Hi, this is Compass Finding Spirituality in the Everyday. My name
is Ryan Dunn. This is an episode about
transformation. We're going to hear Ben Gosdin's story about
addiction, recovery, and grace. What's
interesting is that as we hear Ben share his story, we're invited to take note
of the ways in which our own lives have fallen out of
alignment with our values. We also will learn about how the
principles of recovery impact our faith faith and our
daily habits. Ben Gosdin is a pastor and
author of Grace Rediscovered, a book that narrates his personal journey
towards recovery and spiritual alignment. With over fifteen years
of pastoral experience, Ben shares insights on
overcoming addiction, the power of prayer in recovery,
and the importance of humility and acceptance in our
faith journeys. If stories like this are meaningful for you,
we invite you to share your appreciation by clicking the subscribe
button on your podcast listening platform. You can also leave a
rating and review on your podcast platform that helps new
people discover the meaningful stories that we share through
Compass. Alright. Let's get into an inspiring
discussion that highlights the presence of grace in our everyday
lives with Ben Gosdin here on Compass.
Ben, it sounds like we watched a lot of the same shows growing up. I
noticed that you also have a fondness for professional wrestling. Is that
true? Does that still last for today, or did you outgrow that? You know,
it's funny. I am probably one of those, like, get off my lawn, guys. I
don't I don't follow enough now. Yeah. But one of the beautiful
things that you're probably aware of this is Paul, like, it seems like all the
pro wrestlers from when we were kids, obviously, they're too old to wrestle. They've all
got podcasts now. They do. And it is
like reliving my childhood. Man, I Bruce Pritchard's podcast
Yeah. He's been in the WWE guys forever. I love Bruce
Pritchard and just all the inside stories about all the stuff that
we grew up watching. So I'm probably more nostalgic about pro
wrestling. Yeah. But I I do appreciate it. I really do.
Yeah. Same boat. I got into that stuff in the the biographies
on a and e. Did you see those? So I I found
myself watching those kind of thinking, like, you know what? I think
I like professional wrestling. Don't tell anybody. Well, and I'll tell you
what's fun. Did you follow it as a kid? I did. Uh-huh.
Okay. So do you subscribe to Peacock? Yes.
So you know they got all our vibes. Yeah. All the stuff. I mean,
you can go back and watch the pay per view. Oh, man. It it it
is so much fun. It's so much fun. Amazing. Our our listeners are
like, what are these guys talking about? Oh, man. We're, well,
we're looking at our past, so we're talking about the presence of grace throughout our
lives. And one of the ways that you kind of address
your past, Ben, is looking at some of the things that you grabbed
onto growing up and what was sometimes a chaotic
childhood. And, you noted that oftentimes, well, you looked for
father figures and professional wrestlers, and sometimes you look for family
connections through, like, the TGIF shows that came on ABC on
Friday nights. Did you have a particular favorite show or TV family
or one that you'd like to find yourself in the midst of right now? You
know, it's it's funny. I remember when I was a kid, I loved
Family Matters. Mhmm. I I there was something about
the Winslow family that was a lot of fun, but, of course, I love full
house. Oh, yeah. Step by step was fun. You know,
all all the TGIF. I remember TGIF being a wonderful
thing because my parents you know, this was also the day and age
when you probably had only one TV in the house. Mhmm. My
parents had shows that they liked, and it was like, don't
talk while our shows are on. TGIF was designed, I
know, for families, but it was really something that felt inclusive
of kids. And it's funny, you know,
looking back, there's a lot of things that are formative about those
sitcoms that we don't realize, and it and it comes out in
deep ways and sort of the the unfulfilled expectations of
our childhoods. Right. It's like almost each one had some
kind of lesson that they were trying to teach throughout it. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
And and and and and you think that life can be solved, the hard
moments with, like, a sit down conversation at the end of an episode
and piano music playing in the background and everything's fine and
but you realize it's it's not. You know, you you
age and you're like, you know, life's a lot more messy than a sitcom. But
for what they were, they're they're wonderful escapes. Yeah.
Well, your book is Grace Rediscovered, and it's, about a a
journey in recovery. I think a lot of us tend to,
when it comes to the the heavy things
or things like addiction, we gloss over it. And,
certainly, that's part of your story in terms of kinda being in
denial. Was there, like, a moment of realization for you, a kind
of moment when you realized that maybe you did have
an addiction? You know, I was told growing up
that addiction was in my family. And so I knew and and
my father my father was an alcoholic that
my mother forbid from drinking. Okay. And as a friend in recovery has told me,
god, there's nothing more miserable than an alcoholic who's not allowed to drink. I mean,
it's just the worst. And and so I knew that genetically it was there,
but, you know, it's almost hard to describe. So that was one
element. Then another element was I was never comfortable in my own skin
growing up. I always wanted to fit in. I was so afraid of rejection.
And I I remember the very first night in college when
I when I had alcohol and it the warmth
that washed over me and all of a sudden the ease
that I felt, it was magic. I mean, it was just like this is what
I've been looking for. I mean, I ebbed and flowed and then, of
course, as I came into a career and had more money and
able to buy more alcohol and it just a nightly
unwinding routine slowly became something that I didn't even
realize it was out of control until it was out of control. And it was
really during the COVID pandemic that I began
to really you know, as I told somebody recently, I began to
like, the morning after, and I felt like I'd been hit by a car. It
was just it was awful. But, you know, it was the pandemic and, you know,
we were all kinda just, you know, taking things very casual because we
couldn't go anywhere. Yeah. And I found myself the next morning
feeling both physically terrible and then this deep sense of shame.
And I knew that I would tell myself, like, oh, that was too much last
night. I'm I'm not gonna do that again. And then unconsciously, I
would that same night be doing it all over again. And I began
to to Google how many drinks makes you an alcoholic.
And looking back, I realized if you have to Google whether or not
you're you probably are alcoholic. So
I was rationalizing my my intake and and that's when
I really began to say something's probably not right. And it was
a combination of the pandemic. I was getting my doctor of ministry.
I was a functioning pastor doing what pastors were doing of just trying to
do all the virtual. And and I was increasingly exhausted
and not, like, just tired. Like like, my soul was weary.
So I'm there was something that was coalescing in there, But it really began
with that, you know, one of these dry Jan. 0 things, you know, that that's
in in vogue. And I just began to feel a
shift all around that I thought there's something going on
here. There's a longer story that it took me about three months, and I
realized there's something deeper here than just I need to break a habit.
Yeah. But all along, you were still
functional. Right? It's not like, you were losing jobs over this or
anything like that. I was functional on the outside.
I was increasingly miserable on the inside.
And such perfectionism is a
paralyzing thing in me. Mhmm. I wanna be all the things to all
the people all the time. And it works until it doesn't. And alcohol
became the thing that that I escaped with, the thing
that I self medicated. It said, you know, this tension would rise every
day, and it was the thing that would take the edge off.
So yeah. I mean, yes, on the one hand, but but I also I also
think I probably was gonna be one of those alcoholics that it may
not have been the loss of a job, but it may have been a diagnosis.
It may have been a doctor saying, hey. There's something wrong. Okay.
And and it's from years. I mean, because I was over ten years of
secretly daily heavy drinking. What were your first
steps towards recovery? My first steps were what we
call white knuckling, which is like you just grit
and bear every night because my body and and and
everything was like clockwork. At 08:30 at night, I would sit down with a cocktail
and, you know, I would I would try to avoid it and I would walk
the dog and I would, you know, all these and I would be increasingly anxious.
I became an early bird, which I am to this day because I just decided
I'm gonna go to bed. If I if I go to sleep, then then I
don't have to worry with it. So I started going to bed about 09:00
and and now wake up around four in the morning and realize
I love being a morning person. But all that was to avoid it. It
was about three months in that I had an opportunity
with a group that I could have a drink, and I began to do what
we call in recovery, play the tape where I just kinda played. Well, I could
have one. Mhmm. And then I played it out where I knew what would
happen, what would happen. That's when I called a friend who I know is in
recovery, and I said, I think I've got a problem. Normal people don't
think about alcohol the way that I think about it. And, Ryan,
it even get got into, you know, it is weird to say for people who
are nonalcoholics, the emotional and mental energy I would
spend every day taking stock. How much is in the house? Do I need to
go to the liquor store? When I travel, where's the nearest liquor store? How can
I go you know, all these things that normal people just don't spend that
kind of time thinking about, I
quietly obsessed over? Was that the first point
at which you reached out to somebody else about this? Were you just
carrying it all yourself up to that point? Yeah. Yeah. It
was. Even hiding my my worries from my wife, because
I was never a mean drunk. I was actually a fun one. You know, it
would loosen me up. I'd get funnier. I was beginning to have memory
lapses, which is one of the first signs of what what doctors call, like, wet
brain. We would have entire conversations that I wouldn't remember the next
morning. And and so I knew I knew something was going on.
But, yeah, reaching out to to a friend who's actually a church member. And
I'm blessed, by the way, that I have numerous church members who are very
publicly in recovery. We have recovery ministries that that happen
out of here. And so I've been a supporter of the recovery
world for years. I had no idea until then
that I needed to be a member of it. Are you able to look at
some of the process of recovery and really point out how it
opens us up to a deeper relationship to to
God? Why are the principles of recovery so
important in our faith walk? Like, I think about this even for the person who's
listening, who's maybe saying, well, you know, I don't
identify an addiction that I need to that I need recovery from. Why
would I be that interested in the principles of recovery? Yeah.
The the story I tell in the book is one of my favorite ones a
friend told that a guy who'd been in recovery for a long time said to
him at a meeting once, he said, you know the difference between God
and you? And he goes, no? What? And he goes,
god doesn't go around pretending to be you. Right.
And the truth is, now three years later, I can
see my addiction and my disease as a gift
because it opened me up to the reality that god is god
and I am not. And more than I care to
even describe, I try to play God in my life. Whether
it's obsessing about the future, trying to control other people's
lives, worrying about things that are beyond my control,
all these things that that whether you have a disease, the disease of addiction or
not, we all try to play God in some form or fashion or
and or we self medicate. You know, when when we can't
be God and we're all anxious about it, well, what do we do? We go
eat. We we we scroll. We doom scroll on social media.
We, we work. You know, we become workaholics. We
try to fill a God sized hole in our soul somehow or
another. For me, alcohol worked until it couldn't work
anymore. But alcohol was the outward expression of
an inward disease that I was also a workaholic. That I
was also my ego was bigger than it should have been. I needed
right sizing. I was a control freak. I had to let go of some
things to just accept. I can't control everything.
Yeah. Well, tell me about that a little bit because with
drinking, you can quit drinking, but you can't stop working
then. So how does it how does it work to be a workaholic
in recovery while still working? Yeah.
You just like with alcohol and
where every day, I pray for a few I
pray for numerous things there. By the way, let me begin by saying, I'm a
pastor and I've been one for almost fifteen years and a Christian most of my
life. I've never prayed the way that I've prayed in recovery.
It opened my spiritual life in a way that I've experienced God's
salvation in in daily
mysterious, just wonderful ways.
How did your how did your prayers change?
From prayers of petition, you know, God, give me this,
give me that, help this, help that, to
prayers like, God, help me accept life as it comes today.
Help me remember the things that I cannot control and and help
me to put my whole I mean, I I even you can steal baptismal language,
by the way. Help me to put my whole trust in your grace. We
say that in our baptismal liturgy. The first three steps of the 12
steps say that that that, you know, essentially you can
boil them down to can't, God can,
I think I'll let God? That's steps one, two, and three. And if that
becomes your prayer every day to to just rest in the
mystery that I can't do this alone, God, but you
can come alongside me. And I think I'm gonna let go of some
stuff and let you do that. The burden
that sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly,
but in God's timing begins to just unload from you. And
by the way, how can you be able get over the workaholism too?
You reorder your life. You also realize
that a lot of the quote effort I'm putting in is a way that I'm
trying to do things that are beyond my control. I'm trying to be the greatest
at whatever it is. I'm trying for my my DS to think I'm the best
pastor in the district. I want the bishop to notice me. I want all these
things and then you just say, you know what? Those things don't matter, but what
does matter? I do a good job, I'm faithful to my work,
I think about others, you know, that kind of thing. And all of a sudden
it scales the the the burden of work that we think we carry.
It scales it into a much more manageable right sized way that it's not
the only thing in your life that should give you meaning. There's a
difference between asking God to do something and letting
God have control. Yes. You know, like, I and I
find myself even when I think I'm giving control over to God,
like, really, I'm just asking God to kinda conform to my wins. Like, here's what
I wanna have happen, God. I trust you to to do it, and that doesn't
always work. Can you give an example of, like, what it looks like in in
your own life to just lay into God,
letting God have that control instead of just asking God to do it? It's so
funny because what you just described as a lifelong church person,
we we literally pray that every Sunday as part of the Lord's prayer, thy will
be done. Mhmm. And and what I learned was these old
timers in recovery rooms who would say the serenity prayer, God grant me the
serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the
courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the
difference. And then I hear I would hear some guys say, Thy
will, not my will be done. That's a
simple reminder comes
when we learn to accept that the things we just simply can't
change. That we ask God for the courage to be faithful to the
things we can change and that we seek God's wisdom to
know the difference between the two. Now, how does that work in your daily life?
It's funny how many issues can magically solve
themselves when I let go of them and stop trying to wrench them
into my timing or my way. I don't deal
well with unresolved tension. And so one of the
things that I've really had to work into, and now it comes a lot more
natural out of habit is, can I go to bed at night and
not stew over something that's not done or
something that's not, you know, solved yet and just say, you know what? We'll pick
it back up tomorrow. We'll pick it back up tomorrow.
Part of that too is the perspective change that I've learned in recovery that
I think people beyond recovery rooms need to know,
which is we only have today. We I've lived
my life too often dwelling on a past that I
cannot change or a future that I cannot
control. But if I live for today and say, God, give me
perspective just for today, God will take care of those other things
in God's timing. And then tomorrow, we'll get into today. We're not
guaranteed anything other than today. It's a freedom that that
that's almost indescribable, but it
really comes from trying to get out of God's way.
And I don't know that I ever realized how much I was just
trying to be God. Yeah.
Even from the aspect of being a pastor for all those years. Right? Oh, yeah.
Oh, all the church problems, the budget issues, the the
the, oh, no. Our top giver passed away. Oh, no. This mission,
trip's not gonna come together. All these things that you just and sometimes you
just have, you know and I'll have people come to me now and and worry,
and I have to remind myself to just tell them it's okay. We'll get
it. When? I don't know. They'll come together.
That's really hard. Yes. It is. Yes. It is. And and I
wish that I could just understand from reading your book how all that plays out
in my own life, but it feels like there's there's more of a process to
it than that. Well and that's the beauty of the steps. So you
begin with, you know, acknowledging that we try
to be God, to acknowledge God's role in our life.
The third step prayer is to give our life and our will over to the
love and care of God. So step three is that that we make a decision
to give our life and our will over to the love and care of God.
That's not something as Christians, that's you don't give your life to God
once. We give our life to God every day. This
is what Bonhoeffer talks about, you know, that that that Christ bids a
person to come and die. And and and I think it was mother Teresa who
said that that every day we we pray that we die to self so that
we can be raised again in Christ. So
that's the third step prayer. All these things that we talk about in
our discipleship language for me became very
real through those steps. You know, four
is a personal inventory. How do we go through the ways in which we we
just obsess and or sin and all these different
things that that we try to be God and then we try to reconcile those
things. Right? Yeah. You talked about this daily giving over of
ourselves. Do you have a reminder or a daily practice that
helps you kinda repeat that process? Yeah. So I'm
an early morning person and I go to the gym every morning. And so
part of my car ride, I I just I spend time just
praying. I kinda have the same formula, but it sort of ebbs and
flows. You know, I'm grateful to be sober. Every morning I wake up
now sober. It's funny. The magic is still there because I I can't tell you
how many mornings I woke up just like a car hit me, hurting.
But I can wake up and I I'm at peace with myself. I'm clear
headed. I feel rested. So I'm grateful for sobriety. I'm grateful
for a new day. And then we get into, you know, God give me acceptance
to accept life as it comes. Somebody told me once, this is a great analogy,
that we should hold life like a loose garment. You
know? Something that we don't hold and cling to so tight, but then we kinda
let it ebb and flow. And that ebbing and flowing is a trust
that God's gonna gonna guide us. Now we have our part, you know, but but
it's more a response to God versus us trying to
tell God to come with us. But, yeah, I pray every morning in the car.
I have about a 15 drive to the gym and and just every morning
try to pray of over it. There's a line in your book. My reading app
was telling me that it's one of the most highlighted. And it says life alignment
is about arranging our lives so that the things we invest time
in genuinely reflect values we hold
most dear. Why do you think that's been resonating so deeply?
Why do people keep coming back to that one? You know, you said that to
me, and I was thrilled to hear that. And that's not a line that I
would have expected. Right. Doesn't that always happen though? Like every
sermon you've ever given, you're like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Here's the take home.
And they're like, yeah. I really heard this in your sermon, pastor. Yeah.
You know, I I think that came from
sort of, you know, there's two ways to know what we value in life.
One is to look at our our checkbook and one is to look at our
calendar. And and someone told me that once, and someone told
me that once, and I've used it numerous times in sermons, that if you did
an audit of of the way you spend your money and you did an audit
of the way you spend your time, you'll know what you value in
life. Absolutely. And then I come I come to Jesus saying that that
where your treasure is, there your heart is also. I think
in the twenty first century world, he'd say, where your Google calendar is,
there your heart is also. So, yeah, I if if if you wanna live
a certain way and by certain values, we have to align our life
so that our time reflects those things. Otherwise, we're just
it's idle words. So for me, if I say that
I value,
let's let's let's say that I value I value being
rested, and then I stay up late doom scrolling on my
phone. What have I just done? I've gone against my values. Or
or or I wanna, be an early morning
person, and then I, you know, get get drink at night, you know, and
stay up too late and all this. Like, I'm going against my values
sometimes without even realizing it. So it's just saying if this is what I
value, then let's let's align our lives to follow that. You talk
about this thing in you referred to as margin time within the
book, something that that you value. First, can you explain to us what
margin time is? Yeah. For me, margin time
is how much time do you have that you don't
have something scheduled? I read an article
a few years ago. I think it was a Harvard Business Review article
that said one of the top practices they found of
CEOs of, you know, companies and stuff is what
they called, like, undesignated time. And one guy
described that he'd spend thirty minutes a day just looking out his window.
And they'd go looking out your window doing what? And he'd say nothing. Just
just looking out my window. And so what I try to do with
my time, because again, one of my values is and it's not that I value
margin time, it's that margin gets me to the value that
says, I don't need to be so busy that I have every minute of my
day dictated to me. So I
try to put a little bit, even if it's ten or fifteen minutes between
Zoom calls or between meetings,
I guard my time. You know, short of an emergency, I don't give
certain hours of the day away. My church people know
you may get an email from me very early in the
morning, and that's because I'm a morning person. But I don't take meetings
before 09:30. And the reason I do
that is I value my physical health Mhmm.
And wanna take care of that. And that's when I spend time with my kids
getting them ready for school. And that's a value to me, that being a parent.
And so I'm not gonna give that time away because, you know, there's this thing
that seemingly seems like a big deal and let that tell me how to
dictate my time. Short of an emergency like a life being threatened,
you know, here's the hours I'm available. And then boundary is one of the
most blessed words. I think in the Christian life, how do we set
good boundaries? So I read about margin time
and, we're gonna reveal a little bit of my neuroses here because at
start of every day, I map out the entire day. I mean,
hour by hour. And so within that, I've put in, like, this
as part of my checklist of of times on the day, I put in
margin time and it arrives. And I'm like, I'm not sure I'm doing this right
because it feels like it has become another thing within my day.
Have every hour out? With within my work day, I do. But
well, not not applied to. I mean, I'll I'll build in, you know,
a margin time or a break time or whatever that looks like. But how do
you keep it from, I don't know, not being not feeling a pressure
of something else that you have to do? Yeah. Yeah. The reason I
asked that is because the one thing I I would if I were coaching you,
I would say that's a great practice to be organized,
but you're planning way too much because you're controlling too much of your day.
Okay. And and what would it look like if
you gave up some of that control? Could your soul take
that? Part of what was Well, yeah. I I I have a feeling
that the right answer is yes. Right, Ben? But there's a part of me
that's like The right answer is the honest answer. And and
the authentic answer and and one of the great gifts that
I have worked into in recovery and therapy is to stop
placing value judgments on everything in my life. Mhmm.
You said the right answer. And Oh. That's what I would say too.
Why does it have to be right or wrong? It just is. But I would
guess you're a perfectionist, and you're very
productive, and you get a lot of meaning and purpose out of the fact that
you're able to to to produce and to do.
There's nothing wrong with that. What's healthy though
is to say, at what point am I doing this for
reasons other than the work itself, which is to feed some kinda inner
need? Mhmm. At what point am I doing this at the expense of
something more important? Like, am I taking this meeting
here when it'd be fine to just blow the meeting off and go spend an
hour with my kids? Or something for myself. Or even we're playing a
coaching game here. Or even, like, do you map in time for
you? Mhmm. Mhmm. Because one of the things that I was
so bad and have been so bad about is that my god time is usually
time that I'm giving away. Reading the Bible for
sermon preparation. Yeah. Preparing a Bible. So sometimes I just
need to read the Bible for my own soul. Mhmm. I need to be
as selfish as I can possibly be. Because if I'm not
taking care of myself proactively, guess what happens at least for
me? I become selfish in other ways because
I I don't even realize how resentful I'm getting for how
much I'm giving away to everybody else. And then for me, that's why
I'm gonna sit down and have a couple drinks tonight. Mhmm. Because I
deserve it. Maybe let go of some of that. Alright. Alright. No
schedule will be written tomorrow. We'll just You can make a schedule, but be
make it looser. I walk my dog. And so what I do is I get
out and walk for fifteen minutes. And and just those few
minutes, podcasts are your friends, something you enjoy, get one of those
wrestling podcasts we talked about or something. Think about fifteen minutes
of it or or an audio book. I don't know. Just something to
breathe in the glory of God. Well, you wrote this book because you had
experienced a a sense of transformation leading into it.
Was there a part of the writing process that brought
some things up for you or brought some, in a sense, connection
or enlightenment? Oh, yeah. It was a very cathartic experience.
I was sad when I finished the manuscript. I felt like I was
sending my child off to kindergarten and, you know, by by sending it to the
fellowship. Because every morning, I was I was kinda alternating some writing
time and with gym time. And a lot of mornings at 05:00 instead of
the gym, I was I was writing and thinking and reflecting
and writing chapters that made me cry. May not make anyone else cry, but it
made me. James Howell told me recently, and I love this line. He said that
he found that writing was really for him, and if you wanted to
look over his shoulder and get something out of it, great. And that was that
was a a lot of my experience that this book really was for
me, to just unload this cathartic experience. And if if a
reader can pick it up and get something, what a gift. I love that.
Yeah. I mean, I thought a lot about a difficult childhood.
I thought a lot about the man that I wanna be. I wrote a whole
chapter on fatherhood and and manhood because I think I
think this notion of hypermasculinity is
one of the worst things that is that is victimizing and taking
advantage of young men in our country. Because boys are
being told that things like feelings are enemies Yeah. A
lot. They're God's gift. And so
what you have are overgrown little boys who are who
are coming into adulthood and running the world, who
think that being a man is about exerting strength,
when they forget that the strongest thing we can do is be
vulnerable and self giving
and compassionate. So yeah. Yeah. All of that was
just so important for me. Well, for folks who maybe want to hear more
of of what you're doing, is there a convenient spot online for them to look
you up? Yeah. So my publicist, told me that I have
not done a good job at bengosdencoaching,uh,.com
is out there and that is where I do I've started doing a little bit
of consulting and coaching work whether it's one on one coaching which I love. I
mean, I use kind of a 12 step approach with people for whatever it is
that they wanna make a life change about. But I've done a little bit of
business coaching. I love working with churches. So any way that we can
can come along and journey alongside some, transformation
is great. So there and then social media is at b
Gosden, g o s d e n, on Facebook or Instagram. Ben, thank you
so much for spending this time with us and for sharing your story with us.
Thank you, Ryan. Appreciate you always. Well,
that brings us to the end of this episode. A big thank you again
to Ben Gosden for sharing his story with us. If you found
today's conversation as inspiring as I did, then I
invite you to visit our website at
umc.org/compass. There you'll find
detailed episode notes and more episodes to explore
on your journey to finding spirituality
incredible team at United Methodist Communications for making this
podcast possible. Your dedication and hard work behind the
scenes allow us to bring you meaningful stories and insights
every other Wednesday, which is when new episodes of Compass come out. If
you haven't already done so, please consider again subscribing to
Compass Finding Spirituality in the Everyday. Your subscriptions,
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help others find the podcast and join our growing community.
If you want more compass right now, well, check out episode number
145, contentment and connecting with all life.
Another super cool episode of transformation is number one thirty nine,
from hate to hope. That's with my friend, Neely Hicks. Thank
you again for tuning in and being a part of our Compass journey.
Until next time, stay curious and open to grace and
spirituality that surrounds us in our everyday lives.
Peace.