Welcome to Compass, finding spirituality in the everyday. My name
is Ryan Dunn. Today, we're joined by Tamice
Spencer Helms, a thinker and innovator in the realm of spirituality
and faith. This episode is all about spiritual mix taping, which is
pulling together the intricate tapestry of faith, culture, and
personal identity. Tamice shares with us their unique
metaphor of the rest mix tape, which is a fusion
of radical, ethical, spiritual, and
tethered practices that serve as a guide for navigating
our increasingly complex world. Tamice also takes us back to
the historical roots of Hush Harbors, which offer fresh
insights on creating safe, inclusive spaces in
today's communities of faith. Timmy Spencer Helms is a theologian,
public speaker, curriculum developer, and consultant with
over two decades of experience in young adult leadership, spiritual
innovation, and social change, and Timmy's brings a deep
well of wisdom to their work. So join us as we uncover
how embracing human complexity, reexamining
traditional narratives, and stitching together the valuable parts of
the past can can lead to a richer, more holistic
spiritual life. Whether you're questioning faith, exploring
spiritual intersections, or seeking a contemporary lens
through which to view ancient wisdom, this episode
of Compass is guiding you towards a
spiritual grounding and growth. Let's go.
Tamice, we're so glad to have you on the Compass podcast. How goes it with
your soul today? My soul is well. It is looking
back and remembering right now. Ah. So there
Well, we're gonna get into all of that. We're gonna talk about things
like hush harbors and R. E.
S. T. And both R. E. S. T. And the acronym R. E. S. T.
And mix tapes, which, for me is something looking back
or nostalgic as being a Gen Xer. Mix tapes were a
big part of at least my formulative years.
It's a way that my friends and I communicated with each other. Whenever I was
putting together a mixtape, I was thinking about
sharing these with other people.
So with that in mind, before we even get into the
metaphor that you're using mix tapes for now in the current context,
like, what would be on your mix tape if we're sharing
something of yourself with our audience? What are you putting on it for?
Okay. So there's always gonna be some Lauryn Hill. Alright.
Alright. My miseducation. There'll be a couple of tracks from that. There will
always be Kendrick. There will always be
something from Frankie Beverly, because I just really
connects me to my family and my parents and kind of cookout culture.
Yeah. So it'll be a little bit of feel good, a little bit of angst,
a little bit of God, a little bit of truth telling, all wrapped
up in one. So I think that's beyond it, but definitely
x factor from from miseducation is gonna be on there. Okay. Right. I'm
well, bringing it forward to today, you're working
in kind of an online program, online community
called rest mixtape. Rest is an acronym and mixtape.
Talk to us a little bit about the mixtape aspect. Like, why is that
kind of the organizing metaphor or the ideal that you're
bringing into this community? It's a really good question. I think,
really, I think part of what I experienced in sort
of the my upbringing in in Western faith
constructs was a real sense of outsourced intuition.
And so when I was seeking to kind of recover that and recover my own
intuition, recover agency when it came to faith and and the ways that I
was naming divine reality. The mixtape just popped up because it's
such an intuitive curation. I don't ask questions
when I'm creating a mixtape, whether or not the selections are good, whether or
not people should hear the the song. I think they should. There's that, there's
a real, cool thing when you're curating something like a
mixtape that kind of helps you to kind of bypass the
typical self doubt. And I think
using a mixtape as a methodology for what we do
about an increasingly post Christian world, is a helpful way
for people to not feel so, daunted by the task of
figuring out what we do now, or or, you know, intimidated
by that task, but really thinking about how do we mix tape
the best things, the things that we wanna keep, the things that we
want to remember, the things that we want to bring in. How do we curate
that, from our wisdom traditions and from, the things that
move us? And so I don't know. I just felt like when I was working
on my doctorate, I had come up with sort of,
what I've started calling these, like, sort of beautiful boundary lines that
have fallen to me in pleasant places. And that kind of came of
this acronym that was also kind of manifesting in my life as
rest. And so it kind of was like, well, how did I get here? The
way I got here was a sort of a mixtape methodology. And so I just
started to kind of talk about it as the rest
mix tape. Tell me a little bit about what you mean by outsourced intuition.
Because I feel like a lot of us feel that in
spaces of faith. So I'd love for you to put some flesh onto that.
Yeah. I mean, I think it's it's a it's a real,
well, when someone's, intuition is outsourced, you can get
them to a lot, because they don't have a a reference
point for truth that is within themselves. And so I think
that really, probably the most I don't wanna say controversial. I I mean, I hope
it's not controversial. I think it's I think it's you and Gallion,
but, I hope it's not controversial. But one of the things that I am
troubling with the mixtape is the notion of depravity. Because the notion
of depravity is what leads someone to outsource their knowing.
And, I think that that's what's happening in in the origin stories,
that kind of set the stage for the rest of Christianity. And so I feel
like we have to go back there. Right? Go back to the garden and figure
out what is really being asked here and what is really happening in the
story. I know that for me, particularly,
Genesis three was used to, identify
my sin nature, that this was the fall of sin and that my nature was
sinful and it's because of what happened in this garden. But, you know, in
my excavation process, I go back and look and sin is nowhere in the garden.
Sin doesn't come until Cain and Abel. So something else is happening here.
And that's what started to make me think about what are the questions being
asked, what are the answers and the actions that are happening
in this story, and and what else might we see here, that could help
us? Because I've I've looked at sort of the fruit of what people believing
in their own depravity does, And it it really causes
people to act depraved. Right? Like, there's
no, you don't have an option. You know, it's it's an identity that
has been conferred onto you, and you
have no choice about that. And so that
that's troubling, I think, for people. And so how do you navigate the world
when yourself is not trustworthy? You have to outsource. But then
that means that you're being led by something. And what the rest of theixtape does
is say, what is the something, and do you want that to be leading you?
Yeah. Okay. And the idea of depravity is is simply
this idea that, like, human beings at our core were
just, like, dirty sinful beings. Okay.
Right. And I think one of the things that I I think makes the mixtape
process so cool is that, I grounded in
black cultural creativity, as a sacred text because you're
dealing with a lived a lived experience of
people who had an identity conferred onto them, who
confounded everybody, who conferred that in that identity onto
them. I mean, to be an objection, to be told that you are not human,
to be told that you are an animal, and to create
the black church and music and art and poetry and
families and food and culture, that is
confounding to the logic. And I think that, that what
we need right now is to learn from people who have like, kind
sense of self that was wretched, right. In order for Black people to do anything
in this country. And so I think, you know, I get the permission, right. I
get the permission to trouble these texts, from people who who
proved, the interpretation of those texts incorrect.
Do you think with a mix set mindset
mix tape mindset, sorry, that in a
way we're we're able I don't know if it's fair to say that we're able
to redeem some voices from the past, but we're able to, like,
lift out the valuable, while still recognizing the
negative. Because I gotta admit, like, you know, there are a lot of people that
had some ideas that I might find
valuable today, but also, said
some repulsive or heinous things. Yeah. Like And I
think that's the best way. Right? Like, I think, you know, with my lived experience
of a person who, is constantly feeling like I'm living on the
edge of institutions because of just who I am as a person,
it's a really interesting thing to think about. Like, even that impulse,
the either or impulse, the, the binary impulse is not natural to
me. What's natural to me is to think about what can work. Is there
a third way? What can we keep? You know, sometimes people are,
are amazing and also jerks in the same
day, you know? And, and so we need ethical
framing, and, and, and religious containers that hold
space for human complexity. But when you're either good or
bad, either saved or lost, you really don't
give room for people to think about their own human complexity. And so then you
don't give people the opportunity to change. And that creates
shame. Right? Like, and I I think about how this plays out, not just in,
like, Christian circles, but in cancel culture, right? Like you, you
know, what is the nature of perfection? Which again, takes us back to that garden
scene. What do you even mean by perfect? What does God mean when God
says be perfect, design perfect? We need to re ask these questions
using a logic that doesn't come from binary thinking because we all
see that nothing is this or that. A lot of times things are both and,
or yes and, or no not yet, you know,
that's life. And so we need constructs that make sense of
life, which is what the e in the rest mix tape does. The ethical
relationality there tries to think about ethics that are based
in sort of a non duality, a sense of like life is
complicated and liminal. And so our ethical choices need to take
that into account. And what that does is it really, it makes it
so that people believe other people can change, right? You live in the
world with an orientation that people are not
depraved and most people, if given the right opportunities and
given the right information are willing to change. And I've been testing this in my
travels, and when I've been in scenarios with people that I would
typically not talk to, I will test this and it works.
Okay. The idea of perfection is
scintillating to me, just because I I
I maybe I have some perfectionist tendencies. It's like I always want
things to be just right. And in fact, a lot of times I'll I'll keep
myself from doing things because, you know,
my anticipated outcome is not gonna be that of
perfection. So, for people like me, how
are you thinking about perfection these days? Oh,
man. I'm thinking about perfection as a process. Yeah. And so
that automatically takes a lot of pressure off. And
so when we think about perfection in scripture, you know
Matthew five forty eight be perfect as I am
perfect. Some other people I think Peter might
render it you know be holy as I'm holy. We've got to ask what does
God mean by holy? So we would hear the question. We
would hear the response. Holy means different, set apart,
unlike what you see. Okay. So what do you see about Jesus that makes him
different from the people he sees? He's present to the moment.
He goes with the flow. He's there.
Raw incarnate presence. Fully there.
Fully there. I mean, present, not dissociated. Here.
Presence and perfection are one in the same to me. To be fully
present, flaws and all, but willing to
change is perfect. I can I need to be on the edge of becoming? That's
what perfection is. It's it's an acknowledgment that I'm fully here and I'm okay
right here, and also there is more, and I'm open to that. It's a
it's a it's a way to stand and live in the world,
that makes you different from, folks who are who
are buying into the logic of caste and empire,
who are believing this logic, who are and though most of those
people are angry, they they kinda feel like I keep picturing that woman in the
scriptures who's, like, bent over for all those years. Right? That kind
of a logic and that kind of a framing of perfection, leads to
despondency. And and it's odd to
me that, as we think about our our social landscape right
now, like, the despondency and the despair from people
who say they've been perfected in God. How does
that work? So again, we you know,
it's not to throw the things out. It's to reexamine them. This word is
living. This word was said
to be living. So that means it it moves, it grows,
it breathes. And I think that we just need what the rest mixtape
is is a container for the living word, to go with us
into into these new frontiers of faith. And, you know, you and I
talk a lot about technology and, you know, all of that kind of stuff.
So that's what I do. Yeah. I feel
like we're we're ready to talk about rest, and
not not just rest in in terms of, like,
Sabbath or taking it easy for a little bit, but the the acronym that you've
looked it up as part of your practice. Can you can can you give us
what that acronym stands for and a little bit about those those principles?
Yeah. Thank you for asking. Yeah. So the r e s
t, rest, it stands for radical, ethical,
spirituality that is tethered. And, what I mean
by radical there is naming what's real, telling the truth. For
someone who, was given, a vision of a
Christ who held no space for my lived experience,
there wasn't a lot of truth telling in the foundation of my
faith. And so it disappointed me. So I put that
back into the way I do my faith. It has to tell the truth,
tell the truth about the world I'm really living in. Right. And tell the truth
about who I really am. Like, hey. There's some ways I need to come up
in this area. Right? So we we gotta start with truth telling. It can't
just be the truth about out there and also needs to be about what am
I contributing to what's out there. Right? From there, we go to ethical.
Ethical. Right? So radical ethics is about non duality that,
you know, I've I've I've this came by way of the East. Right?
And by way of of of ancestral understandings of Ubuntu
and utter nonseparateness that comes from people like, you you know, that
comes from like Advada Vedanta and people like Roman Panikkar
who talks about, cosmotheandric spirituality, this reality that all
things are one. And I get the permission to
add this from Christian scriptures. In first Corinthians
15, it's 28, Paul is laying out. So we
say, we would say that, you know, Christians believe the thing that makes you a
Christian is what you believe about resurrection. Right? You believe that Christ is risen
from the dead. And so resurrection is a
key component of any kind of conversations we have about Christianity.
So let's have them, right? And so in the chapter
about resurrection, you have Paul in, in, in verse
28 who says, and then comes the end. He paints
this picture of of, you know, these kingdoms being sort of submitted
and surrendered to the father. And then it says, and the last enemy to
be defeated is death. Once that enemy is defeated, the
son is made submissive to the father and and then the kingdom is
made submissive to the father and God is all in all. What Paul is
describing here is some sort of enfolding, and
coming back into oneness that I only see reflected in Eastern
traditions. I've never heard anybody from Christianity talk about this
passage, but if the last enemy to be defeated in first
Corinthians 28 is death, that means that the end of Christianity is not
heaven. Revelation ends with death,
right? Paul is going the end of Christianity is not actually heaven. It's
this utter nonsense, it's first Corinthians 15, it's God is all in all. That's where
this thing is actually going. God is all in all. Now that
puts us in a different starting point for thinking about how we share about our
faith, how we communicate our faith, how defensive we
are about our faith. If that's where it's going, why don't
Christians start there and work backwards? We don't have to advocate Jesus. We don't have
to advocate anything. What we do let go of is supremacy,
exclusivism, which is colonial, not Christian.
Right? So, so that's the ethics. The spirituality
piece is sacred smallness, right? This
idea that like, small in a good way. Like
I've been made to feel small in religious spaces, not that kind of small.
I mean small in a good way and the only way I could describe it
was when we were in San Francisco and I told you about it when we
were at the Presidio that I walked up to this tree
and it literally took my breath away. And the reality of it
was I didn't, it was unmediated,
it was uncontrollable. And I'm like, oh, that was
worship. That the beauty and the majesty and
the ancient nature of this tree, the fact that it is
still here, that it is seen in thousands of years of history.
It is here and it is standing and it is vast. And I, I looked
at that and I was like, oh, this is what they meant. This is what
they mean by awe and wonder and worship. It pulled it out of
me. It wasn't everybody lift your hands now, we're going to
worship, lift your hands to the Lord. It wasn't compulsory. It wasn't
give him what you got because you owe him or, you know, he's worthy
of it. Give him the glory because you you better. It was like,
woah. What is that? That is beautiful. You can't do
anything but fall face down. Now, anybody that I've seen encounter God in
scripture has that reaction, typically. And so
it was like, oh, this is what is meant by spirituality. Now what I call
it is the T. What I call it is tradition. The
tradition is the language that we get that connect us to place and
ancestry and story of survival and resistance.
Language is important. On the one hand, when you
think about spirituality, it can coexist, right? Like if God is all in all, then
everything is language. It's It's just what you call it. And
on the other hand, traditionally, it matters what you call it because it connects
you to a people in a place and that can be very anchoring. So in
between the radical truth telling and the tethering to wisdom and place
and tradition is this ethical spirituality that gets to get worked out
because times change, and we change. And that's kind of it in
a nutshell. And like the mixtape portion again is me bringing
in film and scripture and stories, to kind
of demonstrate ways of doing this, ways
we can trouble some of the way some of the logic we've inherited, and then
some paths forward as well, examples of how people are walking this out. That's it
in a nutshell. Yeah. When you're talking about troubling some of the
things that we've inherited, as you've started this
program, you're working with some people and almost in like a coaching or
mentoring relationship. What are some
of the issues that, that you run up
against consistently? Like, what needs troubling?
I think, you know, honestly, Ryan, what's troubling is the fear
of, embracing other ways of knowing and being.
So I think for me as someone who's pastoral,
I am trying to think of
ways to get people across that threshold of
invulnerability and fear, because
that threshold in and of itself is the threshold to God.
And so I think for me working with young people, it really is
about how do I not repeat what happened to me,
in terms of, like, feeling like I had was forced to believe to belong.
How do I not repeat what happened to me in other ways, which was, like,
what I did believe was seen as stupid or,
archaic or silly. The best way I've
found doing it has been the music. So what we
do is we will do circles and they'll they'll everybody will submit a
playlist and, you know, I'll have a prompt. So the most
recent one we did, I I had a prompt and the prompt was, you know,
put a song in the playlist that sums you up. And they
did. And, we played them and people had to guess,
you know, whose whose song was what. So So then the person would
reveal themselves and talk about why and how. And then we would
talk about we borrow from Dory Baker's, Live to Tell model.
And so then we would kind of do that storytelling. It's a little bit different,
but it borrows from that. And then they would start to talk about what the
song means and where it comes from. And then you know as the
pastor I do the part of like where do you see something radical here? Where
do you see something ethical here? What from your tradition does this remind you
of? What what does this, you know, what does this have to say about God
and the spirit? And in that way, they're having spiritual
conversations that feel tethered because it's their music. They pick
the track. Right? And it's a really beautiful way to not
only excavate, like, how are people naming God right now?
Because me with more experience and degrees, I go, oh, that's epistemological
frameworks or, oh, you know, that's you're, oh, that's so symbiosis.
And they're like, yes, of course. And, yeah. You know, I mean, I can translate
it back. I will never force the language on them,
because that's not how it works. Language has to be conjured if God wants
to be remembered. And so I really think that that's a good way to
get around that is like, how do we identify,
right? When we're talking to young people, our job is not to
make them say what we want them to say. Our job is to
find out how, what they're saying is what we want them to say.
Right? Our job is to do the translation work. Our job
as shepherds is to think about how do we lead to green pasture?
How do we make lie down? Not how do we make
confess certain doctrinal truths? And I think
my work at subculture was a response to that because it was
like working in campus ministry was all about counting conversions, but my
students, I wanted more than that for them. I wanted them to self
actualize. I wanted them to name God, like give God a name,
like Hagar, you know, like, that's gonna be important for
you. Is it just the God of my campus minister?
Is it the God who sees me? That's gonna change
how you live your day to day, whether you gave God the name or somebody
else did. You know? So I think, you know, thinking about young people in that
regard and letting them name God, it's okay.
If God is all in all, there is no name that's wrong. And we
see that trajectory from Genesis 11 to Acts two.
Right? DEI is a divine agenda, not a left
one. Okay? When folks are
are joining into the, the rest mixtape, do
they have, are they able to name for
themselves, like, a desired outcome? Are they joining for a specific
reason? Yeah. So the people who join the mixtape right now are subculture
fellows, because we're we're, you know, we're piloting it. Yeah.
But, yeah, for the most part, they joined the fellows because they
wanted robust support as they try to navigate college. And
so what the fellows program does is they get they get a savings account, they
get a monthly living expense stipend, they get a well of wisdom which is a
person that is in their 60s or so that they track with, they get a
success coach, but then they also get access to like going through the mixtape every
week. So we do weekly, like gatherings, we do retreats
together, learning journeys. So they're signing up for that. And I think, you
know, what I love about subcultures programming is that it thinks
about self actualization. It inverts the pyramid. And it says, well, if we
prioritize that, what are the things we need to build so that they can actually
sit in a room and think about who is God to me? And and how
do I walk out a radical ethical spirituality that's still tethered to my tradition?
So I don't feel lost out here in the waves. I mean, 2025 is
wild. Mhmm. They're gonna need anchoring. And I think,
you know, what I'm offering comes from a perspective of
somebody who had to create an anchor. Because I think there
are people who are Finnish, who are, you know, spiritual and not religious, but a
lot of times those people haven't, done the radical truth
telling part. So they haven't excavated the colonial impulse to just abandon tradition.
That's actually what colonization is. It is an abandonment of
tradition to just take, take, take, take, take, and leave things in the
wake. That's not what people of color do. We keep things
to remember, that remind us of place. And so to be
spiritual and not religious can sometimes be very ambient
and ethereal and, like, not anchored. But if it's not
anchored, it really can't lead well. And we're in times right
now. We need people who can lead us who are anchored somewhere.
I think that's just important to say. This is not
a time to not say that. You know? Yeah. Mhmm. Lisa
said. Are are people
coming because, well, are they coming from a, like, a
traditional Christian background and they're looking for something
different? Or Yeah. That's a great question. So for the folks that went
through the focus group, and that was all, practitioners.
So practitioners, you know, from the new evangelicals to, like, people
doing church work in rural America, to people who
are, you know, to Starlet who's doing raceless
gospel. Right? We've got people who were who are
doing, trips. My sister-in-law, Alyssa Ann Travels, is doing
trips. I mean, there was a bunch of different types of perspectives on this call
because I wanted to know, like, how do we
how does this sound? How is this landing? Those
folks were coming in with with Christian,
leadership perspective, I would say. Right? So the
conversation in that class is different than the conversation I have
with my student my Black black students. My black students,
I'm not gonna mess I'm not gonna trouble much, because it's not
helpful. That's gonna be dysregulating for them. What I'm going to do is just ask
them some questions, like, questions essentially like Jesus asked, which
is, what did the scripture say? How do you read them?
And then we go from there. Right? And so for
them, it's not so much about them not be
wanting to get rid of their Christianity for people of color, like, you
know, especially, you know, Black people in America, Christianity
is a survival mechanism. It's a harder thing to let go of,
because so much identity formation took place in the Black church and
affirmation took place in the Black Black church. Yes, wounding. But
there's but it's a comp a more complicated conversation. And so I wouldn't
have that conversation with in that context, like I would
with like leaders and practitioners who are thinking about the future of faith. Right? So
it just depends on who's gathered, like, how deeply we go into each of
the elements. Okay.
In speaking with you, well, through our many conversations, something that
you you consistently bring up to me is
the idea of hush harbors. Yes. Can
you talk to us a little bit about that? And specifically, like,
the place of hush harbors in today's
society and, like, how communities of faith can start
to live into that kind of safe environment. Yes. I just I'm
I'm feeling so much deep gratitude for,
the ancient black spiritual technology of the
Harbor. I think that that technology can be mapped onto other
things. I'm trying to do an app right now that is, like, actually encoding a
Hush Harbor. But I think deeply about
what is the nerve that drove these people to carve
out a clearing. Mhmm. Amidst of all of that
literal darkness, I mean, they would they would
when you think about what this thing was,
it's profound. These people from all of these different tribes
in Africa who had been trafficked, sold a lie, trafficked,
put on boats with people they didn't know, who didn't speak their language. I
mean, locked up together with people you never met before.
That that would be like somebody coming to your house and throwing you into a
van with a neighbor you've never talked to who speaks a different language and made
y'all made 15 of y'all get into a sedan. Okay? So that's what I
want you to feel. So these people are brought
together in trauma and trafficking and they come to this
land. They don't know the land. The people who do know the land have
been pushed out of it. And they come here, they're
forced to work, ripped from their families,
violently treated, dehumanized, and
somehow somehow
they follow what Aoife calls the feeling. You know? We could call it
the spirit. Everybody calls it something different. They follow this
impulse to get free. It's a it's an
impulse. It's an orientation to life. It's an impulse towards freedom.
And and so what they did, the way that it manifested was they
would sneak out in the middle of the night and you just had
to know where to go. You had to follow the feeling. And they would come
upon this, a lot of times it was like a marsh area
where it would be wooded and swampy and dark, and they
would go out there and they would chant in their language. They would
dance. They would and sing. They
would prophesy. They would preach. In,
Toni Morrison's book, Beloved, Baby Silves Holy, she says, you
know, love your hands, lift them up. You
know, she is declaring you are good, you are not
depraved. And in that space of
fugitivity, they carved out a name
for God. They carved out a culture.
Out of all of these different tribes came Black
culture, out of this spiritual fugitivity. Now
the Hush Harbor started first. After
that, you know, as they get more and more proximity to to learning the like
they learn to read by leading the reading the Bible and things like that. So
of course, now you begin to institutionalize. Right? And so the
hush harbor though, it needs to be said is the foundation for the Black
church. And that matters for people like me with queer identity because the
Black church is not always welcoming to people like me. So I needed a
deeper root, that let me keep the Black
spiritual technology that has all my grandparents'
stories connected to it and all my ancestors' stories connected to it, but
didn't require me to show up in fractions. And so the Hush Armor would be
a really beautiful technology, I think, for today, as we think about
fugitivity and carving out a clearing, where we
can be free. The spirit of God is an orientation to freedom.
It is an orientation to life. That is why the message of God is
resurrection. You can't kill life. And, and that is a
witness that takes place in every sphere, whether it is a dying
star to a tree, to to the skin on when we
get a cut. Resurrection is a fact of life. Jesus
embodies that as a first century Jewish rabbi, but it's it's not
unique to him. It's everywhere. What is first what is, for Romans
one say? What can be known about god is seen in the
cosmos and in nature? So the
story of resurrection is a fact. That's what gives us courage. That's what gives
Jesus courage to be nonviolent. You can't kill life.
Well, we're coming to the close of our
time, Tamice. But, for people who want to learn more about,
either who you are or some of the programs
that you're involved in, where's a good spot to catch up with you? You can
find me at tamise namay speaks dot com. That's like, I
think the the distillery, I guess. I'm showing up in a couple of different ways,
and you can find them all in that that space. Awesome. Well, Tamice, thank
you so much for sharing your program with us, your ideas, and,
and, you know, for the invitation to show up in some
spaces, without that sense of fractionalization, like, that's gonna stick
with me for a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm starting I meant to tell
you this. I am there's a course just went live on my site, and it's
called the Faith Unleavened Seminar. And it will start on March.
And it's a it's a class. It's a real class to kinda do this gently
and to do it well with people who are wanting to do it in a
safe environment, with someone who who, has figured out
an anchor. Well, that brings us to the end of another enlightening
episode of Compass, finding spirituality in the everyday. A big
thank you again to our guest, Denise Spencer Helms, for sharing your insights
on the rest mix tape and the transformative power of spiritual
technology. And And for our listeners, if you want to dive deeper
into today's conversation or explore more episodes,
be sure to visit our website at
umc.org/compass. There you'll find episode
notes and just a treasure trove of meaningful discussions
to to guide your spiritual journey. We're grateful to the dedicated
team at United Methodist communications for making this podcast
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well and find the sacred. I need you every day. Peace.