WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:04.480 Welcome to Compass, finding spirituality in the everyday. My name 2 00:00:04.480 --> 00:00:07.620 is Ryan Dunn. Today, we're joined by Tamice 3 00:00:07.839 --> 00:00:11.620 Spencer Helms, a thinker and innovator in the realm of spirituality 4 00:00:11.840 --> 00:00:15.360 and faith. This episode is all about spiritual mix taping, which is 5 00:00:15.360 --> 00:00:19.135 pulling together the intricate tapestry of faith, culture, and 6 00:00:19.135 --> 00:00:22.755 personal identity. Tamice shares with us their unique 7 00:00:22.974 --> 00:00:26.755 metaphor of the rest mix tape, which is a fusion 8 00:00:26.895 --> 00:00:30.335 of radical, ethical, spiritual, and 9 00:00:30.335 --> 00:00:33.899 tethered practices that serve as a guide for navigating 10 00:00:34.120 --> 00:00:37.879 our increasingly complex world. Tamice also takes us back to 11 00:00:37.879 --> 00:00:41.320 the historical roots of Hush Harbors, which offer fresh 12 00:00:41.320 --> 00:00:44.815 insights on creating safe, inclusive spaces in 13 00:00:44.815 --> 00:00:48.595 today's communities of faith. Timmy Spencer Helms is a theologian, 14 00:00:49.055 --> 00:00:52.655 public speaker, curriculum developer, and consultant with 15 00:00:52.655 --> 00:00:56.115 over two decades of experience in young adult leadership, spiritual 16 00:00:56.175 --> 00:00:59.950 innovation, and social change, and Timmy's brings a deep 17 00:00:59.950 --> 00:01:03.250 well of wisdom to their work. So join us as we uncover 18 00:01:03.390 --> 00:01:06.690 how embracing human complexity, reexamining 19 00:01:07.070 --> 00:01:10.909 traditional narratives, and stitching together the valuable parts of 20 00:01:10.909 --> 00:01:14.375 the past can can lead to a richer, more holistic 21 00:01:14.515 --> 00:01:18.215 spiritual life. Whether you're questioning faith, exploring 22 00:01:18.355 --> 00:01:22.115 spiritual intersections, or seeking a contemporary lens 23 00:01:22.115 --> 00:01:25.495 through which to view ancient wisdom, this episode 24 00:01:25.955 --> 00:01:29.330 of Compass is guiding you towards a 25 00:01:29.330 --> 00:01:32.230 spiritual grounding and growth. Let's go. 26 00:01:36.130 --> 00:01:39.410 Tamice, we're so glad to have you on the Compass podcast. How goes it with 27 00:01:39.410 --> 00:01:42.795 your soul today? My soul is well. It is looking 28 00:01:42.795 --> 00:01:46.235 back and remembering right now. Ah. So there 29 00:01:47.355 --> 00:01:50.575 Well, we're gonna get into all of that. We're gonna talk about things 30 00:01:50.795 --> 00:01:54.480 like hush harbors and R. E. 31 00:01:54.480 --> 00:01:57.600 S. T. And both R. E. S. T. And the acronym R. E. S. T. 32 00:01:57.600 --> 00:02:01.440 And mix tapes, which, for me is something looking back 33 00:02:01.440 --> 00:02:05.200 or nostalgic as being a Gen Xer. Mix tapes were a 34 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:08.905 big part of at least my formulative years. 35 00:02:08.905 --> 00:02:12.265 It's a way that my friends and I communicated with each other. Whenever I was 36 00:02:12.265 --> 00:02:15.245 putting together a mixtape, I was thinking about 37 00:02:16.105 --> 00:02:18.765 sharing these with other people. 38 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:23.599 So with that in mind, before we even get into the 39 00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:26.739 metaphor that you're using mix tapes for now in the current context, 40 00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:30.959 like, what would be on your mix tape if we're sharing 41 00:02:30.959 --> 00:02:34.500 something of yourself with our audience? What are you putting on it for? 42 00:02:34.835 --> 00:02:38.435 Okay. So there's always gonna be some Lauryn Hill. Alright. 43 00:02:38.435 --> 00:02:42.035 Alright. My miseducation. There'll be a couple of tracks from that. There will 44 00:02:42.035 --> 00:02:45.635 always be Kendrick. There will always be 45 00:02:45.635 --> 00:02:49.395 something from Frankie Beverly, because I just really 46 00:02:49.395 --> 00:02:52.860 connects me to my family and my parents and kind of cookout culture. 47 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:56.760 Yeah. So it'll be a little bit of feel good, a little bit of angst, 48 00:02:56.760 --> 00:03:00.600 a little bit of God, a little bit of truth telling, all wrapped 49 00:03:00.600 --> 00:03:03.980 up in one. So I think that's beyond it, but definitely 50 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:08.185 x factor from from miseducation is gonna be on there. Okay. Right. I'm 51 00:03:10.745 --> 00:03:14.525 well, bringing it forward to today, you're working 52 00:03:14.665 --> 00:03:18.285 in kind of an online program, online community 53 00:03:18.425 --> 00:03:21.750 called rest mixtape. Rest is an acronym and mixtape. 54 00:03:22.690 --> 00:03:26.530 Talk to us a little bit about the mixtape aspect. Like, why is that 55 00:03:26.530 --> 00:03:30.210 kind of the organizing metaphor or the ideal that you're 56 00:03:30.210 --> 00:03:33.570 bringing into this community? It's a really good question. I think, 57 00:03:33.890 --> 00:03:37.424 really, I think part of what I experienced in sort 58 00:03:37.424 --> 00:03:41.265 of the my upbringing in in Western faith 59 00:03:41.265 --> 00:03:44.325 constructs was a real sense of outsourced intuition. 60 00:03:45.185 --> 00:03:48.224 And so when I was seeking to kind of recover that and recover my own 61 00:03:48.224 --> 00:03:51.880 intuition, recover agency when it came to faith and and the ways that I 62 00:03:51.880 --> 00:03:55.640 was naming divine reality. The mixtape just popped up because it's 63 00:03:55.640 --> 00:03:59.400 such an intuitive curation. I don't ask questions 64 00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:03.080 when I'm creating a mixtape, whether or not the selections are good, whether or 65 00:04:03.080 --> 00:04:06.925 not people should hear the the song. I think they should. There's that, there's 66 00:04:06.925 --> 00:04:10.285 a real, cool thing when you're curating something like a 67 00:04:10.285 --> 00:04:14.125 mixtape that kind of helps you to kind of bypass the 68 00:04:14.125 --> 00:04:17.870 typical self doubt. And I think 69 00:04:17.930 --> 00:04:21.630 using a mixtape as a methodology for what we do 70 00:04:22.010 --> 00:04:25.850 about an increasingly post Christian world, is a helpful way 71 00:04:25.850 --> 00:04:29.370 for people to not feel so, daunted by the task of 72 00:04:29.370 --> 00:04:33.125 figuring out what we do now, or or, you know, intimidated 73 00:04:33.265 --> 00:04:37.045 by that task, but really thinking about how do we mix tape 74 00:04:37.105 --> 00:04:40.785 the best things, the things that we wanna keep, the things that we 75 00:04:40.785 --> 00:04:43.985 want to remember, the things that we want to bring in. How do we curate 76 00:04:43.985 --> 00:04:47.729 that, from our wisdom traditions and from, the things that 77 00:04:47.729 --> 00:04:50.210 move us? And so I don't know. I just felt like when I was working 78 00:04:50.210 --> 00:04:53.270 on my doctorate, I had come up with sort of, 79 00:04:53.970 --> 00:04:57.650 what I've started calling these, like, sort of beautiful boundary lines that 80 00:04:57.650 --> 00:05:01.385 have fallen to me in pleasant places. And that kind of came of 81 00:05:01.385 --> 00:05:05.145 this acronym that was also kind of manifesting in my life as 82 00:05:05.145 --> 00:05:08.665 rest. And so it kind of was like, well, how did I get here? The 83 00:05:08.665 --> 00:05:11.785 way I got here was a sort of a mixtape methodology. And so I just 84 00:05:11.785 --> 00:05:13.920 started to kind of talk about it as the rest 85 00:05:15.840 --> 00:05:19.060 mix tape. Tell me a little bit about what you mean by outsourced intuition. 86 00:05:19.520 --> 00:05:23.200 Because I feel like a lot of us feel that in 87 00:05:23.200 --> 00:05:26.775 spaces of faith. So I'd love for you to put some flesh onto that. 88 00:05:27.175 --> 00:05:29.835 Yeah. I mean, I think it's it's a it's a real, 89 00:05:30.935 --> 00:05:34.615 well, when someone's, intuition is outsourced, you can get 90 00:05:34.615 --> 00:05:38.294 them to a lot, because they don't have a a reference 91 00:05:38.294 --> 00:05:42.060 point for truth that is within themselves. And so I think 92 00:05:42.060 --> 00:05:45.580 that really, probably the most I don't wanna say controversial. I I mean, I hope 93 00:05:45.580 --> 00:05:48.639 it's not controversial. I think it's I think it's you and Gallion, 94 00:05:49.020 --> 00:05:52.780 but, I hope it's not controversial. But one of the things that I am 95 00:05:52.780 --> 00:05:56.485 troubling with the mixtape is the notion of depravity. Because the notion 96 00:05:56.485 --> 00:05:59.865 of depravity is what leads someone to outsource their knowing. 97 00:06:00.885 --> 00:06:04.585 And, I think that that's what's happening in in the origin stories, 98 00:06:05.125 --> 00:06:08.485 that kind of set the stage for the rest of Christianity. And so I feel 99 00:06:08.485 --> 00:06:11.960 like we have to go back there. Right? Go back to the garden and figure 100 00:06:11.960 --> 00:06:15.400 out what is really being asked here and what is really happening in the 101 00:06:15.400 --> 00:06:18.860 story. I know that for me, particularly, 102 00:06:19.080 --> 00:06:22.620 Genesis three was used to, identify 103 00:06:22.919 --> 00:06:26.255 my sin nature, that this was the fall of sin and that my nature was 104 00:06:26.255 --> 00:06:29.935 sinful and it's because of what happened in this garden. But, you know, in 105 00:06:29.935 --> 00:06:33.535 my excavation process, I go back and look and sin is nowhere in the garden. 106 00:06:33.535 --> 00:06:37.294 Sin doesn't come until Cain and Abel. So something else is happening here. 107 00:06:37.294 --> 00:06:40.670 And that's what started to make me think about what are the questions being 108 00:06:40.670 --> 00:06:44.510 asked, what are the answers and the actions that are happening 109 00:06:44.510 --> 00:06:48.270 in this story, and and what else might we see here, that could help 110 00:06:48.270 --> 00:06:52.030 us? Because I've I've looked at sort of the fruit of what people believing 111 00:06:52.030 --> 00:06:55.725 in their own depravity does, And it it really causes 112 00:06:55.725 --> 00:06:59.405 people to act depraved. Right? Like, there's 113 00:06:59.405 --> 00:07:03.165 no, you don't have an option. You know, it's it's an identity that 114 00:07:03.165 --> 00:07:06.540 has been conferred onto you, and you 115 00:07:06.540 --> 00:07:10.139 have no choice about that. And so that 116 00:07:10.220 --> 00:07:13.680 that's troubling, I think, for people. And so how do you navigate the world 117 00:07:13.980 --> 00:07:17.820 when yourself is not trustworthy? You have to outsource. But then 118 00:07:17.820 --> 00:07:21.405 that means that you're being led by something. And what the rest of theixtape does 119 00:07:21.405 --> 00:07:24.784 is say, what is the something, and do you want that to be leading you? 120 00:07:25.085 --> 00:07:28.764 Yeah. Okay. And the idea of depravity is is simply 121 00:07:28.764 --> 00:07:32.604 this idea that, like, human beings at our core were 122 00:07:32.604 --> 00:07:36.110 just, like, dirty sinful beings. Okay. 123 00:07:36.250 --> 00:07:39.290 Right. And I think one of the things that I I think makes the mixtape 124 00:07:39.290 --> 00:07:42.970 process so cool is that, I grounded in 125 00:07:42.970 --> 00:07:46.729 black cultural creativity, as a sacred text because you're 126 00:07:46.729 --> 00:07:50.085 dealing with a lived a lived experience of 127 00:07:50.085 --> 00:07:53.525 people who had an identity conferred onto them, who 128 00:07:53.525 --> 00:07:57.044 confounded everybody, who conferred that in that identity onto 129 00:07:57.044 --> 00:08:00.824 them. I mean, to be an objection, to be told that you are not human, 130 00:08:00.965 --> 00:08:04.345 to be told that you are an animal, and to create 131 00:08:05.460 --> 00:08:09.220 the black church and music and art and poetry and 132 00:08:09.220 --> 00:08:13.060 families and food and culture, that is 133 00:08:13.060 --> 00:08:16.900 confounding to the logic. And I think that, that what 134 00:08:16.900 --> 00:08:20.475 we need right now is to learn from people who have like, kind 135 00:08:27.835 --> 00:08:31.275 sense of self that was wretched, right. In order for Black people to do anything 136 00:08:31.275 --> 00:08:34.955 in this country. And so I think, you know, I get the permission, right. I 137 00:08:34.955 --> 00:08:38.450 get the permission to trouble these texts, from people who who 138 00:08:38.450 --> 00:08:41.990 proved, the interpretation of those texts incorrect. 139 00:08:43.410 --> 00:08:47.030 Do you think with a mix set mindset 140 00:08:47.810 --> 00:08:51.514 mix tape mindset, sorry, that in a 141 00:08:51.514 --> 00:08:54.154 way we're we're able I don't know if it's fair to say that we're able 142 00:08:54.154 --> 00:08:57.855 to redeem some voices from the past, but we're able to, like, 143 00:08:58.154 --> 00:09:01.675 lift out the valuable, while still recognizing the 144 00:09:01.675 --> 00:09:05.350 negative. Because I gotta admit, like, you know, there are a lot of people that 145 00:09:05.570 --> 00:09:09.010 had some ideas that I might find 146 00:09:09.010 --> 00:09:12.770 valuable today, but also, said 147 00:09:12.770 --> 00:09:16.450 some repulsive or heinous things. Yeah. Like And I 148 00:09:16.450 --> 00:09:19.875 think that's the best way. Right? Like, I think, you know, with my lived experience 149 00:09:20.175 --> 00:09:23.935 of a person who, is constantly feeling like I'm living on the 150 00:09:23.935 --> 00:09:27.235 edge of institutions because of just who I am as a person, 151 00:09:27.615 --> 00:09:31.315 it's a really interesting thing to think about. Like, even that impulse, 152 00:09:31.580 --> 00:09:35.100 the either or impulse, the, the binary impulse is not natural to 153 00:09:35.100 --> 00:09:38.860 me. What's natural to me is to think about what can work. Is there 154 00:09:38.860 --> 00:09:42.620 a third way? What can we keep? You know, sometimes people are, 155 00:09:42.620 --> 00:09:45.980 are amazing and also jerks in the same 156 00:09:45.980 --> 00:09:49.285 day, you know? And, and so we need ethical 157 00:09:49.345 --> 00:09:53.024 framing, and, and, and religious containers that hold 158 00:09:53.024 --> 00:09:56.385 space for human complexity. But when you're either good or 159 00:09:56.385 --> 00:09:59.920 bad, either saved or lost, you really don't 160 00:09:59.920 --> 00:10:03.680 give room for people to think about their own human complexity. And so then you 161 00:10:03.680 --> 00:10:07.120 don't give people the opportunity to change. And that creates 162 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:10.720 shame. Right? Like, and I I think about how this plays out, not just in, 163 00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:14.475 like, Christian circles, but in cancel culture, right? Like you, you 164 00:10:14.475 --> 00:10:18.235 know, what is the nature of perfection? Which again, takes us back to that garden 165 00:10:18.235 --> 00:10:21.915 scene. What do you even mean by perfect? What does God mean when God 166 00:10:21.915 --> 00:10:25.420 says be perfect, design perfect? We need to re ask these questions 167 00:10:25.880 --> 00:10:29.640 using a logic that doesn't come from binary thinking because we all 168 00:10:29.640 --> 00:10:33.420 see that nothing is this or that. A lot of times things are both and, 169 00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:37.820 or yes and, or no not yet, you know, 170 00:10:38.280 --> 00:10:41.665 that's life. And so we need constructs that make sense of 171 00:10:41.665 --> 00:10:45.264 life, which is what the e in the rest mix tape does. The ethical 172 00:10:45.264 --> 00:10:49.105 relationality there tries to think about ethics that are based 173 00:10:49.105 --> 00:10:52.785 in sort of a non duality, a sense of like life is 174 00:10:52.785 --> 00:10:56.490 complicated and liminal. And so our ethical choices need to take 175 00:10:56.490 --> 00:11:00.250 that into account. And what that does is it really, it makes it 176 00:11:00.250 --> 00:11:03.770 so that people believe other people can change, right? You live in the 177 00:11:03.770 --> 00:11:07.214 world with an orientation that people are not 178 00:11:07.214 --> 00:11:10.895 depraved and most people, if given the right opportunities and 179 00:11:10.895 --> 00:11:14.735 given the right information are willing to change. And I've been testing this in my 180 00:11:14.735 --> 00:11:18.495 travels, and when I've been in scenarios with people that I would 181 00:11:18.495 --> 00:11:21.530 typically not talk to, I will test this and it works. 182 00:11:22.470 --> 00:11:25.830 Okay. The idea of perfection is 183 00:11:25.830 --> 00:11:29.370 scintillating to me, just because I I 184 00:11:29.589 --> 00:11:33.295 I maybe I have some perfectionist tendencies. It's like I always want 185 00:11:33.295 --> 00:11:36.495 things to be just right. And in fact, a lot of times I'll I'll keep 186 00:11:36.495 --> 00:11:39.235 myself from doing things because, you know, 187 00:11:39.935 --> 00:11:43.454 my anticipated outcome is not gonna be that of 188 00:11:43.454 --> 00:11:47.220 perfection. So, for people like me, how 189 00:11:47.220 --> 00:11:50.900 are you thinking about perfection these days? Oh, 190 00:11:50.900 --> 00:11:54.660 man. I'm thinking about perfection as a process. Yeah. And so 191 00:11:54.660 --> 00:11:58.180 that automatically takes a lot of pressure off. And 192 00:11:58.180 --> 00:12:01.964 so when we think about perfection in scripture, you know 193 00:12:01.964 --> 00:12:05.325 Matthew five forty eight be perfect as I am 194 00:12:05.325 --> 00:12:09.084 perfect. Some other people I think Peter might 195 00:12:09.084 --> 00:12:12.765 render it you know be holy as I'm holy. We've got to ask what does 196 00:12:12.765 --> 00:12:16.390 God mean by holy? So we would hear the question. We 197 00:12:16.390 --> 00:12:19.850 would hear the response. Holy means different, set apart, 198 00:12:20.149 --> 00:12:23.910 unlike what you see. Okay. So what do you see about Jesus that makes him 199 00:12:23.910 --> 00:12:26.970 different from the people he sees? He's present to the moment. 200 00:12:27.910 --> 00:12:30.855 He goes with the flow. He's there. 201 00:12:31.634 --> 00:12:35.014 Raw incarnate presence. Fully there. 202 00:12:35.315 --> 00:12:38.694 Fully there. I mean, present, not dissociated. Here. 203 00:12:39.154 --> 00:12:42.915 Presence and perfection are one in the same to me. To be fully 204 00:12:42.915 --> 00:12:46.490 present, flaws and all, but willing to 205 00:12:46.490 --> 00:12:50.330 change is perfect. I can I need to be on the edge of becoming? That's 206 00:12:50.330 --> 00:12:54.090 what perfection is. It's it's an acknowledgment that I'm fully here and I'm okay 207 00:12:54.090 --> 00:12:57.690 right here, and also there is more, and I'm open to that. It's a 208 00:12:57.690 --> 00:13:00.410 it's a it's a way to stand and live in the world, 209 00:13:01.425 --> 00:13:04.865 that makes you different from, folks who are who 210 00:13:04.865 --> 00:13:08.245 are buying into the logic of caste and empire, 211 00:13:09.584 --> 00:13:13.425 who are believing this logic, who are and though most of those 212 00:13:13.425 --> 00:13:17.269 people are angry, they they kinda feel like I keep picturing that woman in the 213 00:13:17.269 --> 00:13:21.110 scriptures who's, like, bent over for all those years. Right? That kind 214 00:13:21.110 --> 00:13:24.950 of a logic and that kind of a framing of perfection, leads to 215 00:13:24.950 --> 00:13:28.615 despondency. And and it's odd to 216 00:13:28.615 --> 00:13:32.055 me that, as we think about our our social landscape right 217 00:13:32.055 --> 00:13:35.815 now, like, the despondency and the despair from people 218 00:13:35.815 --> 00:13:39.495 who say they've been perfected in God. How does 219 00:13:39.495 --> 00:13:43.190 that work? So again, we you know, 220 00:13:43.570 --> 00:13:47.330 it's not to throw the things out. It's to reexamine them. This word is 221 00:13:47.330 --> 00:13:51.170 living. This word was said 222 00:13:51.170 --> 00:13:55.010 to be living. So that means it it moves, it grows, 223 00:13:55.010 --> 00:13:58.675 it breathes. And I think that we just need what the rest mixtape 224 00:13:58.675 --> 00:14:02.515 is is a container for the living word, to go with us 225 00:14:02.515 --> 00:14:06.275 into into these new frontiers of faith. And, you know, you and I 226 00:14:06.275 --> 00:14:09.895 talk a lot about technology and, you know, all of that kind of stuff. 227 00:14:10.275 --> 00:14:14.009 So that's what I do. Yeah. I feel 228 00:14:14.009 --> 00:14:17.690 like we're we're ready to talk about rest, and 229 00:14:17.690 --> 00:14:21.310 not not just rest in in terms of, like, 230 00:14:21.370 --> 00:14:24.970 Sabbath or taking it easy for a little bit, but the the acronym that you've 231 00:14:24.970 --> 00:14:27.524 looked it up as part of your practice. Can you can can you give us 232 00:14:27.524 --> 00:14:31.065 what that acronym stands for and a little bit about those those principles? 233 00:14:31.605 --> 00:14:34.964 Yeah. Thank you for asking. Yeah. So the r e s 234 00:14:34.964 --> 00:14:38.745 t, rest, it stands for radical, ethical, 235 00:14:39.045 --> 00:14:42.810 spirituality that is tethered. And, what I mean 236 00:14:42.810 --> 00:14:46.570 by radical there is naming what's real, telling the truth. For 237 00:14:46.570 --> 00:14:50.090 someone who, was given, a vision of a 238 00:14:50.090 --> 00:14:52.670 Christ who held no space for my lived experience, 239 00:14:53.770 --> 00:14:57.345 there wasn't a lot of truth telling in the foundation of my 240 00:14:57.345 --> 00:15:00.945 faith. And so it disappointed me. So I put that 241 00:15:00.945 --> 00:15:04.725 back into the way I do my faith. It has to tell the truth, 242 00:15:05.265 --> 00:15:08.865 tell the truth about the world I'm really living in. Right. And tell the truth 243 00:15:08.865 --> 00:15:12.180 about who I really am. Like, hey. There's some ways I need to come up 244 00:15:12.180 --> 00:15:16.020 in this area. Right? So we we gotta start with truth telling. It can't 245 00:15:16.020 --> 00:15:18.900 just be the truth about out there and also needs to be about what am 246 00:15:18.900 --> 00:15:22.395 I contributing to what's out there. Right? From there, we go to ethical. 247 00:15:22.475 --> 00:15:26.075 Ethical. Right? So radical ethics is about non duality that, 248 00:15:26.635 --> 00:15:30.095 you know, I've I've I've this came by way of the East. Right? 249 00:15:30.715 --> 00:15:34.255 And by way of of of ancestral understandings of Ubuntu 250 00:15:34.795 --> 00:15:38.410 and utter nonseparateness that comes from people like, you you know, that 251 00:15:38.410 --> 00:15:42.190 comes from like Advada Vedanta and people like Roman Panikkar 252 00:15:42.250 --> 00:15:46.090 who talks about, cosmotheandric spirituality, this reality that all 253 00:15:46.090 --> 00:15:49.770 things are one. And I get the permission to 254 00:15:49.770 --> 00:15:53.315 add this from Christian scriptures. In first Corinthians 255 00:15:53.315 --> 00:15:57.154 15, it's 28, Paul is laying out. So we 256 00:15:57.154 --> 00:16:00.915 say, we would say that, you know, Christians believe the thing that makes you a 257 00:16:00.915 --> 00:16:04.675 Christian is what you believe about resurrection. Right? You believe that Christ is risen 258 00:16:04.675 --> 00:16:08.300 from the dead. And so resurrection is a 259 00:16:08.300 --> 00:16:12.080 key component of any kind of conversations we have about Christianity. 260 00:16:12.220 --> 00:16:16.000 So let's have them, right? And so in the chapter 261 00:16:16.060 --> 00:16:19.514 about resurrection, you have Paul in, in, in verse 262 00:16:19.514 --> 00:16:23.274 28 who says, and then comes the end. He paints 263 00:16:23.274 --> 00:16:27.035 this picture of of, you know, these kingdoms being sort of submitted 264 00:16:27.035 --> 00:16:30.875 and surrendered to the father. And then it says, and the last enemy to 265 00:16:30.875 --> 00:16:34.680 be defeated is death. Once that enemy is defeated, the 266 00:16:34.680 --> 00:16:38.519 son is made submissive to the father and and then the kingdom is 267 00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:42.279 made submissive to the father and God is all in all. What Paul is 268 00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:45.800 describing here is some sort of enfolding, and 269 00:16:45.800 --> 00:16:49.565 coming back into oneness that I only see reflected in Eastern 270 00:16:49.565 --> 00:16:52.925 traditions. I've never heard anybody from Christianity talk about this 271 00:16:52.925 --> 00:16:56.285 passage, but if the last enemy to be defeated in first 272 00:16:56.285 --> 00:16:59.965 Corinthians 28 is death, that means that the end of Christianity is not 273 00:16:59.965 --> 00:17:03.259 heaven. Revelation ends with death, 274 00:17:03.399 --> 00:17:07.079 right? Paul is going the end of Christianity is not actually heaven. It's 275 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:10.760 this utter nonsense, it's first Corinthians 15, it's God is all in all. That's where 276 00:17:10.760 --> 00:17:14.440 this thing is actually going. God is all in all. Now that 277 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:18.095 puts us in a different starting point for thinking about how we share about our 278 00:17:18.095 --> 00:17:21.855 faith, how we communicate our faith, how defensive we 279 00:17:21.855 --> 00:17:25.694 are about our faith. If that's where it's going, why don't 280 00:17:25.694 --> 00:17:29.455 Christians start there and work backwards? We don't have to advocate Jesus. We don't have 281 00:17:29.455 --> 00:17:32.434 to advocate anything. What we do let go of is supremacy, 282 00:17:33.190 --> 00:17:36.170 exclusivism, which is colonial, not Christian. 283 00:17:37.350 --> 00:17:41.130 Right? So, so that's the ethics. The spirituality 284 00:17:41.190 --> 00:17:44.950 piece is sacred smallness, right? This 285 00:17:44.950 --> 00:17:48.605 idea that like, small in a good way. Like 286 00:17:48.605 --> 00:17:52.225 I've been made to feel small in religious spaces, not that kind of small. 287 00:17:52.365 --> 00:17:54.845 I mean small in a good way and the only way I could describe it 288 00:17:54.845 --> 00:17:57.565 was when we were in San Francisco and I told you about it when we 289 00:17:57.565 --> 00:18:01.320 were at the Presidio that I walked up to this tree 290 00:18:01.320 --> 00:18:04.919 and it literally took my breath away. And the reality of it 291 00:18:04.919 --> 00:18:07.659 was I didn't, it was unmediated, 292 00:18:09.080 --> 00:18:12.519 it was uncontrollable. And I'm like, oh, that was 293 00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:16.225 worship. That the beauty and the majesty and 294 00:18:16.225 --> 00:18:19.845 the ancient nature of this tree, the fact that it is 295 00:18:20.065 --> 00:18:23.505 still here, that it is seen in thousands of years of history. 296 00:18:24.865 --> 00:18:27.900 It is here and it is standing and it is vast. And I, I looked 297 00:18:27.900 --> 00:18:31.260 at that and I was like, oh, this is what they meant. This is what 298 00:18:31.260 --> 00:18:34.860 they mean by awe and wonder and worship. It pulled it out of 299 00:18:34.860 --> 00:18:38.300 me. It wasn't everybody lift your hands now, we're going to 300 00:18:38.300 --> 00:18:41.600 worship, lift your hands to the Lord. It wasn't compulsory. It wasn't 301 00:18:42.045 --> 00:18:45.805 give him what you got because you owe him or, you know, he's worthy 302 00:18:45.805 --> 00:18:49.185 of it. Give him the glory because you you better. It was like, 303 00:18:49.645 --> 00:18:53.245 woah. What is that? That is beautiful. You can't do 304 00:18:53.245 --> 00:18:56.830 anything but fall face down. Now, anybody that I've seen encounter God in 305 00:18:56.830 --> 00:19:00.670 scripture has that reaction, typically. And so 306 00:19:00.670 --> 00:19:03.790 it was like, oh, this is what is meant by spirituality. Now what I call 307 00:19:03.790 --> 00:19:07.230 it is the T. What I call it is tradition. The 308 00:19:07.230 --> 00:19:10.905 tradition is the language that we get that connect us to place and 309 00:19:10.905 --> 00:19:14.125 ancestry and story of survival and resistance. 310 00:19:14.985 --> 00:19:18.665 Language is important. On the one hand, when you 311 00:19:18.665 --> 00:19:22.265 think about spirituality, it can coexist, right? Like if God is all in all, then 312 00:19:22.265 --> 00:19:25.960 everything is language. It's It's just what you call it. And 313 00:19:25.960 --> 00:19:29.560 on the other hand, traditionally, it matters what you call it because it connects 314 00:19:29.560 --> 00:19:33.400 you to a people in a place and that can be very anchoring. So in 315 00:19:33.400 --> 00:19:36.920 between the radical truth telling and the tethering to wisdom and place 316 00:19:36.920 --> 00:19:40.675 and tradition is this ethical spirituality that gets to get worked out 317 00:19:40.675 --> 00:19:44.515 because times change, and we change. And that's kind of it in 318 00:19:44.515 --> 00:19:48.275 a nutshell. And like the mixtape portion again is me bringing 319 00:19:48.275 --> 00:19:52.000 in film and scripture and stories, to kind 320 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:55.760 of demonstrate ways of doing this, ways 321 00:19:55.760 --> 00:19:59.520 we can trouble some of the way some of the logic we've inherited, and then 322 00:19:59.520 --> 00:20:03.360 some paths forward as well, examples of how people are walking this out. That's it 323 00:20:03.360 --> 00:20:07.035 in a nutshell. Yeah. When you're talking about troubling some of the 324 00:20:07.035 --> 00:20:10.635 things that we've inherited, as you've started this 325 00:20:10.635 --> 00:20:14.395 program, you're working with some people and almost in like a coaching or 326 00:20:14.395 --> 00:20:18.235 mentoring relationship. What are some 327 00:20:18.235 --> 00:20:21.870 of the issues that, that you run up 328 00:20:21.870 --> 00:20:24.850 against consistently? Like, what needs troubling? 329 00:20:25.710 --> 00:20:29.170 I think, you know, honestly, Ryan, what's troubling is the fear 330 00:20:29.390 --> 00:20:32.850 of, embracing other ways of knowing and being. 331 00:20:33.895 --> 00:20:36.715 So I think for me as someone who's pastoral, 332 00:20:37.895 --> 00:20:40.635 I am trying to think of 333 00:20:41.655 --> 00:20:45.015 ways to get people across that threshold of 334 00:20:45.015 --> 00:20:48.440 invulnerability and fear, because 335 00:20:48.500 --> 00:20:51.960 that threshold in and of itself is the threshold to God. 336 00:20:52.740 --> 00:20:56.500 And so I think for me working with young people, it really is 337 00:20:56.500 --> 00:20:59.595 about how do I not repeat what happened to me, 338 00:21:00.715 --> 00:21:04.414 in terms of, like, feeling like I had was forced to believe to belong. 339 00:21:05.755 --> 00:21:08.635 How do I not repeat what happened to me in other ways, which was, like, 340 00:21:08.635 --> 00:21:11.674 what I did believe was seen as stupid or, 341 00:21:11.995 --> 00:21:15.669 archaic or silly. The best way I've 342 00:21:15.669 --> 00:21:19.350 found doing it has been the music. So what we 343 00:21:19.350 --> 00:21:23.029 do is we will do circles and they'll they'll everybody will submit a 344 00:21:23.029 --> 00:21:26.710 playlist and, you know, I'll have a prompt. So the most 345 00:21:26.710 --> 00:21:29.775 recent one we did, I I had a prompt and the prompt was, you know, 346 00:21:29.775 --> 00:21:33.615 put a song in the playlist that sums you up. And they 347 00:21:33.615 --> 00:21:37.455 did. And, we played them and people had to guess, 348 00:21:37.455 --> 00:21:41.100 you know, whose whose song was what. So So then the person would 349 00:21:41.100 --> 00:21:44.860 reveal themselves and talk about why and how. And then we would 350 00:21:44.860 --> 00:21:48.640 talk about we borrow from Dory Baker's, Live to Tell model. 351 00:21:49.020 --> 00:21:51.820 And so then we would kind of do that storytelling. It's a little bit different, 352 00:21:51.820 --> 00:21:55.245 but it borrows from that. And then they would start to talk about what the 353 00:21:55.245 --> 00:21:58.605 song means and where it comes from. And then you know as the 354 00:21:58.605 --> 00:22:02.365 pastor I do the part of like where do you see something radical here? Where 355 00:22:02.365 --> 00:22:06.070 do you see something ethical here? What from your tradition does this remind you 356 00:22:06.370 --> 00:22:09.650 of? What what does this, you know, what does this have to say about God 357 00:22:09.650 --> 00:22:13.250 and the spirit? And in that way, they're having spiritual 358 00:22:13.250 --> 00:22:17.010 conversations that feel tethered because it's their music. They pick 359 00:22:17.010 --> 00:22:20.845 the track. Right? And it's a really beautiful way to not 360 00:22:20.845 --> 00:22:24.065 only excavate, like, how are people naming God right now? 361 00:22:24.925 --> 00:22:28.225 Because me with more experience and degrees, I go, oh, that's epistemological 362 00:22:28.525 --> 00:22:32.250 frameworks or, oh, you know, that's you're, oh, that's so symbiosis. 363 00:22:32.250 --> 00:22:35.690 And they're like, yes, of course. And, yeah. You know, I mean, I can translate 364 00:22:35.690 --> 00:22:38.510 it back. I will never force the language on them, 365 00:22:39.290 --> 00:22:43.130 because that's not how it works. Language has to be conjured if God wants 366 00:22:43.130 --> 00:22:46.905 to be remembered. And so I really think that that's a good way to 367 00:22:46.905 --> 00:22:50.285 get around that is like, how do we identify, 368 00:22:51.225 --> 00:22:54.985 right? When we're talking to young people, our job is not to 369 00:22:54.985 --> 00:22:58.620 make them say what we want them to say. Our job is to 370 00:22:58.620 --> 00:23:01.679 find out how, what they're saying is what we want them to say. 371 00:23:02.059 --> 00:23:05.759 Right? Our job is to do the translation work. Our job 372 00:23:05.980 --> 00:23:09.360 as shepherds is to think about how do we lead to green pasture? 373 00:23:09.820 --> 00:23:13.514 How do we make lie down? Not how do we make 374 00:23:13.514 --> 00:23:17.034 confess certain doctrinal truths? And I think 375 00:23:17.034 --> 00:23:20.634 my work at subculture was a response to that because it was 376 00:23:20.634 --> 00:23:24.475 like working in campus ministry was all about counting conversions, but my 377 00:23:24.475 --> 00:23:28.179 students, I wanted more than that for them. I wanted them to self 378 00:23:28.179 --> 00:23:31.940 actualize. I wanted them to name God, like give God a name, 379 00:23:31.940 --> 00:23:35.539 like Hagar, you know, like, that's gonna be important for 380 00:23:35.539 --> 00:23:39.159 you. Is it just the God of my campus minister? 381 00:23:39.299 --> 00:23:43.145 Is it the God who sees me? That's gonna change 382 00:23:43.285 --> 00:23:46.805 how you live your day to day, whether you gave God the name or somebody 383 00:23:46.805 --> 00:23:50.645 else did. You know? So I think, you know, thinking about young people in that 384 00:23:50.645 --> 00:23:54.185 regard and letting them name God, it's okay. 385 00:23:54.590 --> 00:23:58.430 If God is all in all, there is no name that's wrong. And we 386 00:23:58.430 --> 00:24:01.490 see that trajectory from Genesis 11 to Acts two. 387 00:24:02.190 --> 00:24:05.550 Right? DEI is a divine agenda, not a left 388 00:24:05.550 --> 00:24:08.804 one. Okay? When folks are 389 00:24:09.505 --> 00:24:13.184 are joining into the, the rest mixtape, do 390 00:24:13.184 --> 00:24:17.025 they have, are they able to name for 391 00:24:17.025 --> 00:24:20.580 themselves, like, a desired outcome? Are they joining for a specific 392 00:24:20.580 --> 00:24:24.360 reason? Yeah. So the people who join the mixtape right now are subculture 393 00:24:24.420 --> 00:24:28.020 fellows, because we're we're, you know, we're piloting it. Yeah. 394 00:24:28.980 --> 00:24:32.655 But, yeah, for the most part, they joined the fellows because they 395 00:24:32.655 --> 00:24:36.415 wanted robust support as they try to navigate college. And 396 00:24:36.415 --> 00:24:40.015 so what the fellows program does is they get they get a savings account, they 397 00:24:40.015 --> 00:24:43.630 get a monthly living expense stipend, they get a well of wisdom which is a 398 00:24:43.630 --> 00:24:46.910 person that is in their 60s or so that they track with, they get a 399 00:24:46.910 --> 00:24:50.590 success coach, but then they also get access to like going through the mixtape every 400 00:24:50.590 --> 00:24:54.290 week. So we do weekly, like gatherings, we do retreats 401 00:24:54.350 --> 00:24:57.870 together, learning journeys. So they're signing up for that. And I think, you 402 00:24:57.870 --> 00:25:01.325 know, what I love about subcultures programming is that it thinks 403 00:25:01.325 --> 00:25:04.765 about self actualization. It inverts the pyramid. And it says, well, if we 404 00:25:04.765 --> 00:25:07.965 prioritize that, what are the things we need to build so that they can actually 405 00:25:07.965 --> 00:25:11.325 sit in a room and think about who is God to me? And and how 406 00:25:11.325 --> 00:25:14.900 do I walk out a radical ethical spirituality that's still tethered to my tradition? 407 00:25:15.040 --> 00:25:18.720 So I don't feel lost out here in the waves. I mean, 2025 is 408 00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:22.020 wild. Mhmm. They're gonna need anchoring. And I think, 409 00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:26.480 you know, what I'm offering comes from a perspective of 410 00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:30.225 somebody who had to create an anchor. Because I think there 411 00:25:30.225 --> 00:25:33.585 are people who are Finnish, who are, you know, spiritual and not religious, but a 412 00:25:33.585 --> 00:25:37.424 lot of times those people haven't, done the radical truth 413 00:25:37.424 --> 00:25:41.205 telling part. So they haven't excavated the colonial impulse to just abandon tradition. 414 00:25:41.520 --> 00:25:45.040 That's actually what colonization is. It is an abandonment of 415 00:25:45.040 --> 00:25:48.800 tradition to just take, take, take, take, take, and leave things in the 416 00:25:48.800 --> 00:25:52.560 wake. That's not what people of color do. We keep things 417 00:25:52.560 --> 00:25:56.055 to remember, that remind us of place. And so to be 418 00:25:56.055 --> 00:25:59.675 spiritual and not religious can sometimes be very ambient 419 00:26:00.135 --> 00:26:03.815 and ethereal and, like, not anchored. But if it's not 420 00:26:03.815 --> 00:26:07.370 anchored, it really can't lead well. And we're in times right 421 00:26:07.370 --> 00:26:10.429 now. We need people who can lead us who are anchored somewhere. 422 00:26:11.289 --> 00:26:15.049 I think that's just important to say. This is not 423 00:26:15.049 --> 00:26:18.465 a time to not say that. You know? Yeah. Mhmm. Lisa 424 00:26:18.544 --> 00:26:21.525 said. Are are people 425 00:26:22.465 --> 00:26:26.145 coming because, well, are they coming from a, like, a 426 00:26:26.145 --> 00:26:29.825 traditional Christian background and they're looking for something 427 00:26:29.825 --> 00:26:33.539 different? Or Yeah. That's a great question. So for the folks that went 428 00:26:33.539 --> 00:26:37.080 through the focus group, and that was all, practitioners. 429 00:26:37.539 --> 00:26:41.220 So practitioners, you know, from the new evangelicals to, like, people 430 00:26:41.220 --> 00:26:44.580 doing church work in rural America, to people who 431 00:26:44.580 --> 00:26:47.940 are, you know, to Starlet who's doing raceless 432 00:26:47.940 --> 00:26:51.675 gospel. Right? We've got people who were who are 433 00:26:51.675 --> 00:26:55.355 doing, trips. My sister-in-law, Alyssa Ann Travels, is doing 434 00:26:55.355 --> 00:26:58.395 trips. I mean, there was a bunch of different types of perspectives on this call 435 00:26:58.395 --> 00:27:01.135 because I wanted to know, like, how do we 436 00:27:02.075 --> 00:27:05.880 how does this sound? How is this landing? Those 437 00:27:05.880 --> 00:27:08.380 folks were coming in with with Christian, 438 00:27:11.559 --> 00:27:15.000 leadership perspective, I would say. Right? So the 439 00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:18.760 conversation in that class is different than the conversation I have 440 00:27:18.760 --> 00:27:21.475 with my student my Black black students. My black students, 441 00:27:22.815 --> 00:27:26.495 I'm not gonna mess I'm not gonna trouble much, because it's not 442 00:27:26.495 --> 00:27:29.615 helpful. That's gonna be dysregulating for them. What I'm going to do is just ask 443 00:27:29.615 --> 00:27:33.134 them some questions, like, questions essentially like Jesus asked, which 444 00:27:33.134 --> 00:27:36.650 is, what did the scripture say? How do you read them? 445 00:27:38.390 --> 00:27:41.910 And then we go from there. Right? And so for 446 00:27:41.910 --> 00:27:45.430 them, it's not so much about them not be 447 00:27:45.430 --> 00:27:49.125 wanting to get rid of their Christianity for people of color, like, you 448 00:27:49.125 --> 00:27:52.665 know, especially, you know, Black people in America, Christianity 449 00:27:52.885 --> 00:27:56.105 is a survival mechanism. It's a harder thing to let go of, 450 00:27:56.485 --> 00:28:00.165 because so much identity formation took place in the Black church and 451 00:28:00.165 --> 00:28:03.880 affirmation took place in the Black Black church. Yes, wounding. But 452 00:28:03.880 --> 00:28:07.480 there's but it's a comp a more complicated conversation. And so I wouldn't 453 00:28:07.480 --> 00:28:11.320 have that conversation with in that context, like I would 454 00:28:11.320 --> 00:28:14.955 with like leaders and practitioners who are thinking about the future of faith. Right? So 455 00:28:14.955 --> 00:28:18.715 it just depends on who's gathered, like, how deeply we go into each of 456 00:28:18.715 --> 00:28:20.655 the elements. Okay. 457 00:28:22.315 --> 00:28:26.155 In speaking with you, well, through our many conversations, something that 458 00:28:26.155 --> 00:28:29.590 you you consistently bring up to me is 459 00:28:29.590 --> 00:28:33.370 the idea of hush harbors. Yes. Can 460 00:28:33.429 --> 00:28:36.730 you talk to us a little bit about that? And specifically, like, 461 00:28:37.270 --> 00:28:40.570 the place of hush harbors in today's 462 00:28:40.710 --> 00:28:44.225 society and, like, how communities of faith can start 463 00:28:45.005 --> 00:28:48.845 to live into that kind of safe environment. Yes. I just I'm 464 00:28:48.845 --> 00:28:51.425 I'm feeling so much deep gratitude for, 465 00:28:53.165 --> 00:28:56.785 the ancient black spiritual technology of the 466 00:28:59.470 --> 00:29:03.230 Harbor. I think that that technology can be mapped onto other 467 00:29:03.230 --> 00:29:06.750 things. I'm trying to do an app right now that is, like, actually encoding a 468 00:29:06.750 --> 00:29:09.650 Hush Harbor. But I think deeply about 469 00:29:10.985 --> 00:29:14.825 what is the nerve that drove these people to carve 470 00:29:14.825 --> 00:29:18.525 out a clearing. Mhmm. Amidst of all of that 471 00:29:19.545 --> 00:29:23.325 literal darkness, I mean, they would they would 472 00:29:24.105 --> 00:29:26.160 when you think about what this thing was, 473 00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:32.160 it's profound. These people from all of these different tribes 474 00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:35.940 in Africa who had been trafficked, sold a lie, trafficked, 475 00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:39.840 put on boats with people they didn't know, who didn't speak their language. I 476 00:29:39.840 --> 00:29:43.304 mean, locked up together with people you never met before. 477 00:29:43.765 --> 00:29:46.645 That that would be like somebody coming to your house and throwing you into a 478 00:29:46.645 --> 00:29:50.085 van with a neighbor you've never talked to who speaks a different language and made 479 00:29:50.085 --> 00:29:53.845 y'all made 15 of y'all get into a sedan. Okay? So that's what I 480 00:29:53.845 --> 00:29:57.500 want you to feel. So these people are brought 481 00:29:57.500 --> 00:30:01.179 together in trauma and trafficking and they come to this 482 00:30:01.179 --> 00:30:04.940 land. They don't know the land. The people who do know the land have 483 00:30:04.940 --> 00:30:08.779 been pushed out of it. And they come here, they're 484 00:30:08.779 --> 00:30:11.279 forced to work, ripped from their families, 485 00:30:12.164 --> 00:30:15.384 violently treated, dehumanized, and 486 00:30:15.524 --> 00:30:19.225 somehow somehow 487 00:30:20.725 --> 00:30:24.485 they follow what Aoife calls the feeling. You know? We could call it 488 00:30:24.485 --> 00:30:28.220 the spirit. Everybody calls it something different. They follow this 489 00:30:28.220 --> 00:30:31.980 impulse to get free. It's a it's an 490 00:30:31.980 --> 00:30:35.760 impulse. It's an orientation to life. It's an impulse towards freedom. 491 00:30:36.220 --> 00:30:39.900 And and so what they did, the way that it manifested was they 492 00:30:39.900 --> 00:30:43.715 would sneak out in the middle of the night and you just had 493 00:30:43.715 --> 00:30:46.675 to know where to go. You had to follow the feeling. And they would come 494 00:30:46.675 --> 00:30:50.295 upon this, a lot of times it was like a marsh area 495 00:30:51.155 --> 00:30:54.929 where it would be wooded and swampy and dark, and they 496 00:30:54.929 --> 00:30:58.610 would go out there and they would chant in their language. They would 497 00:30:58.610 --> 00:31:02.130 dance. They would and sing. They 498 00:31:02.130 --> 00:31:05.649 would prophesy. They would preach. In, 499 00:31:06.130 --> 00:31:09.809 Toni Morrison's book, Beloved, Baby Silves Holy, she says, you 500 00:31:09.809 --> 00:31:13.455 know, love your hands, lift them up. You 501 00:31:13.455 --> 00:31:17.135 know, she is declaring you are good, you are not 502 00:31:17.135 --> 00:31:20.815 depraved. And in that space of 503 00:31:20.815 --> 00:31:24.434 fugitivity, they carved out a name 504 00:31:24.735 --> 00:31:27.559 for God. They carved out a culture. 505 00:31:28.500 --> 00:31:32.100 Out of all of these different tribes came Black 506 00:31:32.100 --> 00:31:35.720 culture, out of this spiritual fugitivity. Now 507 00:31:36.020 --> 00:31:39.585 the Hush Harbor started first. After 508 00:31:39.585 --> 00:31:43.265 that, you know, as they get more and more proximity to to learning the like 509 00:31:43.265 --> 00:31:46.625 they learn to read by leading the reading the Bible and things like that. So 510 00:31:46.625 --> 00:31:50.465 of course, now you begin to institutionalize. Right? And so the 511 00:31:50.465 --> 00:31:54.260 hush harbor though, it needs to be said is the foundation for the Black 512 00:31:54.260 --> 00:31:58.100 church. And that matters for people like me with queer identity because the 513 00:31:58.100 --> 00:32:01.700 Black church is not always welcoming to people like me. So I needed a 514 00:32:01.700 --> 00:32:05.380 deeper root, that let me keep the Black 515 00:32:05.380 --> 00:32:09.075 spiritual technology that has all my grandparents' 516 00:32:09.215 --> 00:32:12.975 stories connected to it and all my ancestors' stories connected to it, but 517 00:32:12.975 --> 00:32:16.815 didn't require me to show up in fractions. And so the Hush Armor would be 518 00:32:16.815 --> 00:32:20.495 a really beautiful technology, I think, for today, as we think about 519 00:32:20.495 --> 00:32:24.300 fugitivity and carving out a clearing, where we 520 00:32:24.300 --> 00:32:28.000 can be free. The spirit of God is an orientation to freedom. 521 00:32:28.700 --> 00:32:32.300 It is an orientation to life. That is why the message of God is 522 00:32:32.300 --> 00:32:35.740 resurrection. You can't kill life. And, and that is a 523 00:32:35.740 --> 00:32:39.475 witness that takes place in every sphere, whether it is a dying 524 00:32:39.475 --> 00:32:43.235 star to a tree, to to the skin on when we 525 00:32:43.235 --> 00:32:46.775 get a cut. Resurrection is a fact of life. Jesus 526 00:32:46.835 --> 00:32:50.595 embodies that as a first century Jewish rabbi, but it's it's not 527 00:32:50.595 --> 00:32:54.330 unique to him. It's everywhere. What is first what is, for Romans 528 00:32:54.330 --> 00:32:57.690 one say? What can be known about god is seen in the 529 00:32:57.690 --> 00:33:01.210 cosmos and in nature? So the 530 00:33:01.210 --> 00:33:04.890 story of resurrection is a fact. That's what gives us courage. That's what gives 531 00:33:04.890 --> 00:33:08.205 Jesus courage to be nonviolent. You can't kill life. 532 00:33:10.044 --> 00:33:13.804 Well, we're coming to the close of our 533 00:33:13.804 --> 00:33:17.585 time, Tamice. But, for people who want to learn more about, 534 00:33:18.524 --> 00:33:22.365 either who you are or some of the programs 535 00:33:22.365 --> 00:33:25.179 that you're involved in, where's a good spot to catch up with you? You can 536 00:33:25.179 --> 00:33:28.940 find me at tamise namay speaks dot com. That's like, I 537 00:33:28.940 --> 00:33:32.779 think the the distillery, I guess. I'm showing up in a couple of different ways, 538 00:33:32.779 --> 00:33:36.620 and you can find them all in that that space. Awesome. Well, Tamice, thank 539 00:33:36.620 --> 00:33:39.645 you so much for sharing your program with us, your ideas, and, 540 00:33:40.605 --> 00:33:43.965 and, you know, for the invitation to show up in some 541 00:33:43.965 --> 00:33:47.805 spaces, without that sense of fractionalization, like, that's gonna stick 542 00:33:47.805 --> 00:33:50.525 with me for a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm starting I meant to tell 543 00:33:50.525 --> 00:33:54.160 you this. I am there's a course just went live on my site, and it's 544 00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:57.920 called the Faith Unleavened Seminar. And it will start on March. 545 00:33:57.920 --> 00:34:01.140 And it's a it's a class. It's a real class to kinda do this gently 546 00:34:01.280 --> 00:34:03.680 and to do it well with people who are wanting to do it in a 547 00:34:03.680 --> 00:34:07.440 safe environment, with someone who who, has figured out 548 00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:11.165 an anchor. Well, that brings us to the end of another enlightening 549 00:34:11.165 --> 00:34:14.925 episode of Compass, finding spirituality in the everyday. A big 550 00:34:14.925 --> 00:34:18.764 thank you again to our guest, Denise Spencer Helms, for sharing your insights 551 00:34:18.764 --> 00:34:22.465 on the rest mix tape and the transformative power of spiritual 552 00:34:22.525 --> 00:34:26.020 technology. And And for our listeners, if you want to dive deeper 553 00:34:26.020 --> 00:34:29.560 into today's conversation or explore more episodes, 554 00:34:29.859 --> 00:34:31.859 be sure to visit our website at 555 00:34:31.859 --> 00:34:35.639 umc.org/compass. There you'll find episode 556 00:34:35.699 --> 00:34:39.320 notes and just a treasure trove of meaningful discussions 557 00:34:39.540 --> 00:34:43.295 to to guide your spiritual journey. We're grateful to the dedicated 558 00:34:43.355 --> 00:34:46.655 team at United Methodist communications for making this podcast 559 00:34:46.715 --> 00:34:50.155 possible. And we appreciate all their hard work behind the 560 00:34:50.155 --> 00:34:53.850 scenes. Before we go, we'd like to invite you to subscribe to our 561 00:34:53.850 --> 00:34:57.690 podcast if you haven't already. It's a great way to stay connected and to 562 00:34:57.690 --> 00:35:01.530 ensure that you don't miss any of our future episodes. Also, if you 563 00:35:01.530 --> 00:35:05.370 could take a moment to rate and review us, it would really help 564 00:35:05.370 --> 00:35:09.185 us to reach more people with Compass. So thank you for spending 565 00:35:09.185 --> 00:35:12.785 this time with us today. Until next time, journey 566 00:35:12.785 --> 00:35:16.165 well and find the sacred. I need you every day. Peace.