WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.760 Hi, this is Compass Finding Spirituality in the Everyday. My name 2 00:00:03.760 --> 00:00:07.140 is Ryan Dunn. This is an episode about 3 00:00:07.200 --> 00:00:11.040 transformation. We're going to hear Ben Gosdin's story about 4 00:00:11.040 --> 00:00:14.394 addiction, recovery, and grace. What's 5 00:00:14.394 --> 00:00:18.235 interesting is that as we hear Ben share his story, we're invited to take note 6 00:00:18.235 --> 00:00:21.835 of the ways in which our own lives have fallen out of 7 00:00:21.835 --> 00:00:25.675 alignment with our values. We also will learn about how the 8 00:00:25.675 --> 00:00:29.220 principles of recovery impact our faith faith and our 9 00:00:29.220 --> 00:00:32.900 daily habits. Ben Gosdin is a pastor and 10 00:00:32.900 --> 00:00:36.660 author of Grace Rediscovered, a book that narrates his personal journey 11 00:00:36.660 --> 00:00:40.500 towards recovery and spiritual alignment. With over fifteen years 12 00:00:40.500 --> 00:00:44.035 of pastoral experience, Ben shares insights on 13 00:00:44.035 --> 00:00:47.175 overcoming addiction, the power of prayer in recovery, 14 00:00:47.475 --> 00:00:51.155 and the importance of humility and acceptance in our 15 00:00:51.155 --> 00:00:54.950 faith journeys. If stories like this are meaningful for you, 16 00:00:55.090 --> 00:00:58.850 we invite you to share your appreciation by clicking the subscribe 17 00:00:58.850 --> 00:01:02.610 button on your podcast listening platform. You can also leave a 18 00:01:02.610 --> 00:01:06.130 rating and review on your podcast platform that helps new 19 00:01:06.130 --> 00:01:09.895 people discover the meaningful stories that we share through 20 00:01:09.895 --> 00:01:13.275 Compass. Alright. Let's get into an inspiring 21 00:01:13.415 --> 00:01:16.935 discussion that highlights the presence of grace in our everyday 22 00:01:16.935 --> 00:01:19.835 lives with Ben Gosdin here on Compass. 23 00:01:22.880 --> 00:01:26.720 Ben, it sounds like we watched a lot of the same shows growing up. I 24 00:01:26.720 --> 00:01:30.479 noticed that you also have a fondness for professional wrestling. Is that 25 00:01:30.479 --> 00:01:34.035 true? Does that still last for today, or did you outgrow that? You know, 26 00:01:34.035 --> 00:01:37.795 it's funny. I am probably one of those, like, get off my lawn, guys. I 27 00:01:37.795 --> 00:01:41.475 don't I don't follow enough now. Yeah. But one of the beautiful 28 00:01:41.475 --> 00:01:45.050 things that you're probably aware of this is Paul, like, it seems like all the 29 00:01:45.050 --> 00:01:48.730 pro wrestlers from when we were kids, obviously, they're too old to wrestle. They've all 30 00:01:48.730 --> 00:01:52.410 got podcasts now. They do. And it is 31 00:01:52.410 --> 00:01:56.210 like reliving my childhood. Man, I Bruce Pritchard's podcast 32 00:01:56.570 --> 00:02:00.410 Yeah. He's been in the WWE guys forever. I love Bruce 33 00:02:00.410 --> 00:02:04.225 Pritchard and just all the inside stories about all the stuff that 34 00:02:04.225 --> 00:02:07.905 we grew up watching. So I'm probably more nostalgic about pro 35 00:02:07.905 --> 00:02:11.745 wrestling. Yeah. But I I do appreciate it. I really do. 36 00:02:11.745 --> 00:02:15.209 Yeah. Same boat. I got into that stuff in the the biographies 37 00:02:15.590 --> 00:02:19.349 on a and e. Did you see those? So I I found 38 00:02:19.349 --> 00:02:23.030 myself watching those kind of thinking, like, you know what? I think 39 00:02:23.030 --> 00:02:26.709 I like professional wrestling. Don't tell anybody. Well, and I'll tell you 40 00:02:26.709 --> 00:02:29.944 what's fun. Did you follow it as a kid? I did. Uh-huh. 41 00:02:30.084 --> 00:02:33.385 Okay. So do you subscribe to Peacock? Yes. 42 00:02:33.845 --> 00:02:37.685 So you know they got all our vibes. Yeah. All the stuff. I mean, 43 00:02:37.685 --> 00:02:40.724 you can go back and watch the pay per view. Oh, man. It it it 44 00:02:40.724 --> 00:02:44.540 is so much fun. It's so much fun. Amazing. Our our listeners are 45 00:02:44.540 --> 00:02:48.380 like, what are these guys talking about? Oh, man. We're, well, 46 00:02:48.380 --> 00:02:51.820 we're looking at our past, so we're talking about the presence of grace throughout our 47 00:02:51.820 --> 00:02:55.200 lives. And one of the ways that you kind of address 48 00:02:55.745 --> 00:02:59.425 your past, Ben, is looking at some of the things that you grabbed 49 00:02:59.425 --> 00:03:02.805 onto growing up and what was sometimes a chaotic 50 00:03:02.865 --> 00:03:06.545 childhood. And, you noted that oftentimes, well, you looked for 51 00:03:06.545 --> 00:03:10.370 father figures and professional wrestlers, and sometimes you look for family 52 00:03:10.370 --> 00:03:14.210 connections through, like, the TGIF shows that came on ABC on 53 00:03:14.210 --> 00:03:17.990 Friday nights. Did you have a particular favorite show or TV family 54 00:03:18.050 --> 00:03:21.255 or one that you'd like to find yourself in the midst of right now? You 55 00:03:21.255 --> 00:03:24.795 know, it's it's funny. I remember when I was a kid, I loved 56 00:03:24.935 --> 00:03:28.775 Family Matters. Mhmm. I I there was something about 57 00:03:28.775 --> 00:03:31.895 the Winslow family that was a lot of fun, but, of course, I love full 58 00:03:31.895 --> 00:03:35.670 house. Oh, yeah. Step by step was fun. You know, 59 00:03:35.670 --> 00:03:39.370 all all the TGIF. I remember TGIF being a wonderful 60 00:03:39.430 --> 00:03:43.270 thing because my parents you know, this was also the day and age 61 00:03:43.270 --> 00:03:46.965 when you probably had only one TV in the house. Mhmm. My 62 00:03:46.965 --> 00:03:50.725 parents had shows that they liked, and it was like, don't 63 00:03:50.725 --> 00:03:54.485 talk while our shows are on. TGIF was designed, I 64 00:03:54.485 --> 00:03:57.625 know, for families, but it was really something that felt inclusive 65 00:03:58.245 --> 00:04:01.460 of kids. And it's funny, you know, 66 00:04:03.060 --> 00:04:06.660 looking back, there's a lot of things that are formative about those 67 00:04:06.660 --> 00:04:10.500 sitcoms that we don't realize, and it and it comes out in 68 00:04:10.500 --> 00:04:13.940 deep ways and sort of the the unfulfilled expectations of 69 00:04:13.940 --> 00:04:17.675 our childhoods. Right. It's like almost each one had some 70 00:04:17.675 --> 00:04:21.435 kind of lesson that they were trying to teach throughout it. Right? Yeah. Yeah. 71 00:04:21.435 --> 00:04:25.115 And and and and and you think that life can be solved, the hard 72 00:04:25.115 --> 00:04:28.955 moments with, like, a sit down conversation at the end of an episode 73 00:04:28.955 --> 00:04:32.699 and piano music playing in the background and everything's fine and 74 00:04:32.819 --> 00:04:36.500 but you realize it's it's not. You know, you you 75 00:04:36.500 --> 00:04:40.099 age and you're like, you know, life's a lot more messy than a sitcom. But 76 00:04:40.099 --> 00:04:43.639 for what they were, they're they're wonderful escapes. Yeah. 77 00:04:43.699 --> 00:04:47.504 Well, your book is Grace Rediscovered, and it's, about a a 78 00:04:47.504 --> 00:04:51.205 journey in recovery. I think a lot of us tend to, 79 00:04:51.985 --> 00:04:55.604 when it comes to the the heavy things 80 00:04:55.824 --> 00:04:59.300 or things like addiction, we gloss over it. And, 81 00:04:59.300 --> 00:05:02.819 certainly, that's part of your story in terms of kinda being in 82 00:05:02.819 --> 00:05:06.259 denial. Was there, like, a moment of realization for you, a kind 83 00:05:06.259 --> 00:05:10.099 of moment when you realized that maybe you did have 84 00:05:10.099 --> 00:05:13.185 an addiction? You know, I was told growing up 85 00:05:14.225 --> 00:05:17.985 that addiction was in my family. And so I knew and and 86 00:05:17.985 --> 00:05:21.365 my father my father was an alcoholic that 87 00:05:21.745 --> 00:05:25.505 my mother forbid from drinking. Okay. And as a friend in recovery has told me, 88 00:05:25.505 --> 00:05:28.800 god, there's nothing more miserable than an alcoholic who's not allowed to drink. I mean, 89 00:05:28.800 --> 00:05:32.560 it's just the worst. And and so I knew that genetically it was there, 90 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:36.080 but, you know, it's almost hard to describe. So that was one 91 00:05:36.080 --> 00:05:39.700 element. Then another element was I was never comfortable in my own skin 92 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:43.285 growing up. I always wanted to fit in. I was so afraid of rejection. 93 00:05:43.745 --> 00:05:47.425 And I I remember the very first night in college when 94 00:05:47.425 --> 00:05:51.125 I when I had alcohol and it the warmth 95 00:05:51.185 --> 00:05:54.500 that washed over me and all of a sudden the ease 96 00:05:54.800 --> 00:05:58.400 that I felt, it was magic. I mean, it was just like this is what 97 00:05:58.400 --> 00:06:01.840 I've been looking for. I mean, I ebbed and flowed and then, of 98 00:06:01.840 --> 00:06:05.599 course, as I came into a career and had more money and 99 00:06:05.599 --> 00:06:08.865 able to buy more alcohol and it just a nightly 100 00:06:09.085 --> 00:06:12.685 unwinding routine slowly became something that I didn't even 101 00:06:12.685 --> 00:06:15.724 realize it was out of control until it was out of control. And it was 102 00:06:15.724 --> 00:06:19.564 really during the COVID pandemic that I began 103 00:06:19.564 --> 00:06:23.400 to really you know, as I told somebody recently, I began to 104 00:06:23.560 --> 00:06:26.520 like, the morning after, and I felt like I'd been hit by a car. It 105 00:06:26.520 --> 00:06:29.960 was just it was awful. But, you know, it was the pandemic and, you know, 106 00:06:29.960 --> 00:06:33.639 we were all kinda just, you know, taking things very casual because we 107 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:37.475 couldn't go anywhere. Yeah. And I found myself the next morning 108 00:06:37.775 --> 00:06:41.375 feeling both physically terrible and then this deep sense of shame. 109 00:06:41.375 --> 00:06:44.335 And I knew that I would tell myself, like, oh, that was too much last 110 00:06:44.335 --> 00:06:48.014 night. I'm I'm not gonna do that again. And then unconsciously, I 111 00:06:48.014 --> 00:06:51.410 would that same night be doing it all over again. And I began 112 00:06:51.410 --> 00:06:55.110 to to Google how many drinks makes you an alcoholic. 113 00:06:55.169 --> 00:06:58.849 And looking back, I realized if you have to Google whether or not 114 00:06:58.849 --> 00:07:02.569 you're you probably are alcoholic. So 115 00:07:02.773 --> 00:07:06.565 I was rationalizing my my intake and and that's when 116 00:07:06.565 --> 00:07:10.365 I really began to say something's probably not right. And it was 117 00:07:10.365 --> 00:07:14.025 a combination of the pandemic. I was getting my doctor of ministry. 118 00:07:14.645 --> 00:07:18.490 I was a functioning pastor doing what pastors were doing of just trying to 119 00:07:18.490 --> 00:07:22.110 do all the virtual. And and I was increasingly exhausted 120 00:07:22.250 --> 00:07:26.009 and not, like, just tired. Like like, my soul was weary. 121 00:07:26.009 --> 00:07:29.775 So I'm there was something that was coalescing in there, But it really began 122 00:07:29.775 --> 00:07:33.215 with that, you know, one of these dry Jan. 0 things, you know, that that's 123 00:07:33.215 --> 00:07:36.575 in in vogue. And I just began to feel a 124 00:07:36.575 --> 00:07:40.255 shift all around that I thought there's something going on 125 00:07:40.255 --> 00:07:43.615 here. There's a longer story that it took me about three months, and I 126 00:07:43.615 --> 00:07:47.180 realized there's something deeper here than just I need to break a habit. 127 00:07:47.639 --> 00:07:50.060 Yeah. But all along, you were still 128 00:07:51.080 --> 00:07:54.760 functional. Right? It's not like, you were losing jobs over this or 129 00:07:54.760 --> 00:07:58.220 anything like that. I was functional on the outside. 130 00:07:58.695 --> 00:08:02.315 I was increasingly miserable on the inside. 131 00:08:02.455 --> 00:08:05.815 And such perfectionism is a 132 00:08:05.815 --> 00:08:09.655 paralyzing thing in me. Mhmm. I wanna be all the things to all 133 00:08:09.655 --> 00:08:13.340 the people all the time. And it works until it doesn't. And alcohol 134 00:08:13.400 --> 00:08:17.160 became the thing that that I escaped with, the thing 135 00:08:17.160 --> 00:08:21.000 that I self medicated. It said, you know, this tension would rise every 136 00:08:21.000 --> 00:08:23.655 day, and it was the thing that would take the edge off. 137 00:08:24.935 --> 00:08:28.615 So yeah. I mean, yes, on the one hand, but but I also I also 138 00:08:28.615 --> 00:08:32.455 think I probably was gonna be one of those alcoholics that it may 139 00:08:32.455 --> 00:08:35.275 not have been the loss of a job, but it may have been a diagnosis. 140 00:08:35.655 --> 00:08:39.480 It may have been a doctor saying, hey. There's something wrong. Okay. 141 00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:42.860 And and it's from years. I mean, because I was over ten years of 142 00:08:43.799 --> 00:08:47.480 secretly daily heavy drinking. What were your first 143 00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:51.160 steps towards recovery? My first steps were what we 144 00:08:51.160 --> 00:08:55.005 call white knuckling, which is like you just grit 145 00:08:55.005 --> 00:08:58.524 and bear every night because my body and and and 146 00:08:58.524 --> 00:09:02.365 everything was like clockwork. At 08:30 at night, I would sit down with a cocktail 147 00:09:02.365 --> 00:09:05.725 and, you know, I would I would try to avoid it and I would walk 148 00:09:05.725 --> 00:09:08.865 the dog and I would, you know, all these and I would be increasingly anxious. 149 00:09:09.570 --> 00:09:12.770 I became an early bird, which I am to this day because I just decided 150 00:09:12.770 --> 00:09:16.530 I'm gonna go to bed. If I if I go to sleep, then then I 151 00:09:16.530 --> 00:09:20.070 don't have to worry with it. So I started going to bed about 09:00 152 00:09:20.450 --> 00:09:23.990 and and now wake up around four in the morning and realize 153 00:09:24.365 --> 00:09:28.125 I love being a morning person. But all that was to avoid it. It 154 00:09:28.125 --> 00:09:31.824 was about three months in that I had an opportunity 155 00:09:31.964 --> 00:09:35.324 with a group that I could have a drink, and I began to do what 156 00:09:35.324 --> 00:09:38.365 we call in recovery, play the tape where I just kinda played. Well, I could 157 00:09:38.365 --> 00:09:42.180 have one. Mhmm. And then I played it out where I knew what would 158 00:09:42.180 --> 00:09:46.020 happen, what would happen. That's when I called a friend who I know is in 159 00:09:46.020 --> 00:09:49.860 recovery, and I said, I think I've got a problem. Normal people don't 160 00:09:49.860 --> 00:09:53.700 think about alcohol the way that I think about it. And, Ryan, 161 00:09:53.700 --> 00:09:57.205 it even get got into, you know, it is weird to say for people who 162 00:09:57.205 --> 00:10:00.805 are nonalcoholics, the emotional and mental energy I would 163 00:10:00.805 --> 00:10:04.565 spend every day taking stock. How much is in the house? Do I need to 164 00:10:04.565 --> 00:10:08.245 go to the liquor store? When I travel, where's the nearest liquor store? How can 165 00:10:08.245 --> 00:10:11.940 I go you know, all these things that normal people just don't spend that 166 00:10:11.940 --> 00:10:15.540 kind of time thinking about, I 167 00:10:15.540 --> 00:10:19.300 quietly obsessed over? Was that the first point 168 00:10:19.300 --> 00:10:22.980 at which you reached out to somebody else about this? Were you just 169 00:10:22.980 --> 00:10:26.625 carrying it all yourself up to that point? Yeah. Yeah. It 170 00:10:26.625 --> 00:10:30.464 was. Even hiding my my worries from my wife, because 171 00:10:30.464 --> 00:10:33.745 I was never a mean drunk. I was actually a fun one. You know, it 172 00:10:33.745 --> 00:10:37.185 would loosen me up. I'd get funnier. I was beginning to have memory 173 00:10:37.185 --> 00:10:40.740 lapses, which is one of the first signs of what what doctors call, like, wet 174 00:10:40.740 --> 00:10:44.340 brain. We would have entire conversations that I wouldn't remember the next 175 00:10:44.340 --> 00:10:47.800 morning. And and so I knew I knew something was going on. 176 00:10:48.100 --> 00:10:51.860 But, yeah, reaching out to to a friend who's actually a church member. And 177 00:10:51.860 --> 00:10:55.295 I'm blessed, by the way, that I have numerous church members who are very 178 00:10:55.295 --> 00:10:59.135 publicly in recovery. We have recovery ministries that that happen 179 00:10:59.135 --> 00:11:02.915 out of here. And so I've been a supporter of the recovery 180 00:11:02.975 --> 00:11:06.750 world for years. I had no idea until then 181 00:11:06.750 --> 00:11:09.710 that I needed to be a member of it. Are you able to look at 182 00:11:09.710 --> 00:11:13.310 some of the process of recovery and really point out how it 183 00:11:13.310 --> 00:11:16.750 opens us up to a deeper relationship to to 184 00:11:16.750 --> 00:11:20.425 God? Why are the principles of recovery so 185 00:11:20.425 --> 00:11:24.264 important in our faith walk? Like, I think about this even for the person who's 186 00:11:24.264 --> 00:11:27.485 listening, who's maybe saying, well, you know, I don't 187 00:11:27.625 --> 00:11:31.404 identify an addiction that I need to that I need recovery from. Why 188 00:11:31.464 --> 00:11:35.110 would I be that interested in the principles of recovery? Yeah. 189 00:11:36.209 --> 00:11:39.170 The the story I tell in the book is one of my favorite ones a 190 00:11:39.170 --> 00:11:42.610 friend told that a guy who'd been in recovery for a long time said to 191 00:11:42.610 --> 00:11:46.290 him at a meeting once, he said, you know the difference between God 192 00:11:46.290 --> 00:11:50.070 and you? And he goes, no? What? And he goes, 193 00:11:50.255 --> 00:11:53.315 god doesn't go around pretending to be you. Right. 194 00:11:54.255 --> 00:11:57.774 And the truth is, now three years later, I can 195 00:11:57.774 --> 00:12:01.615 see my addiction and my disease as a gift 196 00:12:01.615 --> 00:12:05.315 because it opened me up to the reality that god is god 197 00:12:05.570 --> 00:12:09.350 and I am not. And more than I care to 198 00:12:09.370 --> 00:12:13.010 even describe, I try to play God in my life. Whether 199 00:12:13.010 --> 00:12:16.770 it's obsessing about the future, trying to control other people's 200 00:12:16.770 --> 00:12:19.750 lives, worrying about things that are beyond my control, 201 00:12:20.565 --> 00:12:24.325 all these things that that whether you have a disease, the disease of addiction or 202 00:12:24.325 --> 00:12:27.925 not, we all try to play God in some form or fashion or 203 00:12:27.925 --> 00:12:31.685 and or we self medicate. You know, when when we can't 204 00:12:31.685 --> 00:12:34.920 be God and we're all anxious about it, well, what do we do? We go 205 00:12:34.920 --> 00:12:38.540 eat. We we we scroll. We doom scroll on social media. 206 00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:42.280 We, we work. You know, we become workaholics. We 207 00:12:42.280 --> 00:12:45.800 try to fill a God sized hole in our soul somehow or 208 00:12:45.800 --> 00:12:49.524 another. For me, alcohol worked until it couldn't work 209 00:12:49.524 --> 00:12:53.365 anymore. But alcohol was the outward expression of 210 00:12:53.365 --> 00:12:57.204 an inward disease that I was also a workaholic. That I 211 00:12:57.204 --> 00:13:01.000 was also my ego was bigger than it should have been. I needed 212 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:04.680 right sizing. I was a control freak. I had to let go of some 213 00:13:04.680 --> 00:13:08.139 things to just accept. I can't control everything. 214 00:13:08.680 --> 00:13:12.040 Yeah. Well, tell me about that a little bit because with 215 00:13:12.040 --> 00:13:15.555 drinking, you can quit drinking, but you can't stop working 216 00:13:15.555 --> 00:13:19.095 then. So how does it how does it work to be a workaholic 217 00:13:19.475 --> 00:13:22.995 in recovery while still working? Yeah. 218 00:13:22.995 --> 00:13:26.755 You just like with alcohol and 219 00:13:26.755 --> 00:13:30.420 where every day, I pray for a few I 220 00:13:30.420 --> 00:13:33.620 pray for numerous things there. By the way, let me begin by saying, I'm a 221 00:13:33.620 --> 00:13:36.420 pastor and I've been one for almost fifteen years and a Christian most of my 222 00:13:36.420 --> 00:13:39.960 life. I've never prayed the way that I've prayed in recovery. 223 00:13:40.980 --> 00:13:44.740 It opened my spiritual life in a way that I've experienced God's 224 00:13:44.740 --> 00:13:47.855 salvation in in daily 225 00:13:49.035 --> 00:13:52.575 mysterious, just wonderful ways. 226 00:13:53.834 --> 00:13:55.695 How did your how did your prayers change? 227 00:13:58.089 --> 00:14:01.770 From prayers of petition, you know, God, give me this, 228 00:14:01.770 --> 00:14:05.230 give me that, help this, help that, to 229 00:14:05.370 --> 00:14:09.070 prayers like, God, help me accept life as it comes today. 230 00:14:10.025 --> 00:14:13.865 Help me remember the things that I cannot control and and help 231 00:14:13.865 --> 00:14:17.465 me to put my whole I mean, I I even you can steal baptismal language, 232 00:14:17.465 --> 00:14:21.305 by the way. Help me to put my whole trust in your grace. We 233 00:14:21.305 --> 00:14:25.100 say that in our baptismal liturgy. The first three steps of the 12 234 00:14:25.100 --> 00:14:28.860 steps say that that that, you know, essentially you can 235 00:14:28.860 --> 00:14:32.319 boil them down to can't, God can, 236 00:14:32.860 --> 00:14:36.699 I think I'll let God? That's steps one, two, and three. And if that 237 00:14:36.699 --> 00:14:40.435 becomes your prayer every day to to just rest in the 238 00:14:40.435 --> 00:14:44.194 mystery that I can't do this alone, God, but you 239 00:14:44.194 --> 00:14:47.634 can come alongside me. And I think I'm gonna let go of some 240 00:14:47.634 --> 00:14:50.935 stuff and let you do that. The burden 241 00:14:51.314 --> 00:14:54.820 that sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly, 242 00:14:55.040 --> 00:14:58.880 but in God's timing begins to just unload from you. And 243 00:14:58.880 --> 00:15:02.100 by the way, how can you be able get over the workaholism too? 244 00:15:03.280 --> 00:15:06.805 You reorder your life. You also realize 245 00:15:06.865 --> 00:15:10.065 that a lot of the quote effort I'm putting in is a way that I'm 246 00:15:10.065 --> 00:15:13.745 trying to do things that are beyond my control. I'm trying to be the greatest 247 00:15:13.745 --> 00:15:17.265 at whatever it is. I'm trying for my my DS to think I'm the best 248 00:15:17.265 --> 00:15:20.830 pastor in the district. I want the bishop to notice me. I want all these 249 00:15:20.830 --> 00:15:24.110 things and then you just say, you know what? Those things don't matter, but what 250 00:15:24.110 --> 00:15:27.730 does matter? I do a good job, I'm faithful to my work, 251 00:15:27.950 --> 00:15:30.830 I think about others, you know, that kind of thing. And all of a sudden 252 00:15:30.830 --> 00:15:34.665 it scales the the the burden of work that we think we carry. 253 00:15:34.824 --> 00:15:38.665 It scales it into a much more manageable right sized way that it's not 254 00:15:38.665 --> 00:15:42.105 the only thing in your life that should give you meaning. There's a 255 00:15:42.105 --> 00:15:45.884 difference between asking God to do something and letting 256 00:15:45.945 --> 00:15:49.620 God have control. Yes. You know, like, I and I 257 00:15:49.620 --> 00:15:53.380 find myself even when I think I'm giving control over to God, 258 00:15:53.380 --> 00:15:57.220 like, really, I'm just asking God to kinda conform to my wins. Like, here's what 259 00:15:57.220 --> 00:16:01.060 I wanna have happen, God. I trust you to to do it, and that doesn't 260 00:16:01.060 --> 00:16:04.855 always work. Can you give an example of, like, what it looks like in in 261 00:16:04.855 --> 00:16:08.555 your own life to just lay into God, 262 00:16:08.855 --> 00:16:12.375 letting God have that control instead of just asking God to do it? It's so 263 00:16:12.375 --> 00:16:16.155 funny because what you just described as a lifelong church person, 264 00:16:16.329 --> 00:16:19.690 we we literally pray that every Sunday as part of the Lord's prayer, thy will 265 00:16:19.690 --> 00:16:23.529 be done. Mhmm. And and what I learned was these old 266 00:16:23.529 --> 00:16:26.970 timers in recovery rooms who would say the serenity prayer, God grant me the 267 00:16:26.970 --> 00:16:30.605 serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the 268 00:16:30.605 --> 00:16:34.125 courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the 269 00:16:34.125 --> 00:16:37.805 difference. And then I hear I would hear some guys say, Thy 270 00:16:37.805 --> 00:16:41.324 will, not my will be done. That's a 271 00:16:41.324 --> 00:16:45.089 simple reminder comes 272 00:16:45.089 --> 00:16:48.529 when we learn to accept that the things we just simply can't 273 00:16:48.529 --> 00:16:52.209 change. That we ask God for the courage to be faithful to the 274 00:16:52.209 --> 00:16:55.970 things we can change and that we seek God's wisdom to 275 00:16:55.970 --> 00:16:59.665 know the difference between the two. Now, how does that work in your daily life? 276 00:16:59.965 --> 00:17:03.485 It's funny how many issues can magically solve 277 00:17:03.485 --> 00:17:07.325 themselves when I let go of them and stop trying to wrench them 278 00:17:07.325 --> 00:17:11.079 into my timing or my way. I don't deal 279 00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:14.760 well with unresolved tension. And so one of the 280 00:17:14.760 --> 00:17:18.039 things that I've really had to work into, and now it comes a lot more 281 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:21.480 natural out of habit is, can I go to bed at night and 282 00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:25.135 not stew over something that's not done or 283 00:17:25.135 --> 00:17:28.975 something that's not, you know, solved yet and just say, you know what? We'll pick 284 00:17:28.975 --> 00:17:32.434 it back up tomorrow. We'll pick it back up tomorrow. 285 00:17:34.015 --> 00:17:37.855 Part of that too is the perspective change that I've learned in recovery that 286 00:17:37.855 --> 00:17:41.170 I think people beyond recovery rooms need to know, 287 00:17:41.470 --> 00:17:45.230 which is we only have today. We I've lived 288 00:17:45.230 --> 00:17:48.990 my life too often dwelling on a past that I 289 00:17:48.990 --> 00:17:52.830 cannot change or a future that I cannot 290 00:17:52.830 --> 00:17:56.674 control. But if I live for today and say, God, give me 291 00:17:56.674 --> 00:18:00.434 perspective just for today, God will take care of those other things 292 00:18:00.434 --> 00:18:04.035 in God's timing. And then tomorrow, we'll get into today. We're not 293 00:18:04.035 --> 00:18:07.635 guaranteed anything other than today. It's a freedom that that 294 00:18:07.794 --> 00:18:11.490 that's almost indescribable, but it 295 00:18:11.490 --> 00:18:15.030 really comes from trying to get out of God's way. 296 00:18:15.250 --> 00:18:18.309 And I don't know that I ever realized how much I was just 297 00:18:18.929 --> 00:18:22.655 trying to be God. Yeah. 298 00:18:22.655 --> 00:18:26.175 Even from the aspect of being a pastor for all those years. Right? Oh, yeah. 299 00:18:26.175 --> 00:18:30.015 Oh, all the church problems, the budget issues, the the 300 00:18:30.015 --> 00:18:33.475 the, oh, no. Our top giver passed away. Oh, no. This mission, 301 00:18:34.015 --> 00:18:37.710 trip's not gonna come together. All these things that you just and sometimes you 302 00:18:37.710 --> 00:18:40.850 just have, you know and I'll have people come to me now and and worry, 303 00:18:41.070 --> 00:18:44.750 and I have to remind myself to just tell them it's okay. We'll get 304 00:18:44.750 --> 00:18:48.370 it. When? I don't know. They'll come together. 305 00:18:49.309 --> 00:18:52.995 That's really hard. Yes. It is. Yes. It is. And and I 306 00:18:52.995 --> 00:18:56.674 wish that I could just understand from reading your book how all that plays out 307 00:18:56.674 --> 00:18:59.715 in my own life, but it feels like there's there's more of a process to 308 00:18:59.715 --> 00:19:03.154 it than that. Well and that's the beauty of the steps. So you 309 00:19:03.154 --> 00:19:06.870 begin with, you know, acknowledging that we try 310 00:19:06.870 --> 00:19:10.169 to be God, to acknowledge God's role in our life. 311 00:19:10.710 --> 00:19:14.470 The third step prayer is to give our life and our will over to the 312 00:19:14.470 --> 00:19:18.150 love and care of God. So step three is that that we make a decision 313 00:19:18.150 --> 00:19:20.755 to give our life and our will over to the love and care of God. 314 00:19:20.755 --> 00:19:24.275 That's not something as Christians, that's you don't give your life to God 315 00:19:24.275 --> 00:19:28.115 once. We give our life to God every day. This 316 00:19:28.115 --> 00:19:31.795 is what Bonhoeffer talks about, you know, that that that Christ bids a 317 00:19:31.795 --> 00:19:35.520 person to come and die. And and and I think it was mother Teresa who 318 00:19:35.520 --> 00:19:39.040 said that that every day we we pray that we die to self so that 319 00:19:39.040 --> 00:19:42.720 we can be raised again in Christ. So 320 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:46.559 that's the third step prayer. All these things that we talk about in 321 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:49.995 our discipleship language for me became very 322 00:19:49.995 --> 00:19:53.835 real through those steps. You know, four 323 00:19:53.835 --> 00:19:57.115 is a personal inventory. How do we go through the ways in which we we 324 00:19:57.115 --> 00:20:00.715 just obsess and or sin and all these different 325 00:20:00.715 --> 00:20:04.470 things that that we try to be God and then we try to reconcile those 326 00:20:04.470 --> 00:20:08.150 things. Right? Yeah. You talked about this daily giving over of 327 00:20:08.150 --> 00:20:11.910 ourselves. Do you have a reminder or a daily practice that 328 00:20:11.910 --> 00:20:15.669 helps you kinda repeat that process? Yeah. So I'm 329 00:20:15.669 --> 00:20:19.515 an early morning person and I go to the gym every morning. And so 330 00:20:19.515 --> 00:20:23.275 part of my car ride, I I just I spend time just 331 00:20:23.275 --> 00:20:26.955 praying. I kinda have the same formula, but it sort of ebbs and 332 00:20:26.955 --> 00:20:30.795 flows. You know, I'm grateful to be sober. Every morning I wake up 333 00:20:30.795 --> 00:20:34.640 now sober. It's funny. The magic is still there because I I can't tell you 334 00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:38.260 how many mornings I woke up just like a car hit me, hurting. 335 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:42.240 But I can wake up and I I'm at peace with myself. I'm clear 336 00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:46.080 headed. I feel rested. So I'm grateful for sobriety. I'm grateful 337 00:20:46.080 --> 00:20:49.904 for a new day. And then we get into, you know, God give me acceptance 338 00:20:50.125 --> 00:20:53.644 to accept life as it comes. Somebody told me once, this is a great analogy, 339 00:20:53.644 --> 00:20:57.245 that we should hold life like a loose garment. You 340 00:20:57.245 --> 00:21:00.924 know? Something that we don't hold and cling to so tight, but then we kinda 341 00:21:00.924 --> 00:21:04.740 let it ebb and flow. And that ebbing and flowing is a trust 342 00:21:04.740 --> 00:21:08.500 that God's gonna gonna guide us. Now we have our part, you know, but but 343 00:21:08.500 --> 00:21:12.260 it's more a response to God versus us trying to 344 00:21:12.260 --> 00:21:15.495 tell God to come with us. But, yeah, I pray every morning in the car. 345 00:21:15.495 --> 00:21:19.335 I have about a 15 drive to the gym and and just every morning 346 00:21:19.335 --> 00:21:23.015 try to pray of over it. There's a line in your book. My reading app 347 00:21:23.015 --> 00:21:26.795 was telling me that it's one of the most highlighted. And it says life alignment 348 00:21:26.855 --> 00:21:30.215 is about arranging our lives so that the things we invest time 349 00:21:30.215 --> 00:21:33.710 in genuinely reflect values we hold 350 00:21:33.770 --> 00:21:37.610 most dear. Why do you think that's been resonating so deeply? 351 00:21:37.610 --> 00:21:40.410 Why do people keep coming back to that one? You know, you said that to 352 00:21:40.410 --> 00:21:43.370 me, and I was thrilled to hear that. And that's not a line that I 353 00:21:43.370 --> 00:21:47.195 would have expected. Right. Doesn't that always happen though? Like every 354 00:21:47.195 --> 00:21:50.555 sermon you've ever given, you're like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Here's the take home. 355 00:21:50.555 --> 00:21:54.395 And they're like, yeah. I really heard this in your sermon, pastor. Yeah. 356 00:21:54.875 --> 00:21:58.000 You know, I I think that came from 357 00:21:59.179 --> 00:22:03.020 sort of, you know, there's two ways to know what we value in life. 358 00:22:03.020 --> 00:22:06.380 One is to look at our our checkbook and one is to look at our 359 00:22:06.380 --> 00:22:10.184 calendar. And and someone told me that once, and someone told 360 00:22:10.184 --> 00:22:13.105 me that once, and I've used it numerous times in sermons, that if you did 361 00:22:13.105 --> 00:22:16.105 an audit of of the way you spend your money and you did an audit 362 00:22:16.105 --> 00:22:19.705 of the way you spend your time, you'll know what you value in 363 00:22:19.705 --> 00:22:23.465 life. Absolutely. And then I come I come to Jesus saying that that 364 00:22:23.465 --> 00:22:27.210 where your treasure is, there your heart is also. I think 365 00:22:27.210 --> 00:22:30.990 in the twenty first century world, he'd say, where your Google calendar is, 366 00:22:31.049 --> 00:22:34.890 there your heart is also. So, yeah, I if if if you wanna live 367 00:22:34.890 --> 00:22:38.625 a certain way and by certain values, we have to align our life 368 00:22:39.185 --> 00:22:42.805 so that our time reflects those things. Otherwise, we're just 369 00:22:43.665 --> 00:22:47.425 it's idle words. So for me, if I say that 370 00:22:47.425 --> 00:22:48.165 I value, 371 00:22:51.105 --> 00:22:54.860 let's let's let's say that I value I value being 372 00:22:54.860 --> 00:22:58.700 rested, and then I stay up late doom scrolling on my 373 00:22:58.700 --> 00:23:02.540 phone. What have I just done? I've gone against my values. Or 374 00:23:02.540 --> 00:23:06.220 or or I wanna, be an early morning 375 00:23:06.220 --> 00:23:09.935 person, and then I, you know, get get drink at night, you know, and 376 00:23:09.935 --> 00:23:13.395 stay up too late and all this. Like, I'm going against my values 377 00:23:14.735 --> 00:23:18.415 sometimes without even realizing it. So it's just saying if this is what I 378 00:23:18.415 --> 00:23:21.855 value, then let's let's align our lives to follow that. You talk 379 00:23:21.855 --> 00:23:25.490 about this thing in you referred to as margin time within the 380 00:23:25.490 --> 00:23:29.330 book, something that that you value. First, can you explain to us what 381 00:23:29.330 --> 00:23:33.030 margin time is? Yeah. For me, margin time 382 00:23:33.090 --> 00:23:36.850 is how much time do you have that you don't 383 00:23:36.850 --> 00:23:40.605 have something scheduled? I read an article 384 00:23:40.825 --> 00:23:44.045 a few years ago. I think it was a Harvard Business Review article 385 00:23:44.585 --> 00:23:48.265 that said one of the top practices they found of 386 00:23:48.265 --> 00:23:52.009 CEOs of, you know, companies and stuff is what 387 00:23:52.009 --> 00:23:55.529 they called, like, undesignated time. And one guy 388 00:23:55.529 --> 00:23:58.990 described that he'd spend thirty minutes a day just looking out his window. 389 00:23:59.529 --> 00:24:03.289 And they'd go looking out your window doing what? And he'd say nothing. Just 390 00:24:03.289 --> 00:24:07.065 just looking out my window. And so what I try to do with 391 00:24:07.065 --> 00:24:10.825 my time, because again, one of my values is and it's not that I value 392 00:24:10.825 --> 00:24:14.185 margin time, it's that margin gets me to the value that 393 00:24:14.185 --> 00:24:18.025 says, I don't need to be so busy that I have every minute of my 394 00:24:18.025 --> 00:24:21.690 day dictated to me. So I 395 00:24:21.690 --> 00:24:25.370 try to put a little bit, even if it's ten or fifteen minutes between 396 00:24:25.370 --> 00:24:28.750 Zoom calls or between meetings, 397 00:24:30.090 --> 00:24:33.790 I guard my time. You know, short of an emergency, I don't give 398 00:24:33.850 --> 00:24:37.335 certain hours of the day away. My church people know 399 00:24:37.715 --> 00:24:41.395 you may get an email from me very early in the 400 00:24:41.395 --> 00:24:44.695 morning, and that's because I'm a morning person. But I don't take meetings 401 00:24:44.755 --> 00:24:48.595 before 09:30. And the reason I do 402 00:24:48.595 --> 00:24:52.420 that is I value my physical health Mhmm. 403 00:24:52.500 --> 00:24:55.540 And wanna take care of that. And that's when I spend time with my kids 404 00:24:55.540 --> 00:24:59.220 getting them ready for school. And that's a value to me, that being a parent. 405 00:24:59.220 --> 00:25:02.545 And so I'm not gonna give that time away because, you know, there's this thing 406 00:25:02.545 --> 00:25:06.225 that seemingly seems like a big deal and let that tell me how to 407 00:25:06.225 --> 00:25:09.685 dictate my time. Short of an emergency like a life being threatened, 408 00:25:10.545 --> 00:25:14.385 you know, here's the hours I'm available. And then boundary is one of the 409 00:25:14.385 --> 00:25:18.100 most blessed words. I think in the Christian life, how do we set 410 00:25:18.100 --> 00:25:21.700 good boundaries? So I read about margin time 411 00:25:21.700 --> 00:25:25.540 and, we're gonna reveal a little bit of my neuroses here because at 412 00:25:25.540 --> 00:25:29.320 start of every day, I map out the entire day. I mean, 413 00:25:29.575 --> 00:25:33.115 hour by hour. And so within that, I've put in, like, this 414 00:25:33.495 --> 00:25:37.335 as part of my checklist of of times on the day, I put in 415 00:25:37.335 --> 00:25:40.775 margin time and it arrives. And I'm like, I'm not sure I'm doing this right 416 00:25:40.775 --> 00:25:44.440 because it feels like it has become another thing within my day. 417 00:25:44.520 --> 00:25:48.080 Have every hour out? With within my work day, I do. But 418 00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:51.980 well, not not applied to. I mean, I'll I'll build in, you know, 419 00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:56.040 a margin time or a break time or whatever that looks like. But how do 420 00:25:56.040 --> 00:25:59.794 you keep it from, I don't know, not being not feeling a pressure 421 00:25:59.794 --> 00:26:03.554 of something else that you have to do? Yeah. Yeah. The reason I 422 00:26:03.554 --> 00:26:06.595 asked that is because the one thing I I would if I were coaching you, 423 00:26:06.595 --> 00:26:09.495 I would say that's a great practice to be organized, 424 00:26:10.760 --> 00:26:14.460 but you're planning way too much because you're controlling too much of your day. 425 00:26:14.679 --> 00:26:18.440 Okay. And and what would it look like if 426 00:26:18.440 --> 00:26:22.039 you gave up some of that control? Could your soul take 427 00:26:22.039 --> 00:26:25.795 that? Part of what was Well, yeah. I I I have a feeling 428 00:26:25.795 --> 00:26:29.635 that the right answer is yes. Right, Ben? But there's a part of me 429 00:26:29.635 --> 00:26:33.475 that's like The right answer is the honest answer. And and 430 00:26:33.475 --> 00:26:37.315 the authentic answer and and one of the great gifts that 431 00:26:37.315 --> 00:26:41.150 I have worked into in recovery and therapy is to stop 432 00:26:41.150 --> 00:26:44.850 placing value judgments on everything in my life. Mhmm. 433 00:26:44.990 --> 00:26:48.290 You said the right answer. And Oh. That's what I would say too. 434 00:26:48.670 --> 00:26:52.030 Why does it have to be right or wrong? It just is. But I would 435 00:26:52.030 --> 00:26:55.495 guess you're a perfectionist, and you're very 436 00:26:55.495 --> 00:26:58.935 productive, and you get a lot of meaning and purpose out of the fact that 437 00:26:58.935 --> 00:27:02.315 you're able to to to produce and to do. 438 00:27:02.615 --> 00:27:06.295 There's nothing wrong with that. What's healthy though 439 00:27:06.295 --> 00:27:09.740 is to say, at what point am I doing this for 440 00:27:09.740 --> 00:27:13.340 reasons other than the work itself, which is to feed some kinda inner 441 00:27:13.340 --> 00:27:16.940 need? Mhmm. At what point am I doing this at the expense of 442 00:27:16.940 --> 00:27:20.620 something more important? Like, am I taking this meeting 443 00:27:20.620 --> 00:27:24.045 here when it'd be fine to just blow the meeting off and go spend an 444 00:27:24.045 --> 00:27:27.804 hour with my kids? Or something for myself. Or even we're playing a 445 00:27:27.804 --> 00:27:31.325 coaching game here. Or even, like, do you map in time for 446 00:27:31.325 --> 00:27:35.165 you? Mhmm. Mhmm. Because one of the things that I was 447 00:27:35.165 --> 00:27:38.929 so bad and have been so bad about is that my god time is usually 448 00:27:38.990 --> 00:27:42.669 time that I'm giving away. Reading the Bible for 449 00:27:42.669 --> 00:27:46.510 sermon preparation. Yeah. Preparing a Bible. So sometimes I just 450 00:27:46.510 --> 00:27:50.350 need to read the Bible for my own soul. Mhmm. I need to be 451 00:27:50.350 --> 00:27:53.905 as selfish as I can possibly be. Because if I'm not 452 00:27:53.905 --> 00:27:57.345 taking care of myself proactively, guess what happens at least for 453 00:27:57.345 --> 00:28:01.025 me? I become selfish in other ways because 454 00:28:01.025 --> 00:28:04.865 I I don't even realize how resentful I'm getting for how 455 00:28:04.865 --> 00:28:08.650 much I'm giving away to everybody else. And then for me, that's why 456 00:28:08.650 --> 00:28:12.250 I'm gonna sit down and have a couple drinks tonight. Mhmm. Because I 457 00:28:12.250 --> 00:28:15.610 deserve it. Maybe let go of some of that. Alright. Alright. No 458 00:28:15.610 --> 00:28:19.290 schedule will be written tomorrow. We'll just You can make a schedule, but be 459 00:28:19.450 --> 00:28:23.205 make it looser. I walk my dog. And so what I do is I get 460 00:28:23.205 --> 00:28:26.645 out and walk for fifteen minutes. And and just those few 461 00:28:26.645 --> 00:28:30.245 minutes, podcasts are your friends, something you enjoy, get one of those 462 00:28:30.245 --> 00:28:34.005 wrestling podcasts we talked about or something. Think about fifteen minutes 463 00:28:34.005 --> 00:28:37.200 of it or or an audio book. I don't know. Just something to 464 00:28:37.679 --> 00:28:41.200 breathe in the glory of God. Well, you wrote this book because you had 465 00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:44.820 experienced a a sense of transformation leading into it. 466 00:28:45.120 --> 00:28:48.880 Was there a part of the writing process that brought 467 00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:52.595 some things up for you or brought some, in a sense, connection 468 00:28:52.595 --> 00:28:56.135 or enlightenment? Oh, yeah. It was a very cathartic experience. 469 00:28:56.435 --> 00:29:00.275 I was sad when I finished the manuscript. I felt like I was 470 00:29:00.275 --> 00:29:04.035 sending my child off to kindergarten and, you know, by by sending it to the 471 00:29:04.035 --> 00:29:07.820 fellowship. Because every morning, I was I was kinda alternating some writing 472 00:29:07.820 --> 00:29:11.660 time and with gym time. And a lot of mornings at 05:00 instead of 473 00:29:11.660 --> 00:29:15.040 the gym, I was I was writing and thinking and reflecting 474 00:29:15.580 --> 00:29:19.420 and writing chapters that made me cry. May not make anyone else cry, but it 475 00:29:19.420 --> 00:29:23.095 made me. James Howell told me recently, and I love this line. He said that 476 00:29:23.095 --> 00:29:26.935 he found that writing was really for him, and if you wanted to 477 00:29:26.935 --> 00:29:30.775 look over his shoulder and get something out of it, great. And that was that 478 00:29:30.775 --> 00:29:34.215 was a a lot of my experience that this book really was for 479 00:29:34.215 --> 00:29:37.920 me, to just unload this cathartic experience. And if if a 480 00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:41.700 reader can pick it up and get something, what a gift. I love that. 481 00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:44.980 Yeah. I mean, I thought a lot about a difficult childhood. 482 00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:49.360 I thought a lot about the man that I wanna be. I wrote a whole 483 00:29:49.360 --> 00:29:52.915 chapter on fatherhood and and manhood because I think I 484 00:29:52.915 --> 00:29:56.675 think this notion of hypermasculinity is 485 00:29:56.675 --> 00:30:00.195 one of the worst things that is that is victimizing and taking 486 00:30:00.195 --> 00:30:03.810 advantage of young men in our country. Because boys are 487 00:30:03.810 --> 00:30:07.490 being told that things like feelings are enemies Yeah. A 488 00:30:07.490 --> 00:30:11.170 lot. They're God's gift. And so 489 00:30:11.170 --> 00:30:14.610 what you have are overgrown little boys who are who 490 00:30:14.610 --> 00:30:18.145 are coming into adulthood and running the world, who 491 00:30:18.145 --> 00:30:21.445 think that being a man is about exerting strength, 492 00:30:22.705 --> 00:30:26.065 when they forget that the strongest thing we can do is be 493 00:30:26.065 --> 00:30:28.805 vulnerable and self giving 494 00:30:30.385 --> 00:30:34.179 and compassionate. So yeah. Yeah. All of that was 495 00:30:34.179 --> 00:30:37.860 just so important for me. Well, for folks who maybe want to hear more 496 00:30:37.860 --> 00:30:41.540 of of what you're doing, is there a convenient spot online for them to look 497 00:30:41.540 --> 00:30:45.380 you up? Yeah. So my publicist, told me that I have 498 00:30:45.380 --> 00:30:49.165 not done a good job at bengosdencoaching,uh,.com 499 00:30:49.165 --> 00:30:52.765 is out there and that is where I do I've started doing a little bit 500 00:30:52.765 --> 00:30:56.045 of consulting and coaching work whether it's one on one coaching which I love. I 501 00:30:56.045 --> 00:30:59.245 mean, I use kind of a 12 step approach with people for whatever it is 502 00:30:59.245 --> 00:31:01.659 that they wanna make a life change about. But I've done a little bit of 503 00:31:01.659 --> 00:31:05.340 business coaching. I love working with churches. So any way that we can 504 00:31:05.340 --> 00:31:08.880 can come along and journey alongside some, transformation 505 00:31:09.100 --> 00:31:12.620 is great. So there and then social media is at b 506 00:31:12.620 --> 00:31:16.435 Gosden, g o s d e n, on Facebook or Instagram. Ben, thank you 507 00:31:16.435 --> 00:31:19.555 so much for spending this time with us and for sharing your story with us. 508 00:31:19.555 --> 00:31:23.235 Thank you, Ryan. Appreciate you always. Well, 509 00:31:23.235 --> 00:31:27.015 that brings us to the end of this episode. A big thank you again 510 00:31:27.075 --> 00:31:30.830 to Ben Gosden for sharing his story with us. If you found 511 00:31:30.830 --> 00:31:34.590 today's conversation as inspiring as I did, then I 512 00:31:34.590 --> 00:31:36.750 invite you to visit our website at 513 00:31:36.750 --> 00:31:40.110 umc.org/compass. There you'll find 514 00:31:40.110 --> 00:31:43.810 detailed episode notes and more episodes to explore 515 00:31:43.870 --> 00:31:45.650 on your journey to finding spirituality 516 00:31:50.325 --> 00:31:53.765 incredible team at United Methodist Communications for making this 517 00:31:53.765 --> 00:31:57.125 podcast possible. Your dedication and hard work behind the 518 00:31:57.125 --> 00:32:00.745 scenes allow us to bring you meaningful stories and insights 519 00:32:01.260 --> 00:32:05.020 every other Wednesday, which is when new episodes of Compass come out. If 520 00:32:05.020 --> 00:32:08.540 you haven't already done so, please consider again subscribing to 521 00:32:08.540 --> 00:32:12.000 Compass Finding Spirituality in the Everyday. Your subscriptions, 522 00:32:12.300 --> 00:32:16.075 ratings, and reviews mean the world to us, and they 523 00:32:16.075 --> 00:32:19.375 help others find the podcast and join our growing community. 524 00:32:19.835 --> 00:32:23.195 If you want more compass right now, well, check out episode number 525 00:32:23.195 --> 00:32:26.490 145, contentment and connecting with all life. 526 00:32:27.050 --> 00:32:30.730 Another super cool episode of transformation is number one thirty nine, 527 00:32:30.730 --> 00:32:34.570 from hate to hope. That's with my friend, Neely Hicks. Thank 528 00:32:34.570 --> 00:32:38.110 you again for tuning in and being a part of our Compass journey. 529 00:32:38.410 --> 00:32:41.945 Until next time, stay curious and open to grace and 530 00:32:41.945 --> 00:32:45.245 spirituality that surrounds us in our everyday lives. 531 00:32:45.385 --> 00:32:45.885 Peace.