285 and and, you know, Romans 8, that there's nothing that can separate us from the 341 00:21:31.285 --> 00:21:34.885 love of God in Christ Jesus. I mean, there are these 342 00:21:34.885 --> 00:21:38.185 anchors. The anchor that I introduced at the beginning of 343 00:21:39.045 --> 00:21:42.820 this book is Psalm 139. Where can I go from 344 00:21:42.820 --> 00:21:46.500 your presence? If I rise on the wings of the morning or 345 00:21:46.500 --> 00:21:50.180 settle at the farthest side of the dawn, if I make my bed in the 346 00:21:50.180 --> 00:21:53.880 heavens or or at the depths of the pit, there you are 347 00:21:54.235 --> 00:21:57.534 holding me in the palm of your hand, to summarize anyway. 348 00:21:58.394 --> 00:22:02.014 And I think that that, as a hermeneutic, really helps 349 00:22:02.315 --> 00:22:04.495 people tread through revelation. 350 00:22:06.075 --> 00:22:09.695 That, that God is there 351 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:13.679 in the midst of unbelievable violence, in the midst 352 00:22:13.679 --> 00:22:17.520 of of really scary things. The other thing that I'll 353 00:22:17.520 --> 00:22:21.140 add is that, actually reading the end of Revelation 354 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:25.299 can provide a way to see where all of this is going. 355 00:22:26.285 --> 00:22:29.585 There are 3 images, of what God 356 00:22:29.965 --> 00:22:33.565 hopes for for creation at the end of Revelation, and it's a new 357 00:22:33.565 --> 00:22:37.245 heaven and a new earth. Not as in wiping away and building something 358 00:22:37.245 --> 00:22:40.950 new, but actually tending this this chaos 359 00:22:41.010 --> 00:22:44.690 and turning it into something beautiful. And then the 360 00:22:44.690 --> 00:22:48.530 second, a new a new city, a new Jerusalem. And it's 361 00:22:48.530 --> 00:22:52.065 this massive city that's bigger than 362 00:22:52.065 --> 00:22:55.745 any city today or even in ancient times, big 363 00:22:55.745 --> 00:22:58.485 enough for everybody to have a room. 364 00:22:59.425 --> 00:23:03.265 And then finally of this new garden of of the tree of life, 365 00:23:03.265 --> 00:23:07.070 a new Eden, where God provides for the healing of the 366 00:23:07.070 --> 00:23:10.830 nations. And if you read that section first, I 367 00:23:10.830 --> 00:23:14.669 actually think it'll give you the conviction to to read through the whole book and 368 00:23:14.669 --> 00:23:18.370 know that that's where that's that's the promise. 369 00:23:18.865 --> 00:23:22.385 That's the promise of God to sustain, and to be 370 00:23:22.385 --> 00:23:24.485 present in the most trying times. 371 00:23:26.385 --> 00:23:30.005 So what do we do with the rest of it then? Are these writings 372 00:23:30.144 --> 00:23:33.720 about false prophets and stinging locusts? Are 373 00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:37.179 these predictions of things which are to come or 374 00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:41.419 observances of realities that are, or what are you making of that? 375 00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:45.654 Yeah. I mean, the the tool that I introduce is, like, it takes 376 00:23:45.654 --> 00:23:49.255 some reframing and and rearranging of some mental 377 00:23:49.255 --> 00:23:53.014 furniture if you've been taught that revelation is really a blueprint for 378 00:23:53.014 --> 00:23:56.375 the end of the world. I don't read 379 00:23:56.375 --> 00:23:59.920 revelation that way anymore. I don't read it as a prediction 380 00:24:00.220 --> 00:24:03.820 that we need to somehow unlock and and compare all of these 381 00:24:03.820 --> 00:24:07.420 strange numbers and notes. Some of those numbers are really 382 00:24:07.420 --> 00:24:11.260 easy to interpret. The number 7, for example, which 383 00:24:11.260 --> 00:24:14.935 means God's wholeness and complete, hemming 384 00:24:14.935 --> 00:24:18.535 in of everything that is. 7 days to 385 00:24:18.535 --> 00:24:22.135 creation and, and, and all of the 386 00:24:22.135 --> 00:24:25.115 like. But some of the numbers are 387 00:24:25.950 --> 00:24:29.650 confusing, and they remain confusing. And scholars conjecture 388 00:24:29.870 --> 00:24:33.409 and guess, but they're conjectures and guesses. 389 00:24:34.750 --> 00:24:38.110 So, so what I do with all of the stuff in the 390 00:24:38.110 --> 00:24:41.674 middle is really connect it back to the context in which it 391 00:24:41.674 --> 00:24:45.434 came, which is speaking about the unbelievable violence of 392 00:24:45.434 --> 00:24:48.794 the Roman Empire and wondering about God's 393 00:24:48.794 --> 00:24:52.575 presence in the midst of unbelievable violence of empires 394 00:24:52.635 --> 00:24:56.450 of today. And again, then that begs the question of which 395 00:24:56.450 --> 00:25:00.210 side of the coin are we on? Revelation draws a line 396 00:25:00.210 --> 00:25:03.429 that Christians are to be, subversion 397 00:25:03.970 --> 00:25:07.809 and challenge to that empirical might and stand apart 398 00:25:07.809 --> 00:25:11.255 from it, and that God tends Christians in the midst of that. 399 00:25:11.635 --> 00:25:15.174 But at times in our history, Christians have been 400 00:25:15.235 --> 00:25:19.075 empire. And are we standing in that moment or are 401 00:25:19.075 --> 00:25:22.434 we standing amidst those who are being trampled by its 402 00:25:22.434 --> 00:25:22.934 feet? 403 00:25:26.890 --> 00:25:28.190 How has this 404 00:25:32.169 --> 00:25:35.549 new or evolved understanding of revelation 405 00:25:36.570 --> 00:25:40.035 impacted how you live out your your faith 406 00:25:40.835 --> 00:25:44.675 in today's context? Yeah. 407 00:25:44.675 --> 00:25:46.055 Yeah. That's a great question. 408 00:25:50.195 --> 00:25:53.890 Well, hold on. Maybe we pause here, and you 409 00:25:53.890 --> 00:25:56.770 can reaffirm the question. But how honest do you want me to be, Ryan? I 410 00:25:56.770 --> 00:26:00.530 mean, we're Yeah. So selective. I don't wanna get you in places 411 00:26:00.530 --> 00:26:01.910 you don't wanna go. But, 412 00:26:06.045 --> 00:26:08.785 Yeah. I mean, what I might say is 413 00:26:10.445 --> 00:26:13.905 that we are called in this moment 414 00:26:16.925 --> 00:26:20.445 to speak on behalf of those who are on the 415 00:26:20.445 --> 00:26:24.160 margins and to recognize if we are if 416 00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:27.840 we have power and where we have power and to use that power for the 417 00:26:27.840 --> 00:26:31.380 sake of our neighbors. Something like that. Does that feel fair enough? 418 00:26:31.520 --> 00:26:35.360 Yeah. Maybe even mentioning the election context, whichever side of 419 00:26:35.360 --> 00:26:39.095 the coin you might be on. I don't know. Yeah. No. You can go there. 420 00:26:39.095 --> 00:26:42.455 Alright. That sounds good. Maybe just set the question one more 421 00:26:42.455 --> 00:26:43.835 time. Yes. 422 00:26:55.130 --> 00:26:58.030 Sorry. Random order. 423 00:27:00.730 --> 00:27:04.184 All right, here we go. So as 424 00:27:04.184 --> 00:27:07.404 you've come to this new understanding 425 00:27:08.184 --> 00:27:11.865 or adopted this new understanding of revelation, how has 426 00:27:11.865 --> 00:27:15.304 that impacted the way that you live out your 427 00:27:15.304 --> 00:27:18.985 faith in our modern context or in your community around 428 00:27:18.985 --> 00:27:22.790 you? I think that's really important 429 00:27:22.850 --> 00:27:26.610 question for us to ask today. I mean, you and I are recording 430 00:27:26.610 --> 00:27:29.750 this a few days after the 2024 election. 431 00:27:30.130 --> 00:27:33.270 Mhmm. And, we've been through a season 432 00:27:34.770 --> 00:27:38.605 of campaigning that has become, vile 433 00:27:38.665 --> 00:27:42.105 in a lot of ways. And we're living 434 00:27:42.105 --> 00:27:45.705 in the impending fear of what, will 435 00:27:45.705 --> 00:27:49.385 come. At least I should say I'm living in an impending fear of 436 00:27:49.385 --> 00:27:53.179 what will come. And I sit in a place that has 437 00:27:53.179 --> 00:27:56.940 significant privilege. I sit in a place that 438 00:27:56.940 --> 00:28:00.620 I'm not fearful of being rounded up and 439 00:28:00.620 --> 00:28:04.304 sent out of this country. But I 440 00:28:04.304 --> 00:28:08.145 think the invitation is to think about the people who 441 00:28:08.145 --> 00:28:11.905 are impacted by that. Revelation speaks to a 442 00:28:11.905 --> 00:28:14.885 people who are in the midst of that 443 00:28:18.490 --> 00:28:22.010 deeply fearful moment, and it gives them 444 00:28:22.010 --> 00:28:25.309 hope and shows them what happens to empires, 445 00:28:26.650 --> 00:28:30.090 but it also gives an indictment and a challenge to 446 00:28:30.090 --> 00:28:33.390 those who might stand on the side of empire. 447 00:28:34.045 --> 00:28:37.425 And I think for Christians today, it's really that question. 448 00:28:38.205 --> 00:28:42.045 Which side are we on and might we side with those 449 00:28:42.045 --> 00:28:45.485 who are marginalized and those who are under the wheels of 450 00:28:45.485 --> 00:28:49.230 injustice? And might we, like Dietrich Bonhoeffer said, drive 451 00:28:49.230 --> 00:28:52.669 a spoke into the wheel itself instead of just 452 00:28:52.669 --> 00:28:54.929 bandaging those who are wounded by it. 453 00:29:00.285 --> 00:29:03.345 So how does the reading of this book 454 00:29:04.205 --> 00:29:08.045 and by by the book, I mean, revelation supply 455 00:29:08.045 --> 00:29:11.804 you with hope for the context 456 00:29:11.804 --> 00:29:15.260 in which we're in, where, you know, just recognizing the reality 457 00:29:15.260 --> 00:29:19.020 that we are polarized. People are a little uneasy 458 00:29:19.020 --> 00:29:22.460 around each other. A significant portion of our 459 00:29:22.460 --> 00:29:25.840 population is fearful of what is to come. 460 00:29:26.195 --> 00:29:28.935 How how are we reading hope out of that? Yeah. 461 00:29:30.435 --> 00:29:34.135 Yeah. There is this flow in Revelation. 462 00:29:35.075 --> 00:29:38.910 It actually functions in cycles. So 463 00:29:38.910 --> 00:29:42.450 each time it dives into this kind of painful 464 00:29:42.670 --> 00:29:46.350 vision of, of violence and terror and 465 00:29:46.350 --> 00:29:49.970 fear, it then moves back up into 466 00:29:50.825 --> 00:29:54.525 a chorus of music and song and worship. 467 00:29:56.825 --> 00:30:00.525 I think that there is something beautiful about that, 468 00:30:01.945 --> 00:30:05.770 that there are very few places where we bump elbows 469 00:30:05.770 --> 00:30:09.610 with people who think differently. There are very few places 470 00:30:09.610 --> 00:30:13.210 in our world where we can sit next to one 471 00:30:13.210 --> 00:30:16.510 another and share a cup of coffee or a meal 472 00:30:16.730 --> 00:30:19.924 or a song or a prayer 473 00:30:20.465 --> 00:30:24.304 or hearing a sermon. And I know many of 474 00:30:24.304 --> 00:30:28.065 our churches are not those places anymore. Some 475 00:30:28.065 --> 00:30:31.745 of them are. I serve a church that is one of those 476 00:30:31.745 --> 00:30:35.230 places where people who voted for different candidates 477 00:30:35.370 --> 00:30:37.549 might sing together on Sunday morning. 478 00:30:39.210 --> 00:30:42.110 And that gives me an incredible amount of hope. 479 00:30:43.370 --> 00:30:46.510 And I think that worship is a piece that rewires 480 00:30:46.730 --> 00:30:49.925 us. And so I think the invitation of revelation 481 00:30:50.465 --> 00:30:54.145 is to take worship seriously. It's to 482 00:30:54.145 --> 00:30:57.905 take worship so seriously that we expect that there 483 00:30:57.905 --> 00:31:01.610 will be transformation that happens on Sunday mornings or Wednesday 484 00:31:01.610 --> 00:31:05.050 nights or Sunday evenings. To take it so 485 00:31:05.050 --> 00:31:08.570 seriously that we expect that the spirit will 486 00:31:08.570 --> 00:31:12.330 move amongst us. That we expect that there will be 487 00:31:12.330 --> 00:31:15.684 transformation out of our congregations and into the 488 00:31:15.684 --> 00:31:19.445 community and into the political sphere, but that that's where it 489 00:31:19.445 --> 00:31:23.145 happens. Revelation is a songbook for our church. 490 00:31:23.845 --> 00:31:27.525 Even if you've never read a page of it, you've sung a hymn that draws 491 00:31:27.525 --> 00:31:31.100 from Revelation, and it continues to be the 492 00:31:31.100 --> 00:31:34.779 imagination of our worship spaces. So 493 00:31:34.779 --> 00:31:38.620 how might we take worship so seriously that it might 494 00:31:38.620 --> 00:31:40.400 actually transform our communities? 495 00:31:43.419 --> 00:31:46.835 Now I wanna note that revelation ends with the 496 00:31:46.835 --> 00:31:50.595 image of it ends with a lot of images, but 497 00:31:50.595 --> 00:31:54.294 amongst that is, is the tree, right? And reminiscent 498 00:31:54.514 --> 00:31:58.115 of, of the trees in the beginning, that we see in 499 00:31:58.115 --> 00:32:01.529 Genesis. And here in this podcast, we began in talking about 500 00:32:01.529 --> 00:32:04.110 song we're ending in talking about song. So, 501 00:32:06.049 --> 00:32:09.610 and it maybe with that, I don't know, 502 00:32:09.610 --> 00:32:12.510 there's this sick, there's this cyclical 503 00:32:13.975 --> 00:32:17.515 underpinning that suggests that just as things 504 00:32:17.575 --> 00:32:21.174 were, set out with purpose in 505 00:32:21.174 --> 00:32:24.534 righteousness and justice in the beginning. So to it, it may 506 00:32:24.534 --> 00:32:28.360 be in the end, and which 507 00:32:28.360 --> 00:32:31.799 isn't actually the end. And can you speak to us a little bit? Because we 508 00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:35.480 keep talking about revelation as being like the closing off 509 00:32:35.480 --> 00:32:39.240 point or, you know, even well, the 510 00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:42.860 name of your book is the end is the beginning. So how is 511 00:32:43.294 --> 00:32:46.575 this what we mark as the end so often the end times, how is it 512 00:32:46.575 --> 00:32:50.355 the beginning? And again, this is rearranging 513 00:32:50.495 --> 00:32:54.095 the furniture in our brains a bit. But if you start to put aside that 514 00:32:54.095 --> 00:32:57.780 notion that it's a blueprint for the end of the world, it 515 00:32:57.780 --> 00:33:01.540 actually gives, some real promise to 516 00:33:01.540 --> 00:33:05.220 God sustaining and being present in times 517 00:33:05.220 --> 00:33:08.660 of deep uncertainty and violence and war and famine 518 00:33:08.660 --> 00:33:12.125 and, and oppression. And also the 519 00:33:12.125 --> 00:33:15.645 promise that God is tilling the soil. That God is 520 00:33:15.645 --> 00:33:19.424 tending the garden. That God's, promises 521 00:33:19.485 --> 00:33:23.164 for fruit that will fall from this this tree of life that 522 00:33:23.164 --> 00:33:26.640 will feed everyone. And leaves for the healing of the 523 00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:30.020 nations. So, so revelation, 524 00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:34.799 again, stepping back and looking at the big picture the big 525 00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:38.265 picture can actually invite us to 526 00:33:38.265 --> 00:33:41.945 lean more deeply into the communities, to to wonder 527 00:33:41.945 --> 00:33:45.545 more profoundly about our impact, as fellow 528 00:33:45.545 --> 00:33:49.005 humans and neighbors, to wonder how the gospel then 529 00:33:49.145 --> 00:33:52.890 propels us into, into work alongside of the 530 00:33:52.890 --> 00:33:56.730 marginalized. And again, reading this book at the end of 531 00:33:56.730 --> 00:34:00.090 scripture might actually begin a new 532 00:34:00.090 --> 00:34:03.690 relationship with, our faith, with with the 533 00:34:03.690 --> 00:34:07.135 Bible, with this living voice of God that's speaking 534 00:34:07.135 --> 00:34:10.574 afresh, and anew, in our in our 535 00:34:10.574 --> 00:34:14.415 communities and in our world. So I hope that if you've read 536 00:34:14.415 --> 00:34:18.159 Revelation, you've gotten all sorts of tools of going back and 537 00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:21.860 reading other corners of scripture. That maybe it might ignite in people, 538 00:34:23.120 --> 00:34:26.880 a way of looking at this ancient book that speaks anew in our own 539 00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:30.400 lives. That calls us to witness and to acts of of 540 00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:34.244 justice and kindness. And to wonder, you know, what does 541 00:34:34.244 --> 00:34:38.025 the Lord require of me? But to do justice, and love kindness, 542 00:34:38.405 --> 00:34:39.945 and walk humbly with God. 543 00:34:42.324 --> 00:34:45.900 Well put. Well, we're drawing 544 00:34:45.900 --> 00:34:49.579 to the end of our podcast time together. I 545 00:34:49.579 --> 00:34:52.319 hope it's a a new beginning, 546 00:34:53.260 --> 00:34:57.020 a revelation for somebody to, to begin 547 00:34:57.020 --> 00:35:00.455 to explore more for, people who maybe wanna 548 00:35:00.455 --> 00:35:04.215 follow-up on what you're doing or what you're up to? Where is a 549 00:35:04.215 --> 00:35:07.655 convenient spot for them to do so? Yeah. The 550 00:35:07.655 --> 00:35:10.395 easiest, place is to, to go to churchanew.org. 551 00:35:11.900 --> 00:35:15.520 I'm the director of a movement of congregations and 552 00:35:15.740 --> 00:35:18.880 and and leaders. And so there's lots of great 553 00:35:19.100 --> 00:35:22.880 resources on that website, and you can find more information 554 00:35:22.940 --> 00:35:26.545 there. My book is available wherever books are found. The 555 00:35:26.545 --> 00:35:30.384 title, The End is the Beginning, Revelation, Hope, and the Love that Lit 556 00:35:30.384 --> 00:35:33.204 the Stars. And I hope that it's helpful. 557 00:35:33.904 --> 00:35:36.964 Request it at your local library. Buy it from your local bookseller. 558 00:35:37.650 --> 00:35:41.329 Or all of the online retailers have it as well. Cool. 559 00:35:41.329 --> 00:35:45.089 Fantastic. Well, Matthew, thank you so much for joining us. Thank 560 00:35:45.089 --> 00:35:48.770 you, Ryan. I really appreciate the time. Thanks 561 00:35:48.770 --> 00:35:52.224 for joining us. Did this episode insight a 562 00:35:52.224 --> 00:35:55.744 longing for more theological exploration or cultural 563 00:35:55.744 --> 00:35:59.585 observances? Of course it did. And you're gonna wanna check out another episode 564 00:35:59.585 --> 00:36:03.265 of Compass. If you were into this one, then you've got to check out 565 00:36:03.265 --> 00:36:06.980 episode number 135 with Derek Kubelis. It's about hell 566 00:36:06.980 --> 00:36:10.740 and purgatory and wicked things like that. Actually, it's really mostly about God's 567 00:36:10.740 --> 00:36:14.500 love, but we dove deep into a theology of hell in 568 00:36:14.500 --> 00:36:17.940 that episode. And I feel like episode 129 with Lenny 569 00:36:17.940 --> 00:36:21.775 Duncan would be a good companion to this particular episode too. And 570 00:36:21.775 --> 00:36:24.835 that episode, we talked about hip hop from a spiritual perspective, 571 00:36:25.535 --> 00:36:29.135 but a number of the themes shared some resonance with what we 572 00:36:29.135 --> 00:36:32.780 talked about in this episode. While you're listening, leave a 573 00:36:32.780 --> 00:36:36.300 rating and or review. The Compass podcast is brought to you by 574 00:36:36.300 --> 00:36:40.060 United Methodist Communications. You can check out all of 575 00:36:40.060 --> 00:36:43.360 our episodes, get show notes and relevant links at umc.org 576 00:36:43.925 --> 00:36:47.685 /compass. And that is all for this week. We're taking 577 00:36:47.685 --> 00:36:51.365 a bit of time off since our next episode will be due to drop 578 00:36:51.365 --> 00:36:55.205 on Christmas day, which I gotta admit is not a great day to be releasing 579 00:36:55.205 --> 00:36:59.000 episodes. So we'll be back a fresh and new 580 00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:01.980 with something new on January 8, 2025. 581 00:37:02.839 --> 00:37:04.300 Peace to you until then.