WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.599 --> 00:00:05.120 Hi, and welcome to Compass Finding Spirituality in the 2 00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:08.880 Everyday. My name is Ryan Dunn. I got to sit down with Hunter 3 00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:12.099 Mobley, author, spiritual teacher, and Enneagram 4 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:16.175 expert to explore the journey from performance 5 00:00:16.315 --> 00:00:19.855 driven faith to a soul centered spirituality. 6 00:00:20.395 --> 00:00:24.235 Hunter opens up with us about his roots in evangelical and 7 00:00:24.235 --> 00:00:27.990 Pentecostal Christianity, the burnout that inspired his 8 00:00:28.070 --> 00:00:31.750 shift toward a more contemplative spiritual life, and 9 00:00:31.750 --> 00:00:35.370 how discovering the Enneagram became a pathway to deeper 10 00:00:35.670 --> 00:00:38.970 self awareness and transformation. Together, 11 00:00:39.270 --> 00:00:42.730 we discussed the ways our personalities shape our 12 00:00:42.895 --> 00:00:46.115 spiritual practices and why letting go is central 13 00:00:46.575 --> 00:00:50.355 to true interchange and how simplifying 14 00:00:50.575 --> 00:00:54.275 life creates space for the surprising movement of the spirit. 15 00:00:54.575 --> 00:00:58.350 Whether you're new to something like the Enneagram or you've 16 00:00:58.350 --> 00:01:02.030 been on your own journey of spiritual deconstruction, this 17 00:01:02.030 --> 00:01:05.710 conversation is an invitation to explore the beauty 18 00:01:05.710 --> 00:01:09.550 of living from the soul and embracing the holy in 19 00:01:09.550 --> 00:01:13.175 everyday moments. If conversations like this are valuable to you, 20 00:01:13.475 --> 00:01:17.235 do us a kindness and leave a rating and review on your 21 00:01:17.235 --> 00:01:20.994 podcast listening platform. That really helps us connect with other 22 00:01:20.994 --> 00:01:24.835 potential podcast guests and helps us to understand what's important 23 00:01:24.835 --> 00:01:28.649 to you, our listener. Hunter Mobley's book is Letting 24 00:01:28.649 --> 00:01:32.170 Go Finding You. You can find out all about Hunter 25 00:01:32.170 --> 00:01:35.770 Mobley and check out more resources on the Enneagram at 26 00:01:35.770 --> 00:01:39.530 huntermobley.com. So let's meet Hunter here on 27 00:01:39.530 --> 00:01:40.670 the Compass podcast. 28 00:01:45.174 --> 00:01:48.454 Well, Hunter, thanks for joining us in what's been a little bit of a crazy 29 00:01:48.454 --> 00:01:51.895 season around Nashville. We've been awfully wet. How is your 30 00:01:51.895 --> 00:01:55.575 internal state? How goes it with your soul? Thank you, Ryan. I'm so 31 00:01:55.575 --> 00:01:59.390 glad to be joining you. I appreciate the invitation to be on this podcast. I 32 00:01:59.390 --> 00:02:03.150 am I'm excited. My internal state is is pretty 33 00:02:03.150 --> 00:02:06.910 pretty enthusiastic in this moment. There's just a lot of good work 34 00:02:06.910 --> 00:02:10.455 to do, good work that I'm having the opportunity to do and excited to 35 00:02:10.615 --> 00:02:14.075 to get this book out into the world that we're talking about some today. So 36 00:02:14.775 --> 00:02:18.615 in the midst of a strange cultural zeitgeist moment where 37 00:02:18.615 --> 00:02:22.375 where so much is happening around us in our families, in our 38 00:02:22.375 --> 00:02:25.035 community, in our culture, in our church, in our world, 39 00:02:26.569 --> 00:02:30.189 there is a a sense of inner joy and excitement as well. So, 40 00:02:30.650 --> 00:02:34.250 I guess I'm I'm kinda sitting in the in the balance of all those things, 41 00:02:34.250 --> 00:02:37.695 but excited to be here with you today. Cool. Well, thank you. 42 00:02:38.255 --> 00:02:42.095 Speaking of the book and some of the names that you check-in there, it's clear 43 00:02:42.095 --> 00:02:45.855 to me that we share some some modern day influences. Like, I was 44 00:02:45.855 --> 00:02:48.435 reading about Barbara Brown Taylor and Brian McLaren. 45 00:02:49.215 --> 00:02:52.700 However, I think our our Christian spiritual backgrounds 46 00:02:52.840 --> 00:02:56.520 may differ slightly because you open up the book and talking about 47 00:02:56.520 --> 00:03:00.200 five point spirituality. Yes. And I don't know what that is. So was 48 00:03:00.200 --> 00:03:04.004 that a big part of your spiritual development? Yeah. You know, what I 49 00:03:04.004 --> 00:03:07.844 what I describe as five step spirituality in the book is really a a way 50 00:03:07.844 --> 00:03:11.525 of kinda making meaning to the evangelical Pentecostal background that 51 00:03:11.525 --> 00:03:14.584 I I grew up in. So I was raised in Southern Baptist Church, 52 00:03:15.730 --> 00:03:19.410 I migrated at some point toward more of a Pentecostal experience where I 53 00:03:19.410 --> 00:03:23.090 had the opportunity to pastor a Pentecostal church for six 54 00:03:23.090 --> 00:03:26.850 years in the Nashville area. But, really, 55 00:03:26.850 --> 00:03:30.094 when I when I talk in the book about five step spirituality, I think so 56 00:03:30.094 --> 00:03:33.155 much of my spiritual background in life was really about 57 00:03:33.775 --> 00:03:37.135 sort of this take the hill. We're gonna do big things for God. We're gonna 58 00:03:37.135 --> 00:03:40.575 figure out what the steps are. It's gonna be really hard. You 59 00:03:40.575 --> 00:03:44.400 know? Buckle up, buckle in, but it's gonna be amazing. 60 00:03:44.620 --> 00:03:48.060 And and that was really so much of the the spiritual 61 00:03:48.060 --> 00:03:51.740 ethos that came from my evangelical experience. And 62 00:03:51.740 --> 00:03:55.340 so I I you know, I think a lot of my spiritual past 63 00:03:55.340 --> 00:03:58.845 was I thought, gosh. I gotta work really hard and try to do some big 64 00:03:58.845 --> 00:04:02.205 things for God, and I gotta try to figure out all the the ways and 65 00:04:02.205 --> 00:04:05.405 the steps. And we're gonna go up the hill, and it's gonna be tough, but 66 00:04:05.405 --> 00:04:09.165 it's gonna be exciting. And, and so, right, I found 67 00:04:09.165 --> 00:04:12.980 myself late in the game to more of a 68 00:04:12.980 --> 00:04:16.360 contemplative approach to spirituality, integrating some other 69 00:04:16.740 --> 00:04:20.440 ideas of thinking about matters of the soul and matters of 70 00:04:20.740 --> 00:04:24.040 of spiritual practice. And so I've had to unlearn 71 00:04:24.660 --> 00:04:28.115 a lot of the what for me was more of an 72 00:04:28.115 --> 00:04:31.794 ego driven sense of, hey, you know, thank 73 00:04:31.794 --> 00:04:35.235 goodness that that, you know, God's got me here to do some really big 74 00:04:35.235 --> 00:04:38.775 things for him. And that's kinda what I, 75 00:04:39.450 --> 00:04:43.290 you know and and hopefully a a way that's relatable and 76 00:04:43.290 --> 00:04:46.970 also a way that we can find our own pathway into describe as that 77 00:04:46.970 --> 00:04:50.810 five step spirituality that that characterized so much of my life 78 00:04:50.810 --> 00:04:53.950 really before a contemplative journey began. 79 00:04:55.155 --> 00:04:58.914 You know? Okay. So, actually, I feel like I do share that kind of 80 00:04:58.914 --> 00:05:02.134 spiritual life, at least in having that expectation of, 81 00:05:03.074 --> 00:05:06.514 needing to do the work. Yeah. And and if big things aren't 82 00:05:06.514 --> 00:05:10.360 happening, this is where the trap comes in. You talk about it being ego 83 00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:14.060 driven, then I must be missing something. Like, my faith 84 00:05:14.120 --> 00:05:17.340 isn't enough. It it says some of what you started to run up against. 85 00:05:17.800 --> 00:05:21.555 Yes. Absolutely. And I think I think, Ryan, I imagine from any of 86 00:05:21.555 --> 00:05:24.935 our kind of Christian spiritual backgrounds, all of us that are 87 00:05:25.315 --> 00:05:29.075 in the American South and in just The United States are 88 00:05:29.075 --> 00:05:32.835 are steeped in some version of this 89 00:05:32.835 --> 00:05:36.569 sort of take the hill, the the the chart is always going up, 90 00:05:38.330 --> 00:05:41.789 kind of method and mentality to spirituality. 91 00:05:42.090 --> 00:05:45.849 And ultimately, you know, there's everything contains 92 00:05:45.849 --> 00:05:49.405 its opposite. I mean, that's certainly what the Enneagram teaches us. I think that's what 93 00:05:49.405 --> 00:05:53.245 a lot of spirituality teaches us. There there's two things can be true. Everything 94 00:05:53.245 --> 00:05:56.845 contains its opposite. There's a lot of wonderful things that 95 00:05:56.845 --> 00:06:00.605 that I experienced in my faith life 96 00:06:00.605 --> 00:06:03.665 growing up and and in my early adulthood. 97 00:06:06.110 --> 00:06:09.870 But I think that what was under tended to and underdeveloped were matters of the 98 00:06:09.870 --> 00:06:13.250 soul and really matters of fundamental personal 99 00:06:13.389 --> 00:06:17.229 self transformation. So, you know, there was so much that 100 00:06:17.229 --> 00:06:20.955 I I think I was felt like I needed to do for 101 00:06:20.955 --> 00:06:24.655 God. Mhmm. And, there a lot of that was misguided 102 00:06:24.875 --> 00:06:28.415 as well in in hindsight. But even the good 103 00:06:29.115 --> 00:06:32.875 impulse of that may 104 00:06:32.875 --> 00:06:36.580 have been producing or trying to produce good fruit in 105 00:06:36.580 --> 00:06:40.199 some way, but the soul still remains kinda untended 106 00:06:40.340 --> 00:06:43.940 to. And so that's where I really 107 00:06:43.940 --> 00:06:47.620 found myself in in a stage where I 108 00:06:47.620 --> 00:06:51.065 needed to explore spirituality that was 109 00:06:51.065 --> 00:06:54.825 was committed to looking at the inner life and the inner witness and 110 00:06:54.825 --> 00:06:58.665 seeing what was really going on with my soul and the development of my 111 00:06:58.665 --> 00:07:02.425 soul. And that's where I found my my path and my my 112 00:07:02.425 --> 00:07:06.229 journey toward contemplation. What inspired that shift in mindset? 113 00:07:06.610 --> 00:07:10.229 Were you burning out? All sorts of things. 114 00:07:10.690 --> 00:07:14.470 Burning up, burning out, burning through. You know? 115 00:07:15.970 --> 00:07:19.815 Goodness, Ryan. So many things. I'll say 116 00:07:20.515 --> 00:07:24.035 some personal things and some kind of larger corporate things. For 117 00:07:24.035 --> 00:07:27.735 one, I was pastoring a large evangelical megachurch 118 00:07:27.795 --> 00:07:31.315 in its second life, meaning that in a 119 00:07:31.315 --> 00:07:34.615 season where sort of the big parade had passed by. 120 00:07:35.860 --> 00:07:39.560 And so what what we were what we were always tasked 121 00:07:39.699 --> 00:07:43.380 with doing from our congregants and 122 00:07:43.380 --> 00:07:47.139 sort of even just from ourselves as leaders of this church was 123 00:07:47.139 --> 00:07:50.775 feeling like, where can we find the new rabbit to 124 00:07:50.775 --> 00:07:54.375 pull out of the hat to turn the clock back to be 1993 125 00:07:54.375 --> 00:07:58.135 again? Yeah. And, of course, you know we all 126 00:07:58.135 --> 00:08:01.095 know that there is no rabbit to pull out of the hat to turn the 127 00:08:01.095 --> 00:08:04.780 clock. And and also, at the same time, thank goodness, there's no 128 00:08:04.780 --> 00:08:08.300 rabbit to pull out of the hat to turn the clock back to 1993 again. 129 00:08:08.300 --> 00:08:12.140 But so I've been I've been spending so many years just trying to 130 00:08:12.140 --> 00:08:15.040 figure out how could we restart, 131 00:08:15.740 --> 00:08:19.005 and reignite this kind of evangelical 132 00:08:19.225 --> 00:08:22.985 mega experience in a way that we had it ten or 133 00:08:22.985 --> 00:08:26.505 fifteen years ago? And, man, it just beat me 134 00:08:26.505 --> 00:08:30.105 up, and and I was tired because, you know, 135 00:08:30.105 --> 00:08:33.240 there are it's really a futile 136 00:08:33.700 --> 00:08:36.280 experiment, because 137 00:08:37.460 --> 00:08:40.820 world evolves, churches evolve, neighborhoods have evolved, 138 00:08:40.820 --> 00:08:44.260 Nashville's evolved, faith has evolved, all it's good. You know, we we all 139 00:08:44.420 --> 00:08:47.265 there's so much good in all that. And then personally, 140 00:08:48.605 --> 00:08:52.365 Ryan, I was on a a personal journey of self exploration of my 141 00:08:52.365 --> 00:08:55.185 own personal life, my own sexuality. 142 00:08:56.045 --> 00:08:59.825 I've been, you know, a person who'd been raised in a very 143 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:03.760 traditional context and had had to suppress my 144 00:09:03.760 --> 00:09:07.520 own just inner sense of my sexuality as a 145 00:09:07.520 --> 00:09:11.280 gay man. And at some 146 00:09:11.280 --> 00:09:14.905 point in life, it just I kinda looked up and thought, why am I doing 147 00:09:14.905 --> 00:09:18.505 this? What what is all this about? What is all this for? So I'd 148 00:09:18.505 --> 00:09:22.205 say things in in the cultural zeitgeist, 149 00:09:22.665 --> 00:09:26.265 in the church that I was serving and had served in 150 00:09:26.265 --> 00:09:29.100 my personal life in the world as I watched 151 00:09:30.280 --> 00:09:34.060 our country move more toward a Christian nationalism, 152 00:09:35.560 --> 00:09:39.320 iteration that just didn't resonate with my worldview or 153 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:42.975 spirit or so. All those things just made what I 154 00:09:42.975 --> 00:09:46.275 had felt so committed to in conservative, evangelical, 155 00:09:46.575 --> 00:09:50.415 Pentecostal spirituality in my first thirty 156 00:09:50.415 --> 00:09:53.875 years of life just feel like they no longer 157 00:09:54.015 --> 00:09:57.700 rang true for me. And so I found myself, 158 00:09:57.700 --> 00:10:01.160 like so many of us, in kind of that deconstructing reconstructing 159 00:10:01.460 --> 00:10:04.600 world, and, I still felt fundamentally 160 00:10:04.900 --> 00:10:08.740 compelled by the Christian story and the Christian experience and the life and 161 00:10:08.740 --> 00:10:12.135 the witness of Jesus and the way of Jesus. And so I 162 00:10:12.135 --> 00:10:15.975 wasn't ready to just throw it all out, but I felt 163 00:10:15.975 --> 00:10:19.515 compelled to to discover and discern if there was 164 00:10:19.575 --> 00:10:23.115 another way that I could hook into that story and that experience 165 00:10:23.735 --> 00:10:27.570 that was different from the way that I had hooked 166 00:10:27.570 --> 00:10:31.250 into it in the past. Well, tell me 167 00:10:31.250 --> 00:10:34.770 about coming to the Enneagram movement, the 168 00:10:34.770 --> 00:10:38.210 Enneagram mindset. It's it's, your work now is 169 00:10:38.210 --> 00:10:41.925 so ensconced in that area. So It is. When 170 00:10:41.925 --> 00:10:45.685 did that come about? Well, you know, it's kinda perfect. So I Ryan, I'm an 171 00:10:45.685 --> 00:10:49.285 Enneagram two. And so, any your listeners 172 00:10:49.285 --> 00:10:52.885 who follow the Enneagram will know that Enneagram twos are 173 00:10:52.885 --> 00:10:56.725 relationship people. We're we're connectors. We like to make relationships. We like to 174 00:10:56.725 --> 00:11:00.430 meet people. And, you know, that's our blessing and 175 00:11:00.430 --> 00:11:04.190 our curse in many ways. But so the way that I was first 176 00:11:04.190 --> 00:11:07.650 introduced to the Enneagram was through a relationship. I was seated 177 00:11:08.030 --> 00:11:11.470 at a dinner table next to Suzanne and Joe Stabile in Boca Grande, 178 00:11:11.470 --> 00:11:14.894 Florida, and I'd never heard the word Enneagram. 179 00:11:15.834 --> 00:11:19.595 We'd never met each other. We were just simply seated by friends 180 00:11:19.595 --> 00:11:23.134 next to each other at a dinner party. And as an Enneagram 181 00:11:23.194 --> 00:11:26.954 two myself, sitting next to an Enneagram two, Suzanne Stabile, 182 00:11:26.954 --> 00:11:30.500 who I later come to know what twoness means. We 183 00:11:30.500 --> 00:11:34.020 just naturally connected, and, we became 184 00:11:34.020 --> 00:11:37.160 friends. And that friendship continued 185 00:11:38.100 --> 00:11:41.845 beyond that evening, and it was through that friendship that, you 186 00:11:41.845 --> 00:11:45.545 know, what do you do for a living? What do you what do you teach? 187 00:11:45.765 --> 00:11:49.605 And I heard the word Enneagram for the first time. So, it's 188 00:11:49.605 --> 00:11:53.285 kinda funny and, I think, perfect for me that as an Enneagram too, I 189 00:11:53.285 --> 00:11:57.040 came to a knowledge and an awareness of this tool, really, 190 00:11:57.040 --> 00:12:00.740 first through a friendship. And and, Ryan, it resonated 191 00:12:00.800 --> 00:12:04.560 with me. Once I learned the Enneagram, it resonated with 192 00:12:04.560 --> 00:12:08.180 me as something that was true and something that I needed. And 193 00:12:08.765 --> 00:12:12.445 it's connected to all that we've talked about so far because so much of 194 00:12:12.445 --> 00:12:16.205 my life was disconnected from sort 195 00:12:16.205 --> 00:12:19.805 of an inner journey for many reasons. One, I was afraid to take too deep 196 00:12:19.805 --> 00:12:23.325 of an inner journey of what would I find and what conclusions would I come 197 00:12:23.325 --> 00:12:27.009 to, and then what would what would that mean 198 00:12:27.009 --> 00:12:30.449 that I was invited to bear out, and how would 199 00:12:30.449 --> 00:12:34.129 that, connect me or disconnect me 200 00:12:34.129 --> 00:12:37.814 with communities that I've been a part of. And and so, you know, I 201 00:12:37.814 --> 00:12:41.654 was hungry for that, but but frightened of that in some ways. And the 202 00:12:41.654 --> 00:12:45.435 Enneagram just invites us inside. It's a tool that invites us to go 203 00:12:45.894 --> 00:12:49.495 look inside and mine a little bit 204 00:12:49.495 --> 00:12:53.240 deeper what's there. And, ultimately, I think the Enneagram 205 00:12:53.700 --> 00:12:57.080 has the potential, if we will let it, 206 00:12:57.300 --> 00:13:01.000 to lead us deeper inside to actually rediscover 207 00:13:01.140 --> 00:13:04.785 and become reacquainted with the things of the soul. And and so that's 208 00:13:04.785 --> 00:13:08.305 why I'm passionate about it, and that's why I teach it now and travel the 209 00:13:08.305 --> 00:13:11.904 country and and speak to people about it because I think that it's a 210 00:13:11.904 --> 00:13:15.584 tool that has the potential for personal and 211 00:13:15.584 --> 00:13:16.565 soul transformation. 212 00:13:19.640 --> 00:13:23.240 We talk about the Enneagram fairly consistently on this podcast, 213 00:13:23.240 --> 00:13:26.840 but never with in-depth. Like, most of the time, it's just coming out as our 214 00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:29.500 guests come on. They'll say, oh, well, I'm an Enneagram 215 00:13:30.680 --> 00:13:34.255 number blank. I'm an Enneagram nine, by the way. 216 00:13:35.035 --> 00:13:38.395 But for for the uninitiated or the under, 217 00:13:39.355 --> 00:13:43.035 under underexposed, could you give us kind of a brief overview 218 00:13:43.035 --> 00:13:46.760 of of Enneagram? Absolutely. The Enneagram is is really a 219 00:13:46.760 --> 00:13:50.600 personality system, not unlike some of the others. Lots 220 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:54.360 of people have encountered or bumped up against some of the Myers Briggs or 221 00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:57.714 strength finder or DISC or Berkman, or are you an Otter, 222 00:13:57.714 --> 00:14:01.475 Tiger, Lion, Golden Retriever? You know? Go I'm raising my 223 00:14:01.475 --> 00:14:04.995 hand with the Golden Retriever. And, all of those 224 00:14:04.995 --> 00:14:08.640 systems are really interesting and good and have something to give us. 225 00:14:08.800 --> 00:14:12.560 They all really give us a language for describing things about the way 226 00:14:12.560 --> 00:14:15.860 that we see and the way that we respond and the way that we 227 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:20.160 interact with other people. What is interesting and I think 228 00:14:20.160 --> 00:14:23.540 compelling about the Enneagram is the Enneagram 229 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:27.435 really comes to us as one of those systems with a basis 230 00:14:27.495 --> 00:14:31.334 in, spirituality. Really, in 231 00:14:31.334 --> 00:14:35.095 many ways, the Enneagram is based upon the nine passions by one of the desert 232 00:14:35.095 --> 00:14:38.930 mothers or fathers of Agarus Ponticus, who is doing work 233 00:14:38.930 --> 00:14:42.390 in the third and fourth century around nine different ruling forces 234 00:14:42.450 --> 00:14:46.290 that sort of trip us up more often than than 235 00:14:46.290 --> 00:14:50.130 others. So, we've come to kinda know these nine passions really as the 236 00:14:50.130 --> 00:14:53.705 seven deadly sins plus two. Mhmm. You know, they're sort of in our in 237 00:14:53.705 --> 00:14:56.205 our language, in our cultural speak. 238 00:14:57.385 --> 00:15:00.905 Here's what's interesting and and worth exploring about the 239 00:15:00.905 --> 00:15:04.685 Enneagram to me. The Enneagram says, okay. We're gonna talk to you about personality, 240 00:15:04.905 --> 00:15:08.720 nine different ones. Nine different ways of seeing, nine different 241 00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:11.940 ways of interacting, nine different ways of being motivated 242 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:16.160 that are based upon those nine passions along with other kind of 243 00:15:16.160 --> 00:15:19.940 foundation stones that we could talk about, wounding, childhood messages, 244 00:15:20.714 --> 00:15:24.235 all sorts of things. But it says, we're gonna talk to you about 245 00:15:24.235 --> 00:15:27.834 personality because we actually believe there's 246 00:15:27.834 --> 00:15:31.355 something deeper to you than just personality. We believe you have a 247 00:15:31.355 --> 00:15:34.970 soul, an essence, a true self. Self. Whatever language feels right to you. 248 00:15:34.970 --> 00:15:38.649 As Christians, we might use language from the 249 00:15:38.649 --> 00:15:42.329 Bible and say the Christ in you are the Christ in me. The image of 250 00:15:42.329 --> 00:15:46.035 God that we bear. There's a truer iteration of each of us. And so the 251 00:15:46.035 --> 00:15:49.175 Enneagram comes to say, let's look at personality 252 00:15:50.195 --> 00:15:54.035 as a way of discovering whether that personality is sort of 253 00:15:54.035 --> 00:15:57.095 right sized or maybe whether it's oversized. 254 00:15:57.795 --> 00:16:01.370 Mhmm. And if we can explore it and get it to a 255 00:16:01.370 --> 00:16:04.750 place where it's a little bit right or sized, 256 00:16:04.970 --> 00:16:08.730 maybe not so oversized, then we actually have the 257 00:16:08.730 --> 00:16:12.410 potential to move through personality at moments and get to 258 00:16:12.410 --> 00:16:16.025 matters of the soul so that you and I, Ryan, in maybe 259 00:16:16.025 --> 00:16:19.545 fleeting moments of our day could have a soul to 260 00:16:19.545 --> 00:16:22.925 soul interaction, not just a personality to personality interaction. 261 00:16:23.465 --> 00:16:27.160 So I say all that to say what I think is compelling and 262 00:16:27.160 --> 00:16:30.459 interesting and fundamentally powerful about the Enneagram 263 00:16:31.160 --> 00:16:34.759 is it stands alone as a personality system that says, hey, we're 264 00:16:34.759 --> 00:16:38.440 talking about personality, not because we care all that much about 265 00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:42.245 personality, but because we care about the soul. And we want to 266 00:16:42.464 --> 00:16:45.845 we want to explore personality as a way of 267 00:16:46.144 --> 00:16:49.824 of moving through it to some deeper truer things, to 268 00:16:49.824 --> 00:16:53.345 some true self, to some essence, to some soul. So would you 269 00:16:53.345 --> 00:16:55.980 say it's a way 270 00:16:57.800 --> 00:17:01.320 of maybe identifying, kind of like a 271 00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:04.680 spiritual vision or a divine vision for your 272 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:08.119 life? It is. It's a way of well, to 273 00:17:08.119 --> 00:17:11.395 actually take that one step deeper, you know, I talked about the passions. 274 00:17:11.615 --> 00:17:15.295 Mhmm. There's a passion for each number, and that's really the 275 00:17:15.295 --> 00:17:18.835 language of personality. Yeah. The passions are 276 00:17:19.135 --> 00:17:22.619 anger and pride and the deceit and 277 00:17:22.619 --> 00:17:26.300 envy and greed and fear and 278 00:17:26.300 --> 00:17:30.080 gluttony and lust and sloth. And so 279 00:17:30.220 --> 00:17:33.900 one of those is is typed to each of the nine Enneagram numbers, and 280 00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:37.705 it really describes sort of what kind of trips us up 281 00:17:37.705 --> 00:17:41.325 in our personality most often. On the flip side, there's 282 00:17:41.385 --> 00:17:44.985 there's these nine virtues. And if you look at the 283 00:17:44.985 --> 00:17:48.365 virtue for each number, it's the opposite of the passion. 284 00:17:48.585 --> 00:17:52.190 Okay? So look at me for a second. I'm a two. My 285 00:17:52.190 --> 00:17:55.810 passion is pride, which is all about me as a two sort of 286 00:17:55.950 --> 00:17:59.730 wanting to under identify and represent my own need 287 00:18:00.270 --> 00:18:03.950 and overplay my role as, you know, 288 00:18:03.950 --> 00:18:07.565 the the savior, fixer, helper of the world. You know? Isn't it so good that 289 00:18:07.565 --> 00:18:10.125 I don't need anything today so that I can help you with all the things 290 00:18:10.125 --> 00:18:13.905 that you need? That's what that's pride for an Enneagram two. Well, 291 00:18:14.285 --> 00:18:17.920 the virtue for Enneagram two is humility. Pride and humility are 292 00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:21.440 opposites. They're really the 180 degree paradox of one 293 00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:25.200 another. Humility for Enneagram two is really my invitation to say, you 294 00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:28.260 know what? Ryan, I'm just as messed up as you. 295 00:18:29.895 --> 00:18:33.015 Not not saying, you know, I know your your paper, but, you know, I have 296 00:18:33.015 --> 00:18:36.855 to We've already established that. I'm just as messed up as you. 297 00:18:36.855 --> 00:18:40.295 And so let me share with you my problems and 298 00:18:40.295 --> 00:18:44.070 desires and fears and dreams, and you share with 299 00:18:44.070 --> 00:18:47.590 me your problems and fears and desires and dreams, and let's have a mutual 300 00:18:47.590 --> 00:18:51.190 reciprocal relationship that's not elevated by me 301 00:18:51.190 --> 00:18:54.710 putting myself in the seat of the helper or the fixer. That's 302 00:18:54.710 --> 00:18:58.305 humility for me as a two. Ryan, you as a nine, the the 303 00:18:58.305 --> 00:19:01.925 passion is sloth, but the the virtue is action. 304 00:19:02.145 --> 00:19:05.125 Well, sloth and action are are opposites as well. 305 00:19:05.825 --> 00:19:08.850 When you when you see the mystery 306 00:19:11.010 --> 00:19:14.530 Enneagram that the passions and the virtues are opposites of one 307 00:19:14.530 --> 00:19:18.049 another, what you learn from that 308 00:19:18.049 --> 00:19:21.890 is the virtue is connected to the soul, while the 309 00:19:21.890 --> 00:19:25.455 passion is connected to personality. The virtue 310 00:19:25.674 --> 00:19:29.355 is the truer thing. The personality and the 311 00:19:29.355 --> 00:19:33.195 passion is the false thing. Not bad and 312 00:19:33.195 --> 00:19:36.875 not not in a moral inventory sort of way false, just the opposite of 313 00:19:36.875 --> 00:19:40.690 true. And so the Enneagram comes to 314 00:19:40.690 --> 00:19:44.530 say, Ryan, even though you describe yourself as 315 00:19:44.530 --> 00:19:48.150 an Enneagram nine and you would use the language maybe of passion 316 00:19:48.210 --> 00:19:51.825 and personality to tell somebody how you see and 317 00:19:51.985 --> 00:19:54.804 how you're motivated and how you show up in the world. 318 00:19:56.465 --> 00:19:59.605 The deeper truth is that you're actually the opposite of that. 319 00:20:01.184 --> 00:20:04.465 Hunter, as an Enneagram too, even though I would come and talk about all this 320 00:20:04.465 --> 00:20:08.210 Tunis and all this pride stuff is how my personality shows up, the deeper 321 00:20:08.210 --> 00:20:11.970 truth is at the soul level, I'm the opposite of that. 322 00:20:11.970 --> 00:20:15.570 Okay. And that's the gift and the 323 00:20:15.570 --> 00:20:19.294 grace that the Enneagram can offer us to see 324 00:20:19.294 --> 00:20:22.975 that you are not your personality. In many ways, you 325 00:20:22.975 --> 00:20:26.595 are fundamentally the opposite of what your personality 326 00:20:28.174 --> 00:20:31.535 bears out. Now we've forgotten that because we've fallen in love with our 327 00:20:31.535 --> 00:20:35.080 personalities. We've come to rely on them. And so the 328 00:20:35.080 --> 00:20:38.780 Enneagram comes to us and invite us back 329 00:20:38.919 --> 00:20:42.760 to a process of rediscovery of who we really 330 00:20:42.760 --> 00:20:46.380 are. So it'd be fair to say then that I'll feel 331 00:20:46.905 --> 00:20:50.505 most alive or most, most 332 00:20:50.505 --> 00:20:53.985 spiritually connected when I am taking action Yes. 333 00:20:54.185 --> 00:20:57.945 Opposed to Exactly. It it exactly. Action is 334 00:20:57.945 --> 00:21:01.490 so fundamentally true about you. It's the most precious and 335 00:21:01.490 --> 00:21:05.169 vulnerable true thing about you. So in response to the 336 00:21:05.169 --> 00:21:08.929 world's trouble, which we encounter from day one, you learned 337 00:21:08.929 --> 00:21:12.769 to protect it and to hide it away. And what do we protect 338 00:21:12.769 --> 00:21:16.395 things with and hide them away with? Well, we protect them with their opposite. 339 00:21:16.395 --> 00:21:20.034 Opposite. So many times what we project is the opposite 340 00:21:20.034 --> 00:21:23.675 of what's true. And we've done that so 341 00:21:23.675 --> 00:21:27.515 long we kind of forgot. So I forgot that humility was there. 342 00:21:27.515 --> 00:21:30.735 You forgot that action really fundamentally was there. 343 00:21:31.190 --> 00:21:34.570 But as we find our way back toward 344 00:21:35.190 --> 00:21:38.790 those matters of the soul, you're exactly right, that's when we will 345 00:21:38.790 --> 00:21:42.570 feel most truly alive and most truly 346 00:21:42.790 --> 00:21:46.165 aligned with matters of the holy 347 00:21:46.945 --> 00:21:49.845 and vocation and fundamental calling. 348 00:21:52.705 --> 00:21:56.485 Well, in addition to talking about the enneagram fairly regularly, 349 00:21:56.545 --> 00:22:00.130 we we often share spiritual practices on this podcast. And, 350 00:22:00.750 --> 00:22:04.350 in letting go finding you, you you give a number of 351 00:22:04.350 --> 00:22:07.810 spiritual practices as examples in your work, 352 00:22:07.870 --> 00:22:11.570 in consultation with, people through this process. 353 00:22:12.154 --> 00:22:15.835 Do you find that certain Enneagram types lean 354 00:22:15.835 --> 00:22:19.375 towards certain spiritual practices? Absolutely. 355 00:22:19.674 --> 00:22:23.375 You know, we all kinda have we all have spiritual practices, 356 00:22:23.434 --> 00:22:27.179 I would say, in our Enneagram type that are easier 357 00:22:27.179 --> 00:22:30.460 for us or more accessible to us. And then we all have ones that are 358 00:22:30.460 --> 00:22:34.220 like, oh, gosh. You know, I hopefully, no one ever invites me to do 359 00:22:34.220 --> 00:22:37.820 that one. And and both of those pathways have 360 00:22:37.820 --> 00:22:41.279 something to offer us. Right? You know, there there's something for us in 361 00:22:41.515 --> 00:22:45.195 the practices that feel just like a 362 00:22:45.195 --> 00:22:48.815 warm cup of coffee, you know, on a rainy day in an armchair. 363 00:22:49.035 --> 00:22:52.715 Mhmm. And there's something for each of us in the practices that we 364 00:22:52.715 --> 00:22:56.170 just resist. So I 365 00:22:56.170 --> 00:22:59.770 think, Ryan, that where that comes up 366 00:22:59.770 --> 00:23:03.370 most often is it comes up really in the 367 00:23:03.370 --> 00:23:07.210 centers of intelligence that are associated and ordered within each of 368 00:23:07.210 --> 00:23:10.855 our Enneagram numbers. So we talk about with the Enneagram that 369 00:23:11.394 --> 00:23:14.774 each of us has thinking, feeling, or doing 370 00:23:15.154 --> 00:23:18.755 to rely on all day long. But based on our Enneagram number, one of those 371 00:23:18.755 --> 00:23:22.514 is sort of in first place, and one of those, it comes in 372 00:23:22.514 --> 00:23:26.360 last place. And so for each of us, 373 00:23:26.360 --> 00:23:29.900 there's one of thinking, feeling, or doing that we sort of rely on most, 374 00:23:30.280 --> 00:23:33.960 and then there's one of thinking, feeling, or doing that we sort of lives in 375 00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:37.715 the basement and we kind of pick up the least. And so 376 00:23:37.775 --> 00:23:41.055 I think for each of us in our Enneagram type, you know, I'm a two, 377 00:23:41.055 --> 00:23:44.575 so feeling sort of comes up first for me, and 378 00:23:44.575 --> 00:23:48.255 thinking lives in the basement. So that means, you 379 00:23:48.255 --> 00:23:51.710 know, any spiritual practices that kinda tap into 380 00:23:51.850 --> 00:23:55.230 art and beauty and feeling and transcendence 381 00:23:55.450 --> 00:23:58.809 and awe and reverence, you know, those things, man, I'm ready to hook into 382 00:23:58.809 --> 00:24:02.250 them. And I love them, and and I'm here for 383 00:24:02.250 --> 00:24:05.455 it. Spiritual practices that challenge 384 00:24:05.755 --> 00:24:09.215 my ways of thinking or that challenge 385 00:24:09.355 --> 00:24:12.794 me to think about things that are broader than just 386 00:24:12.794 --> 00:24:16.315 relationships and people and conversations and 387 00:24:16.315 --> 00:24:19.790 matters of the heart are a little 388 00:24:19.790 --> 00:24:22.610 bit less explored by me, but I need both. 389 00:24:23.790 --> 00:24:27.550 So I we all have that in our 390 00:24:27.550 --> 00:24:31.304 numbers. So if you, in your number, just look 391 00:24:31.304 --> 00:24:34.905 at and you can find it, you know, anywhere. What is the 392 00:24:34.905 --> 00:24:38.665 center of intelligence that's dominant for you and what's repressed for you? That's 393 00:24:38.665 --> 00:24:42.044 gonna give you some clues to what is 394 00:24:42.905 --> 00:24:46.520 both most accessible to you in spiritual work and also 395 00:24:46.520 --> 00:24:50.360 what maybe you're invited to go pick up in spiritual 396 00:24:50.360 --> 00:24:54.040 practice work. So, Hunter, what's a 397 00:24:54.040 --> 00:24:56.860 spiritual practice that you've been leaning into lately? 398 00:24:57.805 --> 00:25:01.405 Well, the number one one that I've been leaning into lately because I need it 399 00:25:01.405 --> 00:25:04.285 the most, and I kind of think we all need it the most, is centering 400 00:25:04.285 --> 00:25:08.125 prayer. It's hard for me because it challenges my thinking. Yeah. You 401 00:25:08.125 --> 00:25:11.690 know, in centering prayer, you sit for twenty minutes in a chair and you let 402 00:25:11.690 --> 00:25:15.130 go of thoughts and you settle your you settle on an 403 00:25:15.130 --> 00:25:18.889 intention to be totally open to the presence and activity of God that is 404 00:25:18.889 --> 00:25:22.649 unseen, and then you release thoughts for twenty minutes, and then you get up and 405 00:25:22.649 --> 00:25:25.675 you walk away. And you you don't 406 00:25:26.215 --> 00:25:29.895 seek or attach to the idea that, you know, this is gonna be my great 407 00:25:29.895 --> 00:25:33.655 moment of epiphany, or this is when I'm gonna finally figure out all the 408 00:25:33.655 --> 00:25:36.875 answers to all the questions I've been stewing over forever. Actually, 409 00:25:37.490 --> 00:25:41.250 if if epiphany comes, you let it go just like all the other 410 00:25:41.250 --> 00:25:43.750 thoughts. Well, that's hard for me because, 411 00:25:45.250 --> 00:25:48.550 my thought life is so occupied by 412 00:25:49.170 --> 00:25:52.265 people and what I need to do and what I said wrong and what I 413 00:25:52.265 --> 00:25:55.945 could do better and how I could who I need to connect with. And it's 414 00:25:55.945 --> 00:25:59.705 hard for me to to sit there and let the thoughts pass by 415 00:25:59.705 --> 00:26:03.545 like boats in a stream, and so I I 416 00:26:03.545 --> 00:26:07.250 need it. I want it. It's hard 417 00:26:07.250 --> 00:26:11.090 for me. It's one that I'm I teach a a cohort each 418 00:26:11.090 --> 00:26:14.610 year in Dallas on contemporary spirituality. So in that 419 00:26:14.610 --> 00:26:18.290 cohort right now between our last gathering and this gathering, we're focusing on 420 00:26:18.290 --> 00:26:22.015 centering prayer. So that's that's part of why I'm focused on that one especially. 421 00:26:22.875 --> 00:26:26.715 But that's one that I I offer that one to everybody as sort of 422 00:26:26.715 --> 00:26:30.315 the fundamental building block for contemplative spiritual practice. Start 423 00:26:30.315 --> 00:26:32.495 there. Start with five minutes, 424 00:26:33.990 --> 00:26:37.530 in a chair with an intention releasing thought, 425 00:26:37.670 --> 00:26:41.430 not looking for epiphany. And, I think that's kind 426 00:26:41.430 --> 00:26:44.550 of one of the ones that sort of is a building block for all the 427 00:26:44.550 --> 00:26:45.050 others. 428 00:26:48.695 --> 00:26:52.455 It's a great introduction to that, need to let 429 00:26:52.455 --> 00:26:56.075 go as well because as you mentioned, there's 430 00:26:56.934 --> 00:27:00.775 no result expected of No result. Prayer. Right? So and Well 431 00:27:00.987 --> 00:27:04.399 and and, Ryan, that's really why you know, it's funny. When I wrote this 432 00:27:04.399 --> 00:27:06.880 book, by the end of it, I was like, I don't know if I wrote 433 00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:10.720 an Enneagram book or if I wrote a contemplative spirituality book. And and 434 00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:14.115 and then I realized, oh, okay. Maybe that was the point. And it's because 435 00:27:14.675 --> 00:27:18.434 the first years that I was doing work with the Enneagram, I was still 436 00:27:18.434 --> 00:27:21.475 in kind of what we we talked about at the beginning is that sort of, 437 00:27:21.475 --> 00:27:24.995 you know, take the hill, you know, do big things for God, figure out, you 438 00:27:24.995 --> 00:27:28.295 know, the next conference, the next book, the new guru, kind of Christianity. 439 00:27:29.220 --> 00:27:32.580 And when we bring that approach to 440 00:27:32.580 --> 00:27:36.260 Enneagram work, when we're trying to, you know, okay, what can I do? 441 00:27:36.260 --> 00:27:39.400 What are the five steps I can make today as a two to be healthy? 442 00:27:40.340 --> 00:27:43.995 All we've done is is just layer on more personality because I'm still in 443 00:27:43.995 --> 00:27:47.355 charge. I'm still in control. I'm still trying to figure out what I can do 444 00:27:47.355 --> 00:27:50.495 in my ego to find change or transformation. 445 00:27:51.515 --> 00:27:55.275 So what I what I realized along the way is this isn't doing anything. 446 00:27:55.275 --> 00:27:59.030 You know, this is interesting, but it's not changing me 447 00:27:59.030 --> 00:28:02.710 from the inside out. And and so I realized that, woah, 448 00:28:02.710 --> 00:28:05.830 woah, woah. I I need a I don't need an active spiritual approach. I need 449 00:28:05.830 --> 00:28:09.510 a contemplative spiritual approach that's about going inside and letting 450 00:28:09.510 --> 00:28:13.235 go. That's about less, not more. That's about releasing, 451 00:28:13.375 --> 00:28:16.275 not taking on. That's the spiritual 452 00:28:16.895 --> 00:28:20.255 approach and the spiritual ethic that I believe 453 00:28:20.255 --> 00:28:23.790 fundamentally can lead toward the transformation that the Enneagram points 454 00:28:23.790 --> 00:28:27.630 to. So I I really believe these two tools, if 455 00:28:27.630 --> 00:28:30.850 you will, contemplative spirituality and Enneagram wisdom, 456 00:28:31.470 --> 00:28:35.070 are both not just tools that run on parallel tracks, but they're 457 00:28:35.070 --> 00:28:38.705 interwoven, interdependent. I don't 458 00:28:38.705 --> 00:28:42.145 fundamentally believe you can do any good 459 00:28:42.145 --> 00:28:45.825 work in the Enneagram on yourself through kind of a I'm 460 00:28:45.825 --> 00:28:49.345 gonna fix myself. I'm gonna figure it out. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do 461 00:28:49.345 --> 00:28:52.865 big things for God approach. I think the only way that 462 00:28:52.865 --> 00:28:56.530 we let the Enneagram lead us 463 00:28:56.530 --> 00:28:59.990 towards transformative soul growth and work 464 00:29:00.290 --> 00:29:03.890 is through saying, woah. I gotta I gotta shed some layers 465 00:29:03.890 --> 00:29:07.350 here. I gotta strip all of off all of this crap. 466 00:29:07.735 --> 00:29:10.794 I've gotta go deeper inside. I've got to 467 00:29:11.894 --> 00:29:15.674 let personality be released so that what is 468 00:29:16.054 --> 00:29:19.654 living behind it and beyond it, which is virtue, true self, 469 00:29:19.654 --> 00:29:22.400 soul, can actually begin to shine again. 470 00:29:24.940 --> 00:29:28.780 Well, less is more. We're in a season of of less is more. 471 00:29:28.780 --> 00:29:32.380 As we're recording this, it's the Lenten season, which people 472 00:29:32.380 --> 00:29:35.904 often observe by, practicing fasting, letting 473 00:29:35.904 --> 00:29:39.605 go of things. And you've tied simplicity 474 00:29:40.385 --> 00:29:44.065 with, part of letting go. Tell us a little bit 475 00:29:44.065 --> 00:29:47.830 about how you're practicing simplicity in these days. Yeah. 476 00:29:48.210 --> 00:29:51.970 You know, simplicity is one of the spiritual practices that I need the 477 00:29:51.970 --> 00:29:55.490 most. I need it in every area of life. And I you know, what I 478 00:29:55.490 --> 00:29:59.010 what I found for myself is I can practice simplicity in some 479 00:29:59.010 --> 00:30:02.715 really ways that seem very 480 00:30:02.715 --> 00:30:06.175 mundane but are still spiritually fruitful for me. So, like, here's a silly 481 00:30:06.315 --> 00:30:10.075 little way that I practice simplicity in this season. You 482 00:30:10.075 --> 00:30:13.855 know, we all have a closet of clothes that we wear, and 483 00:30:15.450 --> 00:30:18.650 this is a one thing that I've done in this season is I've just kinda 484 00:30:18.809 --> 00:30:22.090 you know, in this season, I'm I'm I'm not gonna I I I'm not gonna 485 00:30:22.090 --> 00:30:24.090 look at all these. I'm not gonna draw from all you know, I need to 486 00:30:24.090 --> 00:30:27.675 put half of these up. I I'm just I'm just gonna draw from these. 487 00:30:27.835 --> 00:30:31.135 Mhmm. Now that's a very little thing, Ryan. That's very specific 488 00:30:31.435 --> 00:30:35.275 to just a moment in my life. But it's any way that we 489 00:30:35.275 --> 00:30:39.035 can say, you know what? I'm gonna declutter life a little bit 490 00:30:39.035 --> 00:30:41.855 so that my attention and focus 491 00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:46.880 is freed to be on maybe some things that 492 00:30:46.880 --> 00:30:50.640 are different from what it traditionally is on. So sometimes in my 493 00:30:50.640 --> 00:30:54.480 office at home, I just I have to, like, take pictures off 494 00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:57.520 the wall. I have a sense of I've kind of a tendency to sort of, 495 00:30:57.520 --> 00:31:00.764 like, surround myself with totems and tobias 496 00:31:00.904 --> 00:31:04.585 and, you know, and and I'm just kinda oriented that way. And sometimes that's you 497 00:31:04.585 --> 00:31:07.945 know, I need a reset. I need to strip all this 498 00:31:07.945 --> 00:31:11.780 away. I need to look at the white walls for a little while 499 00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:16.020 and observe a simpler moment. I can do that in the way that I eat. 500 00:31:16.080 --> 00:31:19.840 I can do that in the way that I spend money. I can do that 501 00:31:19.840 --> 00:31:23.520 in my physical environment. It's a little thing, but it's a way that 502 00:31:23.520 --> 00:31:24.580 we can fast, 503 00:31:26.895 --> 00:31:29.955 And it's it's a way that I think our 504 00:31:30.255 --> 00:31:33.934 environment or our body can bear 505 00:31:33.934 --> 00:31:36.755 witness to really more of a soul 506 00:31:37.375 --> 00:31:41.149 principle of less is more. We don't need all the 507 00:31:41.149 --> 00:31:44.750 things that we have. When we have 508 00:31:44.750 --> 00:31:48.190 so much in our environment, in our eyesight, in our 509 00:31:48.190 --> 00:31:52.029 bodies, we are distracted. We are full 510 00:31:52.029 --> 00:31:55.445 in every way that we can be full, which allow which doesn't 511 00:31:55.445 --> 00:31:58.985 allow surprise, doesn't allow 512 00:31:59.445 --> 00:32:03.125 curiosity. Tell me a little bit about 513 00:32:03.125 --> 00:32:05.945 that surprise. How is simplicity, 514 00:32:07.205 --> 00:32:11.030 an invitation to surprise? You know, surprise 515 00:32:11.030 --> 00:32:14.150 is one of my favorite spiritual words, and it's kind of one of the parts 516 00:32:14.150 --> 00:32:17.990 of Pentecostalism that I keep. I think there are so many 517 00:32:17.990 --> 00:32:20.730 wonderful pieces of the Pentecostal 518 00:32:21.430 --> 00:32:24.924 charismatic tradition in in Christianity. 519 00:32:25.705 --> 00:32:29.544 And, like all iterations of Christianity, 520 00:32:29.544 --> 00:32:33.145 there's some harm too. But the the beauty is that in the 521 00:32:33.145 --> 00:32:36.825 Pentecostal charismatic tradition, there is an openness to 522 00:32:36.825 --> 00:32:40.200 the idea that today, I may walk out my door, 523 00:32:40.580 --> 00:32:44.179 and I may think that I know everything that's gonna happen today. I may 524 00:32:44.179 --> 00:32:46.740 think I know where I'm gonna go and who I'm gonna meet and what I'm 525 00:32:46.740 --> 00:32:50.100 gonna do and what I'm gonna accomplish, but maybe, just 526 00:32:50.100 --> 00:32:53.665 maybe, I'll be surprised. Mhmm. That's 527 00:32:53.665 --> 00:32:57.205 really the fundamental ethos behind the Pentecostal 528 00:32:57.425 --> 00:33:00.945 charismatic tradition, and it it it also is the 529 00:33:00.945 --> 00:33:03.605 fundamental ethos behind mysticism and contemplation. 530 00:33:05.860 --> 00:33:09.700 That transcendence all the holy will surprise us. It's around 531 00:33:09.700 --> 00:33:13.460 every corner. It's around every turn. God is under every rock. And 532 00:33:13.460 --> 00:33:16.600 so one of the ways 533 00:33:17.140 --> 00:33:20.855 that we posture our souls and our 534 00:33:20.855 --> 00:33:23.995 bodies for surprise is 535 00:33:24.455 --> 00:33:28.155 by freeing up space and room and time. 536 00:33:28.375 --> 00:33:32.135 You know, if every moment in my mind and in my day 537 00:33:32.135 --> 00:33:35.570 is full, full, full, full, full, well, 538 00:33:36.110 --> 00:33:39.730 I'm probably gonna miss a lot of the opportunity for surprise. 539 00:33:40.910 --> 00:33:44.450 And so that's how all this to me connects. That's how 540 00:33:44.510 --> 00:33:47.890 simplicity, subtraction, fasting 541 00:33:49.455 --> 00:33:52.835 also connects to the beauty of 542 00:33:52.895 --> 00:33:56.415 surprise and and charisma and 543 00:33:56.415 --> 00:34:00.175 mysticism and contemplation. It's all really it's 544 00:34:00.175 --> 00:34:03.950 a one thing. Have you felt a 545 00:34:03.950 --> 00:34:07.650 sense of surprise lately? You know, I have. 546 00:34:10.190 --> 00:34:13.870 I, so I have MS. That's just a a 547 00:34:13.870 --> 00:34:17.435 little part of my journey. And I as part of 548 00:34:17.435 --> 00:34:21.195 having MS, I have treatments every six months where I go in for kind of 549 00:34:21.195 --> 00:34:24.735 a full day of infusions. And, because 550 00:34:26.155 --> 00:34:29.835 I go in only every six months for that infusion, you know, by month four 551 00:34:29.835 --> 00:34:33.429 or five, you know, it's worn off, and I'm kinda in the 552 00:34:33.429 --> 00:34:37.029 tank. So for me, the month of February and most of 553 00:34:37.029 --> 00:34:40.549 March this year was I felt horrible. I 554 00:34:40.549 --> 00:34:44.250 was exhausted. I was just I was full up in every way. I 555 00:34:44.389 --> 00:34:46.089 I didn't really have any 556 00:34:48.344 --> 00:34:51.165 physical capacity for much. 557 00:34:52.665 --> 00:34:56.505 A couple weeks ago, you know, it was that kind of twice a year, six 558 00:34:56.505 --> 00:34:59.349 months sort of thing that I I do. And, 559 00:35:00.150 --> 00:35:03.450 man, I feel like a new person. Well, that's a little bodily 560 00:35:04.150 --> 00:35:07.589 example. You know, that's connected obviously to my body and my health 561 00:35:07.589 --> 00:35:11.190 experience, but it's been also a spiritual reminder of, oh my 562 00:35:11.190 --> 00:35:15.005 goodness. The world is in color again, and, and 563 00:35:15.005 --> 00:35:18.525 I I have energy again. And it's made me 564 00:35:18.525 --> 00:35:22.285 grateful for all of that. And so I've I've I've 565 00:35:22.285 --> 00:35:25.164 I've kind of the last couple weeks, I'm full of you know, I'm kinda ready 566 00:35:25.164 --> 00:35:28.720 to I've I it's I had gotten so used to not 567 00:35:28.720 --> 00:35:32.160 feeling good that I am ready to be surprised at every turn. 568 00:35:32.160 --> 00:35:35.839 Right. So, yeah, I I really 569 00:35:36.560 --> 00:35:40.385 Ryan, I am committed to still that 570 00:35:40.385 --> 00:35:44.065 Pentecostal charismatic tradition in many ways that, I 571 00:35:44.065 --> 00:35:46.965 carry with me from my past. And so 572 00:35:47.825 --> 00:35:51.185 my just way of seeing in the world is I really 573 00:35:51.585 --> 00:35:55.000 I walk out the door and I'm thinking, what the world am I gonna experience 574 00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:58.599 today? Who in the world am I gonna meet today? It's probably gonna 575 00:35:58.599 --> 00:36:02.140 be crazy and unexpected. I sort of live with that 576 00:36:03.640 --> 00:36:07.319 idea in mind, and I try to as well. You know, it's it's 577 00:36:07.319 --> 00:36:10.505 also a discipline to live with that idea in mind. 578 00:36:12.325 --> 00:36:16.005 Well, for folks who want to get to know you a little bit better, Hunter, 579 00:36:16.005 --> 00:36:19.685 or, check out some more of your work, is is your website a good 580 00:36:19.685 --> 00:36:23.285 starting place for that? It's a good start. Every you can kinda find me 581 00:36:23.285 --> 00:36:25.850 anywhere, a website, social media, 582 00:36:25.850 --> 00:36:29.630 enneagramhunter, enneagram hunter Com and enneagram 583 00:36:29.770 --> 00:36:33.450 hunter kind of social handles. And, you can also find me 584 00:36:33.450 --> 00:36:37.210 at Life in the Trinity Ministry. That that website, that's Joe 585 00:36:37.210 --> 00:36:41.045 and Suzanne Stabille's ministry. I teach a year long cohort 586 00:36:41.045 --> 00:36:44.885 with them in Dallas each year. And you the work that really we've talked about 587 00:36:44.885 --> 00:36:48.724 today, the work that I'm talking about in the book is the work that 588 00:36:48.724 --> 00:36:52.484 we do with 40 people each year in a in a year long 589 00:36:52.484 --> 00:36:56.220 experience there in Dallas. So I invite people to check that out and 590 00:36:56.220 --> 00:36:59.660 and think about if if you might feel led to come join us one 591 00:36:59.660 --> 00:37:03.260 year. Perfect. Well, Hunter, thank you so much for sharing your 592 00:37:03.260 --> 00:37:07.040 story with us and, for enlightening us in terms of 593 00:37:07.385 --> 00:37:11.145 the Enneagram, but also in the ways in which the spirit might introduce some surprise 594 00:37:11.145 --> 00:37:13.325 into our lives. Thank you, Ryan. 595 00:37:15.305 --> 00:37:18.845 Well, that wraps up this episode of Compass Finding Spirituality 596 00:37:19.145 --> 00:37:22.770 in the Everyday. A huge thanks again to Hunter Mobley for joining us and 597 00:37:22.770 --> 00:37:26.070 sharing such thoughtful insights about the Enneagram 598 00:37:26.450 --> 00:37:29.990 spirituality, the joy of surprise in our daily lives. 599 00:37:30.450 --> 00:37:34.210 If you'd like to dive deeper in anything we talked about or explore more 600 00:37:34.210 --> 00:37:37.895 episodes, be sure to visit our websitemc dot 601 00:37:37.895 --> 00:37:41.255 org slash compass. You'll find episode notes, 602 00:37:41.255 --> 00:37:44.635 resources, and a growing library of the conversations 603 00:37:44.935 --> 00:37:48.635 that we've had on the podcast. You know, just like this one, 604 00:37:48.855 --> 00:37:52.530 we're grateful to the team at United Methodist Communications for 605 00:37:52.530 --> 00:37:56.290 making this podcast possible and helping us bring these important stories 606 00:37:56.290 --> 00:37:59.730 to you. If you haven't already, please take a moment to subscribe to 607 00:37:59.730 --> 00:38:03.410 Compass wherever you get your podcasts. And if you found something really 608 00:38:03.410 --> 00:38:06.964 meaningful here today, we'd really appreciate it if you rated and 609 00:38:06.964 --> 00:38:10.644 reviewed the show. It helps, again, others find 610 00:38:10.644 --> 00:38:14.404 us and be a part of the conversation. So thank you so much for listening, 611 00:38:14.404 --> 00:38:17.924 for sharing this time. My name is Ryan Dunn. I'll chat at you again in 612 00:38:17.924 --> 00:38:19.224 a couple weeks. Peace.