Welcome to Compass, finding spirituality in the everyday. My name is
Ryan Dunn. In this episode, I sat down with Episcopal
Bishop Andy Doyle, author, church leader,
and as it turns out, an avid collector of
vinyl records. Bishop Doyle takes us behind the scenes of
his personal spiritual practices from the soulful
soundtrack that is currently shaping his days to the sacred
spaces that he carves out for retreat and reflection.
Bishop Doyle's latest book is Unabashed Faith, Resisting
Spiritual Forces in the Modern World, and I was
curious about how he would recommend spiritual
contemplation and retreat in an age when we're always on and
always connected, or at least when I feel a pressure to
be always on and always connected. So
how about you join us as we dive into the embodied
experience of faith and ask big questions about the role of
church and spiritual community in a so called
post religious society. From the ritual of dropping
a needle on a record to finding sacredness in ordinary places,
bishop Doyle invites us to imagine a church that's less
about institutional boundaries and more about belonging,
connection, and pilgrimage. Andy Doyle lives
in Houston, Texas. He is the ninth bishop of
the Episcopal Diocese of Texas, and he summarizes
his autobiography in just six words. Met Jesus on
pilgrimage, still walking. So pour yourself a cup of
coffee, settle in, and join us as we explore
the sacramental possibilities hidden in plain sight
with Bishop Andy Doyle. Bishop
Andrew Doyle, author, leader in the church,
collector of vinyl, I think I read. Is that still the case? That's
true. It is. Alright. Awesome. Then,
let's start off this way. Is there something that you've gotten recently that's in
heavy rotation that is speaking to your soul or
describing the the shape of your soul these days? I
hear the it's really interesting. I collect mostly,
the goal is to collect mostly classic rock
Yeah. And blues artists they were listening to. So I
have a real specific genre. But the
one that I've I've I have to be honest, the one I'm playing
right now a lot is Nation of Two by
Vance Joy. And, just as
gotten it's real soulful, the whole album is. It's
got a couple of songs that have done really well, but
I find that the kind of there's a
longiness in there that that has connected with me
inside that. I'm, looked up to kinda think about
what what would that look like if I were,
honest about it. And that's where that's what I'm listening
to. I have I have different things I like to listen to, but then I
also have this real, small
collection of stuff I like to write with, which is
is, also very much within that kind of genre.
Okay. It's just easy easy to kinda
go through. What is an example of one of your go to
writing records?
There is a,
the soundtrack so the
soundtrack for,
the movie, oh, you're gonna have to help me here. It had Bill
Murray in it, and they were undersea,
cinematographers.
Team Zisu was the name. You
That is a team time. Yes. I know. Really. Deep
nice. Nicely played. Yes. Yeah. So, anyway, it'll come to me in a
minute. But, yeah, that's, that's been the music on that
soundtrack introduced me to a bunch of foreign music I've
never listened to. And so and it just stayed
with me. And so I've added some to it, but
that, that basic soundtrack
was just amazing. And it's mostly a guy singing on a guitar
Oh, gotcha. On a guitar. That's it. I mean, it's not a lot of
band music. It's really Kind of the the simplistic,
conductive to contemplation style music. Right.
Well, we're gonna have to do a a quick turn here. Otherwise, we're
gonna go down a rabbit hole. We're gonna, like, explore, what'd you get a
record day and, you know, what was your cartridge like and all that stuff.
So Right. Let's switch to the theological, shall we? Although You got it. I'll tell
you what. I I feel like there is a bit of a carryover here in
that, you talk a lot about embodied practice. And
I think one of the things that led me back into engaging with
something like like vinyl records has been
the the physicality of it in in the sense that it's
not just making music something that I consume while I'm
doing something else, but in a sense, there's like a ritual to it and
dropping the needle and looking at the at the cover and
yeah. Holding out that gate fold and everything. So,
so let's talk about that embodied religious
experience a little bit. Now I wanna start with this.
Our our society is is probably termed a
post religious society.
So with that in mind, for those who are existing kind of
outside of the the space of institutionalized
religion, like, how might you describe the
importance of faith or the importance of religious experience to somebody like
that? Well, I think part one, one, and I'm
I'm I'm very interested in the in
that conversation about kind of the post religious society.
But to to narrow down on this question of embodiment,
we as we as human beings,
exist within a body.
And one of the things that we've we've had a
hard time with this humans is
seeing all bodies
as important to who a person
is. And typically, we've
we've kind of, turned the
body into an asset. So we
we speak about relational
economies. We talk about
labor force. Right? Mhmm. And
and and so we have a condomized the body
and at the same time we've kind of divorce the brain from the
body. But there's a whole cycle of
interest within science and research that's saying, wait a
minute, the brain doesn't operate alone at all.
And and in fact, it doesn't even operate
as a whole thing. It operates in relationship to
itself. And so within the body, kind of
to to just say that we're this very complex
creature, and that that complexity is
bumping into the world all the time. And that as
it bumps into the world, it's trying to make sense
of itself and the world around it.
And so if we think about religion in a much broader
sense as, for instance, like
Emile Durkheim would have referred
to religion in other ways other than the
form, that it takes in a church. Mhmm. We're
able to see, I think, we
a bodily experience and that we then can see
that actually we're not in a post religious time
period. We may be in a post Christendom,
where organized Christian religion doesn't hold as
much of the embodied religion as other things,
but people are on a spiritual quest. And if we
ask ourselves how are they doing this while they're walking the Camino,
they're going out into the wilderness and camping again.
Mhmm. They are seeking spiritual experiences
on mountain tops with groups of people. Like, our
bodies actually are needing something here
and that we are getting it from I actually think we get it
from the it's we don't get it from sports, but we get
it from being a part or the fandom
of sports. We get it from the fandom
of, RC cars. We get it from the
fandom of vinyl records. We get it from the like. These the
the things that we actually are gleaning from the world as
we've left kind of Christian Christianity
or, Islam or Judaism for this other thing,
it doesn't mean that we're not spiritual seekers. We actually are doing it
all the time. I think our body is really hungry for connection
connection, belonging. And when and I think part
of what the church doesn't do well is explaining that that's we're
actually doing something here that's very similar to that on a regular
basis. I think think the church has to stop hustling for it
and actually needs to begin to live in it in a different way.
But, yeah, I would just say, it doesn't matter who you are and where you
you know, if you're listening to this today, it doesn't matter what your
journey is at this moment. Actually, if you're listening,
this is part of that seeking, and I think that's
that's where the divine begins to do amazing things.
Do you feel like the church has participated in the
neglect of the body? Yeah. Sure. If you think about
think about the I mean, we can just talk about ourselves, but
the whole confessional movement, from the middle ages
as a response to kind of the scholasticism
ism all in your brain. Right? And we see these things pop up.
So in America, we saw two great awakenings,
right, where people have this spiritual experience
and then the church has to wrestle. Are you part of us, not part of
like so I do think that we we
have participated in this.
I think that part of what's happened is that
we got in our heads too much. We've been in our heads too much. And
that that's what's really getting in the way. And,
and certainly Jonathan Haidt and Ian,
McGilchrist talk about this. We spend a lot of time
in the thinking part of the mind. And so
we've been nurturing this thinking part, but there
really is another whole piece to us and
our bodies that's important. And so I think that's where the
church fell down. It's it's like the church kept doing what it was
doing, and we sold everybody on what it was doing. But
now what the hunger is, the church has to figure out how to talk
about what it does and then do what people
are looking for in a different way. So
it's not to reject, not not to, like, completely move into all
feeling. Right? There's a balance, I think, especially in our
traditions. Like, there's a balance, of
mindfulness as a Buddhist might say, but being able to talk,
think, but also be aware
of, where our bodies are. And and,
you know, I think you see this particularly in the conversations
Richard Rohr and others have been having around sacred space
and finding that. And you find sacred space in your house.
Right? Like, these are these are things we have we've forgotten to teach
people. Mhmm. You know, like, in the in the middle
ages, you would come on, feast day
and get your candles lit and take them
home to your home sacred space where you would put them
and you would light them during the time of thunderstorms to keep
your house safe from lightning. So this is what candle
mask was. But so Charles Taylor
talks a little bit about it philosophically as,
as white magic of the time. The church was involved. I would say
the church isn't involved in helping your home have sacred
community. Mhmm. And yet at the same time, probably one of the
most important things anybody, including myself, must do
is find sacred space in their life on a regular basis
for retreat from all of the connectedness and
everything else. And I think tending to the body's own desire
for rest and sabbatical Sabbath time. Right?
This quieting down. I think we have to reclaim some of that. And
certainly, this is in line with other people who are thinking out there. What
kind of sacred space have you claimed in your life?
So, I mean, there are a couple of different places. There's a retreat center that
I love to go to. I'm part of a a monastic,
community as a fellow that supports them but also retreats with
them. And and then in my home, there's
sacred space, a place to sit, a place that is a
place where I pray, and a a place where I can be
quiet. And that,
I think finding a thing, it's really important to our
bodies, it turns out to
to claim a space and then be in the space as a
regular part of life.
And that that routine actually helps us rest better
and pray better or be quiet better.
So in all the traditions, they would tell you, you
know, and and sometimes it's around the kit the dining room table, kitchen
table with your family, where you engage in
quiet prayer. Like, so it's it can be all kinds of
things. Again, the church has thought it had to be Sunday
morning for an hour. The church has got it. This is what this is
what this is the gift. This is the gift of what you call the
post religious moment. The gift is to remind ourselves, no way that the the
vine is everywhere. Mhmm. Sacred is everywhere. God is
speaking to us all the time through all kinds and manner
of things. It is it's, it's not
just, like God created one time and it's not that clock
maker. This is a God who's who's,
infused or saturated the world.
Right? And so all of us are speaking this language. We just don't know why
what to do with it when it comes to institutional religion, but I think we're
we're beginning to sort it down. We've got to listen too. We also have a
great gift. You know, groups like that
whether it doesn't matter which tradition you look at, Abrahamic
Asian, Eastern, all of them will
speak of this need for our bodies
to do this this work. So I think that's, and we have
wisdom about how to do it. So we ought to be sharing it and
not as, hey, I'll share it so you can come to my church. We ought
to share it because people are hungry for it. Yeah. And we know how to
do it. If they come, fine. If they don't, fine. Let us bless them on
a journey. How do we be a, you know, how are we a pilgrim,
hospital? Yeah. Right? The the old hospitalers were
not were not hospitals like we think today. They were respites. Yeah.
Places to stop on your journey. How do we how's the
church become that for people? I I've heard a That's a big
question. I've heard a term that the church can be,
maybe in a modern analogy, the the airport.
You don't come to the church as the destination. It's the stepping off
point for Right. Moving into that spiritual experience. We we've
talked a lot about our, our embodied spiritual
side of things. In the dualistic
sense, there's a mind component of who we are as well, which
creates the greater whole. In in Unabashed, you you
talked about some of the ways that, I don't know if it's fair to say
that we've disengaged the mind or retreated into the mind, but I was
particularly drawn to this phrase that you used about the Babylonian
captivity of the mind. Can you, talk with us a little
bit about what that means? Well, for those of you who
don't know, it it refers to a
time when people
were conquered and taken away
Mhmm. To Babylon, from their native land and
from their primary worship space.
And that, so that's what it refers
to. And many theologians over the years have used Babylonian
captivity to talk about this kind of separation
Babylonian Babylonian captivity to talk about how,
a set table that is God's how God provides
wine and bread for people to actually eat and
that you shouldn't withhold that from the people, right?
And so so so that's the kind of to help with some sense
of what I'm talking about there. And and what I would say is that we
have, the mind has been taken over
as the primary and only engaging part of our
body. And it's it's being
used quite literally used through social media,
and this kind of constant connectivity.
And, we've spent some time I think we spent some time
in trying to sort of how that works. How do we provide
just like those peep the people, the Jews who were taken
away. Right? That this that that they had to
figure out how to worship in that space of captivity. And so
we've tried some of that, but the truth is that I,
the prophet Isaiah who speaks to them says, no, you
know, come home, too. So there's also this
other piece that I think is that I think is really important
is is the being homeness in our in our own bodies and realizing
that we're not just a mind separate from,
but holistically. And I and I so I've I've I've
sensed that we've gotta reconnect our mind with our body in
a real in a in a way that that we haven't done
in a while. And so it's not just about quieting our body.
I mean, our mind. It's not just about quieting our mind. We actually have to,
like, be still.
And so much of what we're looking for, I think what I
look for, what I value, and I think people seem
to be hungry for is actually finding that connectivity.
And the truth is that connectivity is is related even
though you're on Zoom and I can't be in the room with you.
The the, the
space that we inhabit so is is important.
And our body, we need to claim the wholeness of that.
But we also need to realize that right now, economics is
based on getting our minds
engaged and the body to follow.
And sometimes we probably ought to be suspicious
Mhmm. Of how that data is mined,
you know, as a as a as an economic
force Mhmm. Tell me about that. By others. Right? So
so we really are, Zuboff
talks about, you know, this economy that's been
created, that we have just we just all participate
in and we give to generously of our time
without any payment back. Mhmm. And that
the truth is that only a few people in the world are gaining
from all of our participation in all of that. And so
what does that mean? And how do we reclaim that? And how
do we reclaim being together?
We used to say when when I first started ministry thirty years ago
that our parents didn't know how to argue, so the divorce rate went
up. They didn't know how to argue, reconcile, and
so they would they would move on. So we had generations of people,
latchkey kids, single parent homes, double parent homes, all
that kind of stuff happening, which still goes on today.
But today, I think what we've what we're inheriting
is a world that's mediated through screens.
And so, and which I do. I think it's part of
the work now, but we also need to learn
how to disconnect from them. And it's just as important as figuring out how
to mediate and become partners in life, whether it's
a group of people. So we have this massive force in our society,
I think, like, we could look at politics, division, all
that. If we just sat down at the table and began to actually get to
know each other, things would change. I mean, I've I believe it.
I really believe it. And so as long as we can kinda be
parceled out and used as percentage
numbers to gain more commitment from
others, I think we're I think our
minds are being abused in a way that our whole bodies are going to
suffer. Mhmm. And so the only way to reclaim that's gonna be
in togetherness. So you recognize that,
our commitment to the screens has, in a sense, drawn us away from
one another. And yet you also admit that, you know, you're still a participant
in the in the digital realm, so to speak. Do you have some practices
to recommend about disengaging then, finding that kind of spiritual
retreat from it? Yeah. I mean, I think the whole
the I mean, every time we have our
phone with us, that means that we are now able
to be contacted by our bosses.
We also are able to participate
with others in social media. Now social
media is feeding, as I've said, an economy.
So to not participate is actually to set this down.
So when I go home, a practice I have, I talk a little bit about
this in the book, we just set this down. I'm not gonna carry
it with me. Oftentimes, when my wife and I go out to dinner with people,
I don't I don't take it. She can take hers or we can put this
in the purse or whatever, but I'm not going to be attached to this while
I'm in relationship with people. How do we, you know, how I
was once with a person who's very wise, this in
this wonderful woman, who I respect dearly
said, how about we just be curious about that fact instead of
finding out what it is exactly. Right? Like, so
It's an incredible amount of patience, you know. Oh my god.
I will tell you the answer. It will take you a month
to walk in your house. If you really it's thirty days of practice. So if
you want thirty days of practice, you walk into the house, plug it in somewhere
in another room that you're not gonna be with the rest of your family and
leave it there. And do not use it until you
can check it before you go to bed. But like, that's the first thing is
like, how do we take Sabbath from it? And I'm on social media all
the time. So, you know, I don't wanna what what does it mean to sit
at at and watch a movie together on television, but I'm
on the phone. I'm not interacting with the movie or the people in the
room. I'm interacting like this. Yeah. And
and so I think that's the first piece. And so do you take this
into your sacred space in your home? No.
Can you leave it in the car when you go to church? If you go
to church? Yes. Can you if you're going to
your a studio to practice centering
prayer or to a chapel, can you leave it behind?
How do you I think this is a really big piece. It's not to say
it's bad in and of itself. It's just to say,
if we're the thing we're looking for actually can't be fulfilled bodily
when we're only seeing everybody through a flat surface. A
mediated this is a mediated surface.
So I I that's a piece is how do you so the
practice of being still in your own environment, the practice of sitting with
others, the practice of sitting in a park by yourself
with nothing, just being with the other people in the
park. They might be doing other things but there's that is something that's
happening. People will walk by and you can smell.
You can see the reading books and be curious. I mean like, a
whole you begin to take in a world that for
me, the divine is speaking through
directly in a way.
But every time we add a layer, we are separating
ourselves more. So if you think about the matrix,
some of, the Chalmers work on consciousness, we
begin to think about how these screens mediate us.
Baudrillard's philosophy of, you know, this is a
representation of us, but it's not really us,
in the room together. And so we this is good, but it
is mediated by something. Now take a still
pick. Right? And we capture this. We put it on the
podcast. Podcast gets shared through social media with the big thing,
shows the two of us talking, whatever.
Each step away has become a a repeated image that
loses what we could have had
in person. Right? So that's how you get
the matrix movie. Right? They're they're playing with Baudrillard's
Yeah. Philosophy. Right? The people the technology
moved so much away that you
you might prefer staying in the world Mhmm. That is
fake versus staying in the real world that is
dominated by a war. Right? Mhmm. Those of you who haven't seen
the Matrix movies. Spoiler. I think we're okay to spoil at this point. It's been
a while. At this point, yeah. That's on you all. Sorry.
Yeah. Yeah. But right, I
mean, this is why I think,
you know, this is why I think actually used clothing
and eBay and things like that where you can get your hands on things
that have been used. Right? Go on
eBay and you buy a pair of traveling pants. Right? You may
you may may not have ever seen that movie. Right? But the traveling
pants. Right? Like, you get these things that are worn and
used and have become beloved.
And this is again just a way in which
we're trying we're seeking for real connection.
I don't I don't I don't want a new jacket. Mhmm.
I want a jacket that was found in a garage
sale that an 80 year old wore for forty years and
has paint, little paint on it and some I mean, my gosh.
What a privilege to wear that person's jacket. And, you
know, there's stories in there. And that's what I think we're
seeking is is this with each other. I mean, you and I are engaging
it right now. This is this is it. And it would be just a
thousand times better except that we don't live in the same city. So we do
the best we can. Right? But I have a whole world here and you have
a whole world here that just is longing to be
touched and smelled and all of our
senses enlivened more and outside
and You talk about sacrament being a
form of resistance. Is is this part of what you mean
it's it's a resistance too? It is.
So I feel like anytime we
move towards each other or
and I think I'm just speak generally given our audience, right? I mean, I
think anytime we move towards people and are
willing to sacrifice to be there,
to be a part of the world
and maybe sacrifice some of our comforts
or change some of our comforts so that the world may exist in a
healthy way. Anytime we do any of that work,
we are resisting. And
we are the world is,
and we are vessels
of the conversation that
I think the divine wants to have with us. So I know I'm speaking
from my own faith perspective here, but I I believe
that's what's happening. And for me,
Sacramento life, the life of bread and wine,
of water of baptism, that language has a lot
of meaning for me, but it works the same way. It's
the way we would say it's closer. Like, it's
more articulated for the sacramental
church, the place where we imbibe and consume
and see the the water. Tertullian's really
ancient divine speaker said that the
water of bath baptism should be like like water we
live in and breathe and swim in
like little fishes. And so
it's just kind of an amazing way of thinking of
sacrament in that way. And I would argue
that humans, ultimately
left our own devices will seek
that Mhmm. In very real ways.
The phone, the all of this is just a substitute
for real in body human
relationship. It takes us away from
the original. Sometimes, like I've said, you
know, it's the best we can do. But we
need to remember that our lives really are sacramental
breathing places. And what the churches
do at their best is to say, ah, yes.
There it is. You've gotten it. You've it's not
about you becoming a member of this thing.
No. You're swimming in the waters of the divine.
Nice. This is what's going on for you, and you see it
too now. So we're gonna we're gonna, like, swim in
this water together, and I and I've done
it, and now you're gonna do it. And what we know is
that because people have seen that for us, that
swimming can't be taken away forever and ever.
That swimming in the water is true. And so I'm
just curious about that conversation and that
sacramental life. And I think when we
get together for a pub crawl and
we've got, like, the bread and the brew or
the the walk we've got people, friends of ours who are
walking, the Icknield Way in
England or the paths in England or walking and
hiking in park together. When you are doing that, those
are sacramental moments that the divine
speaks through. Now I think for me,
each each step away is not as as good as it is
with more people. But that's because when we're with more
people, our our guard has
us an opportunity to come down. Mhmm. And
so sometimes I think you have to start with the divine by
yourself, then maybe you got like one or two.
Right? Kind of that Vance Joy thing, a nation of two. Right? Like you
can begin to do that. Your guard comes down with
these partners in our lives, these parents or
substitute parents or, you know, substitute
brothers and sisters. I mean, that's all the church is. It's like recognizing.
We're just fumbling towards God together in
these spaces at our best. And,
anyway, I just think life is full of that and how
when we get I'm so grateful for that.
I'm grateful for the church I'm a part of, but not because it's the church.
I'm grateful because, you know, you and I are visiting
today. I mean, like, this is kinda kind of
amazing. Yeah. What other introduction would we have
had had it not been? Right? Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And I like where you're going
to because it, the
church can feel daunting for people, especially think in
thinking about the the institutional, side
of church. And so Right. The idea that that church maybe is
something that we, in broadening the idea of
church as being sort of the community of people who are on this spiritual journey
together. You know, it's something that we we snowball our
way easily into just by broadening a sense
of connection. Am I on the right path here? Okay.
I have a friend who says, why are you so down on the institution?
As he said, you know, movements movements require
organization. And that's true. Mhmm. That's
true. There's no question about it. When you start getting more and more people and
you wanna do things together, it requires organization.
But the organization should always serve the
very basic piece Yeah. Of that life
together. And when it stops serving that, then the organization
needs to reform itself a little bit. And unfortunately, organizations
don't like to do that. But, they or they Yeah. They
don't. They don't. They don't like change. And so so there's they
struggle. They struggle. But at the core,
and that and this is I mentioned this in this book that, you
know, finding the place that you need for its time or a
season may not be the place that you walk in the
door the first time. You may want a real quiet
service. I so I think people ought to really look for, you
know, these kind of things. And if the church doesn't feel like
coming together, then by all means, go. And if it becomes
hurtful, go. I mean, there's you know, you're free.
We're free. And sometimes I don't think we support each other in
that freedom enough because we
we regress into wanting to support the organization. But we
should always remember the organization, like we talked about the
very beginning is is like this pilgrim
hut, where we can sit down for a while
together and put some, plasters on our on
our, aching toes. And
I was really formed by my own journey in pilgrimage. I
I, as a child when I went with my dad early on
to travel about 20 to 30
miles a day on foot to, from the town we lived in
to, the town of San Juan De Los Lagos,
in Mexico. And and so those
are I just that's a those are powerful
images. And I think when you sit down with
our friends at a table and break bread together,
it's not the same as it might be in the church.
But isn't that what we're also doing? I mean, I think as
for me, it it moves
into that space. When we break bread something happens
when we eat together. And eating is messy by the way. It is. Right? I
think that's right. Get it all over you. I think it's the vulnerability of that.
It is. It's so right. And I know that not
everybody is, I'm an extrovert. I know that not everybody
is, you know, really does this. Some people need a lot
more more alone time to be able to do the other.
But even monastics recognize
that that you have to be with others.
The only ones who don't are solitaries who live off by
themselves. It's a very particular small group, right, of
divines who are able to to do
that particular spiritual work. So
those all of those are just organizational models for what we're talking
about in general for, you know, the people that
we're talking with today. They're sitting there. They're listening listening to us. It's
great to have you on the podcast and wherever you are
in your journey. Right? But we're just going along
together. The spiritual practices provide a a sense of going
along. And, of course, pilgrimage is a wonderful example of that,
and is a spiritual practice. In in Unabashed,
you you lift up a spiritual practice with every chapter.
Was there one that maybe you discovered
in the process of putting this book together? The one
that that I will tell you, and it's the one we've already talked about,
that, I found that I had I had
a rule about my phone. I had a rule of life about my phone that
I had done successfully for a long time and I had
gotten away. And so the book, you know, what the book describes is
something I had done for years. But but
we all might remember except unless you're really
young, this is a new technology, so it's taken in
my lifetime. Right? So considering that I had a
beeper when my first child was born in in the nineties. Right?
So so it's it's been a slow move, but
with that move and its expansion, I found
I've been on the phone more. Right? I can't let go of it more. Like,
all of that, I need to know what's happening more. My wife wife calls it
doom scrolling. She one of her spiritual practices is to
post every day a rest from the what
is it? Rest weary traveler from your doom
scrolling meme. Mhmm. Right? And she puts a cool picture up every day. But
like that's a whole to so I had to
reengage. It's like, oh man, I can't talk. I need to be doing this. It
was so good when I did it and it's fantastic
And it can be lonely when other people around you don't do it, but that's
okay. Yeah. I think it's okay.
Yeah. Be the first to start the snowball. Yeah. It's okay.
It's okay. Just start over. Yeah. Start over. I
don't think I just think, come on. We gotta give each other a break. We're
just we are not gonna be perfect in this
life and the spiritual discipline are just like everything else.
Every hobby we have, everything that
we commit ourselves to or these longings being
expressed in our life. And so prayer life and the pilgrimage,
life of the pilgrim are the same thing. And, you know, you're if
you think about a hobby that you have, do you have hobbies?
Well, yeah. I mean, I'm searching for those vinyl records as well. And
Oh, yeah. Right. Right. So you, like, you you it takes time. You
gotta go, like, to the shop. You gotta maybe I
like it better when they, there's a vinyl collector's gathering
every quarter here in Houston. I love going there and there are people I see
and talk to and Yep. Right? Like, we have to work
on those things and sometimes I buy a record and I make a mistake
because it's already in my collection. Right? Or like, okay so
what do you do with that? Well you do things and spiritual life's just
like that. And I think we have to give the people who
unfortunately, I think we have to give each other a break in our churches
so that we could be reminded and some of this is just to remind ourselves
and everybody else who comes to it like, oh my gosh. It's
hard. Life is really hard and it and it doesn't
matter what economic station you're at, truthfully.
You we all have real struggles and,
we can help each other in those struggles. And I actually kind of
think across the fullness of our
embodied life together, actually we kinda need each other
regardless of what the class is. The the problem is that
we silo up so easily that we actually
aren't able to contribute to each other's lives, the very things that we
search for. Well, Bishop, thank you so much for
taking this time to, to share with us in so many
different perspectives. The book is coming out
June. People can probably find you at
various Episcopal churches around the the Texas area.
Where is the spot for them to to look you up online for more information?
Go to the church publishing website, but it's on all the major
book selling platforms online. And
we, you can certainly walk into a bookstore and see
if they'll order one for you. If it's not there, it'll be available for
them to do so. And I would encourage that. I, certainly,
I'm a, a book purchaser,
and a a bibliophile, but I would encourage
you to buy from your small store, see if they can order it for you.
And if it costs a little bit more, remember you're contributing to local
economies and that's really important as as we go through this.
But, yeah, it's all it should be everywhere for you.
I just got the first hard copy. Oh, wonderful. Yeah.
It's really nice. Looks like this. Comes with a hardback and
nice paper. It's a great book. Of course, I'm I'm, you know, I'm
injured. Well, look. It's oftentimes we're our
own worst critics. Right? So if you can say, yeah. Yeah. I'm
really pleased. I think it turned out pretty good. I'm like, wow. That's not
a our space has meaning. That's on page 13. The sacred
chosen space, not just the objects in it. Right? Like, that's a wow.
Okay. I wanna maybe I'll stay with Andy, you have some good ideas.
Maybe I should learn from you. It's it's I have to say it's a
real vulnerable place to to offer that
because I'm showing some of my own spiritual life,
which I you know, one on one people ask me about that it
is vulnerable to say, here's how I I do
this work for myself. Sanity.
Yeah. But as a preacher, you probably recognize that oftentimes
the most profound thoughts come out of the places where you're, in a sense,
preaching to yourself. Exactly. I always say it's
good to when somebody tells me I've done a good sermon, I said, thank you
so much. It's good to not embarrass the family that you're with.
And normally, if I really am honest about where my heart is
on that day, normally, there's one or two other people in the room who can
journey with me in it. That's that's a wonderful thing to hear some of that
back. Yeah. I I appreciate you, Ryan. Thank you for for having me
on your on your podcast. I really am excited
about, the work and,
excited about our greater work together, which Mhmm. That we're
doing here in Texas with others, in
the Methodist, world. And, this but
I think this is your podcast is a real gift to people. Oh, thank
you. That's a wrap for this episode of Compass, Finding Spirituality
in the Everyday. I wanna extend a special thank you to Bishop
Andy Doyle for such a thoughtful and wide ranging conversation.
And of course, to all of you for joining us on this journey. If
you'd like to dig just a little bit deeper into today's discussion or
to check out more episodes of Compass, visit our website at
umc.org/compass. There, you're gonna find
episode notes, resources mentioned in our conversation,
and plenty of other episodes to inspire your own spiritual
journey. We'd also like to thank the amazing team at United
Methodist Communications for making this podcast possible.
They're the folks behind the scenes bringing Compass to life each
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feedback helps others discover the show and to join
this growing community. Thanks again for listening. Wherever you
are on your spiritual journey, we're grateful to be walking alongside
you. Until next time, keep exploring.
Peace.