WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.679 Welcome to Compass, finding spirituality in the everyday. My name is 2 00:00:03.679 --> 00:00:06.899 Ryan Dunn. In this episode, I sat down with Episcopal 3 00:00:07.120 --> 00:00:10.900 Bishop Andy Doyle, author, church leader, 4 00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:14.475 and as it turns out, an avid collector of 5 00:00:14.475 --> 00:00:17.995 vinyl records. Bishop Doyle takes us behind the scenes of 6 00:00:17.995 --> 00:00:21.375 his personal spiritual practices from the soulful 7 00:00:21.435 --> 00:00:25.035 soundtrack that is currently shaping his days to the sacred 8 00:00:25.035 --> 00:00:28.730 spaces that he carves out for retreat and reflection. 9 00:00:29.270 --> 00:00:32.870 Bishop Doyle's latest book is Unabashed Faith, Resisting 10 00:00:32.870 --> 00:00:36.470 Spiritual Forces in the Modern World, and I was 11 00:00:36.470 --> 00:00:39.930 curious about how he would recommend spiritual 12 00:00:40.070 --> 00:00:43.895 contemplation and retreat in an age when we're always on and 13 00:00:43.895 --> 00:00:47.655 always connected, or at least when I feel a pressure to 14 00:00:47.655 --> 00:00:51.195 be always on and always connected. So 15 00:00:51.415 --> 00:00:54.714 how about you join us as we dive into the embodied 16 00:00:55.015 --> 00:00:58.570 experience of faith and ask big questions about the role of 17 00:00:58.570 --> 00:01:02.410 church and spiritual community in a so called 18 00:01:02.410 --> 00:01:06.250 post religious society. From the ritual of dropping 19 00:01:06.250 --> 00:01:09.950 a needle on a record to finding sacredness in ordinary places, 20 00:01:10.395 --> 00:01:13.994 bishop Doyle invites us to imagine a church that's less 21 00:01:13.994 --> 00:01:17.135 about institutional boundaries and more about belonging, 22 00:01:17.435 --> 00:01:21.195 connection, and pilgrimage. Andy Doyle lives 23 00:01:21.195 --> 00:01:24.829 in Houston, Texas. He is the ninth bishop of 24 00:01:24.829 --> 00:01:27.890 the Episcopal Diocese of Texas, and he summarizes 25 00:01:28.590 --> 00:01:32.429 his autobiography in just six words. Met Jesus on 26 00:01:32.429 --> 00:01:35.965 pilgrimage, still walking. So pour yourself a cup of 27 00:01:35.965 --> 00:01:39.665 coffee, settle in, and join us as we explore 28 00:01:39.885 --> 00:01:43.425 the sacramental possibilities hidden in plain sight 29 00:01:43.485 --> 00:01:46.945 with Bishop Andy Doyle. Bishop 30 00:01:47.085 --> 00:01:50.065 Andrew Doyle, author, leader in the church, 31 00:01:50.530 --> 00:01:54.130 collector of vinyl, I think I read. Is that still the case? That's 32 00:01:54.130 --> 00:01:56.950 true. It is. Alright. Awesome. Then, 33 00:01:57.729 --> 00:02:01.409 let's start off this way. Is there something that you've gotten recently that's in 34 00:02:01.409 --> 00:02:05.255 heavy rotation that is speaking to your soul or 35 00:02:05.255 --> 00:02:08.854 describing the the shape of your soul these days? I 36 00:02:08.854 --> 00:02:12.075 hear the it's really interesting. I collect mostly, 37 00:02:13.175 --> 00:02:16.375 the goal is to collect mostly classic rock 38 00:02:16.614 --> 00:02:20.330 Yeah. And blues artists they were listening to. So I 39 00:02:20.330 --> 00:02:23.850 have a real specific genre. But the 40 00:02:23.850 --> 00:02:27.610 one that I've I've I have to be honest, the one I'm playing 41 00:02:27.610 --> 00:02:31.065 right now a lot is Nation of Two by 42 00:02:31.065 --> 00:02:34.825 Vance Joy. And, just as 43 00:02:34.825 --> 00:02:38.585 gotten it's real soulful, the whole album is. It's 44 00:02:38.585 --> 00:02:42.365 got a couple of songs that have done really well, but 45 00:02:42.425 --> 00:02:46.200 I find that the kind of there's a 46 00:02:46.200 --> 00:02:49.800 longiness in there that that has connected with me 47 00:02:49.800 --> 00:02:53.319 inside that. I'm, looked up to kinda think about 48 00:02:53.319 --> 00:02:56.220 what what would that look like if I were, 49 00:02:57.400 --> 00:03:00.784 honest about it. And that's where that's what I'm listening 50 00:03:01.484 --> 00:03:04.685 to. I have I have different things I like to listen to, but then I 51 00:03:04.685 --> 00:03:08.284 also have this real, small 52 00:03:08.284 --> 00:03:11.820 collection of stuff I like to write with, which is 53 00:03:12.780 --> 00:03:16.400 is, also very much within that kind of genre. 54 00:03:16.860 --> 00:03:20.620 Okay. It's just easy easy to kinda 55 00:03:20.620 --> 00:03:24.220 go through. What is an example of one of your go to 56 00:03:24.220 --> 00:03:25.120 writing records? 57 00:03:27.805 --> 00:03:29.745 There is a, 58 00:03:32.205 --> 00:03:35.805 the soundtrack so the 59 00:03:35.805 --> 00:03:37.105 soundtrack for, 60 00:03:40.040 --> 00:03:43.880 the movie, oh, you're gonna have to help me here. It had Bill 61 00:03:43.880 --> 00:03:46.700 Murray in it, and they were undersea, 62 00:03:47.959 --> 00:03:48.459 cinematographers. 63 00:03:52.840 --> 00:03:56.105 Team Zisu was the name. You 64 00:03:57.305 --> 00:04:00.985 That is a team time. Yes. I know. Really. Deep 65 00:04:01.144 --> 00:04:04.985 nice. Nicely played. Yes. Yeah. So, anyway, it'll come to me in a 66 00:04:04.985 --> 00:04:08.830 minute. But, yeah, that's, that's been the music on that 67 00:04:08.830 --> 00:04:12.590 soundtrack introduced me to a bunch of foreign music I've 68 00:04:12.590 --> 00:04:16.270 never listened to. And so and it just stayed 69 00:04:16.270 --> 00:04:19.410 with me. And so I've added some to it, but 70 00:04:19.870 --> 00:04:22.130 that, that basic soundtrack 71 00:04:23.835 --> 00:04:27.675 was just amazing. And it's mostly a guy singing on a guitar 72 00:04:27.995 --> 00:04:30.975 Oh, gotcha. On a guitar. That's it. I mean, it's not a lot of 73 00:04:31.515 --> 00:04:34.815 band music. It's really Kind of the the simplistic, 74 00:04:35.355 --> 00:04:38.850 conductive to contemplation style music. Right. 75 00:04:39.810 --> 00:04:43.570 Well, we're gonna have to do a a quick turn here. Otherwise, we're 76 00:04:43.570 --> 00:04:47.410 gonna go down a rabbit hole. We're gonna, like, explore, what'd you get a 77 00:04:47.410 --> 00:04:51.250 record day and, you know, what was your cartridge like and all that stuff. 78 00:04:51.250 --> 00:04:55.095 So Right. Let's switch to the theological, shall we? Although You got it. I'll tell 79 00:04:55.095 --> 00:04:57.975 you what. I I feel like there is a bit of a carryover here in 80 00:04:57.975 --> 00:05:01.675 that, you talk a lot about embodied practice. And 81 00:05:01.895 --> 00:05:05.655 I think one of the things that led me back into engaging with 82 00:05:05.655 --> 00:05:09.230 something like like vinyl records has been 83 00:05:09.290 --> 00:05:12.990 the the physicality of it in in the sense that it's 84 00:05:13.130 --> 00:05:16.970 not just making music something that I consume while I'm 85 00:05:16.970 --> 00:05:20.810 doing something else, but in a sense, there's like a ritual to it and 86 00:05:20.810 --> 00:05:24.155 dropping the needle and looking at the at the cover and 87 00:05:24.315 --> 00:05:27.055 yeah. Holding out that gate fold and everything. So, 88 00:05:28.235 --> 00:05:31.375 so let's talk about that embodied religious 89 00:05:31.675 --> 00:05:34.255 experience a little bit. Now I wanna start with this. 90 00:05:35.035 --> 00:05:38.440 Our our society is is probably termed a 91 00:05:38.440 --> 00:05:40.300 post religious society. 92 00:05:42.520 --> 00:05:46.040 So with that in mind, for those who are existing kind of 93 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:49.180 outside of the the space of institutionalized 94 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:53.315 religion, like, how might you describe the 95 00:05:53.615 --> 00:05:57.455 importance of faith or the importance of religious experience to somebody like 96 00:05:57.455 --> 00:06:01.215 that? Well, I think part one, one, and I'm 97 00:06:01.215 --> 00:06:04.815 I'm I'm very interested in the in 98 00:06:04.815 --> 00:06:08.449 that conversation about kind of the post religious society. 99 00:06:08.669 --> 00:06:11.729 But to to narrow down on this question of embodiment, 100 00:06:13.229 --> 00:06:15.410 we as we as human beings, 101 00:06:17.229 --> 00:06:19.569 exist within a body. 102 00:06:20.910 --> 00:06:24.565 And one of the things that we've we've had a 103 00:06:24.565 --> 00:06:26.985 hard time with this humans is 104 00:06:28.725 --> 00:06:30.265 seeing all bodies 105 00:06:32.805 --> 00:06:36.180 as important to who a person 106 00:06:36.180 --> 00:06:39.699 is. And typically, we've 107 00:06:39.699 --> 00:06:43.539 we've kind of, turned the 108 00:06:43.539 --> 00:06:47.380 body into an asset. So we 109 00:06:47.380 --> 00:06:49.800 we speak about relational 110 00:06:51.685 --> 00:06:53.705 economies. We talk about 111 00:06:55.205 --> 00:06:58.965 labor force. Right? Mhmm. And 112 00:06:58.965 --> 00:07:02.664 and and so we have a condomized the body 113 00:07:03.685 --> 00:07:07.069 and at the same time we've kind of divorce the brain from the 114 00:07:07.069 --> 00:07:10.830 body. But there's a whole cycle of 115 00:07:10.830 --> 00:07:14.190 interest within science and research that's saying, wait a 116 00:07:14.190 --> 00:07:17.650 minute, the brain doesn't operate alone at all. 117 00:07:18.590 --> 00:07:22.345 And and in fact, it doesn't even operate 118 00:07:22.885 --> 00:07:26.645 as a whole thing. It operates in relationship to 119 00:07:26.645 --> 00:07:30.265 itself. And so within the body, kind of 120 00:07:30.725 --> 00:07:33.705 to to just say that we're this very complex 121 00:07:35.560 --> 00:07:39.160 creature, and that that complexity is 122 00:07:39.160 --> 00:07:42.920 bumping into the world all the time. And that as 123 00:07:42.920 --> 00:07:46.625 it bumps into the world, it's trying to make sense 124 00:07:46.625 --> 00:07:49.845 of itself and the world around it. 125 00:07:50.465 --> 00:07:54.145 And so if we think about religion in a much broader 126 00:07:54.145 --> 00:07:57.745 sense as, for instance, like 127 00:07:57.745 --> 00:08:00.410 Emile Durkheim would have referred 128 00:08:01.830 --> 00:08:05.669 to religion in other ways other than the 129 00:08:05.669 --> 00:08:09.350 form, that it takes in a church. Mhmm. We're 130 00:08:09.350 --> 00:08:13.185 able to see, I think, we 131 00:08:17.425 --> 00:08:21.025 a bodily experience and that we then can see 132 00:08:21.025 --> 00:08:24.385 that actually we're not in a post religious time 133 00:08:24.385 --> 00:08:27.125 period. We may be in a post Christendom, 134 00:08:28.889 --> 00:08:32.650 where organized Christian religion doesn't hold as 135 00:08:32.650 --> 00:08:36.429 much of the embodied religion as other things, 136 00:08:36.490 --> 00:08:40.250 but people are on a spiritual quest. And if we 137 00:08:40.250 --> 00:08:43.549 ask ourselves how are they doing this while they're walking the Camino, 138 00:08:44.010 --> 00:08:47.325 they're going out into the wilderness and camping again. 139 00:08:47.465 --> 00:08:50.765 Mhmm. They are seeking spiritual experiences 140 00:08:51.385 --> 00:08:54.745 on mountain tops with groups of people. Like, our 141 00:08:54.745 --> 00:08:58.130 bodies actually are needing something here 142 00:08:58.510 --> 00:09:02.190 and that we are getting it from I actually think we get it 143 00:09:02.190 --> 00:09:06.029 from the it's we don't get it from sports, but we get 144 00:09:06.029 --> 00:09:09.790 it from being a part or the fandom 145 00:09:09.790 --> 00:09:12.185 of sports. We get it from the fandom 146 00:09:13.285 --> 00:09:17.045 of, RC cars. We get it from the 147 00:09:17.045 --> 00:09:20.805 fandom of vinyl records. We get it from the like. These the 148 00:09:20.805 --> 00:09:24.485 the things that we actually are gleaning from the world as 149 00:09:24.485 --> 00:09:27.880 we've left kind of Christian Christianity 150 00:09:28.500 --> 00:09:32.120 or, Islam or Judaism for this other thing, 151 00:09:32.660 --> 00:09:36.500 it doesn't mean that we're not spiritual seekers. We actually are doing it 152 00:09:36.500 --> 00:09:39.720 all the time. I think our body is really hungry for connection 153 00:09:40.165 --> 00:09:44.005 connection, belonging. And when and I think part 154 00:09:44.005 --> 00:09:47.845 of what the church doesn't do well is explaining that that's we're 155 00:09:47.845 --> 00:09:51.365 actually doing something here that's very similar to that on a regular 156 00:09:51.365 --> 00:09:54.860 basis. I think think the church has to stop hustling for it 157 00:09:54.920 --> 00:09:58.460 and actually needs to begin to live in it in a different way. 158 00:09:59.000 --> 00:10:02.840 But, yeah, I would just say, it doesn't matter who you are and where you 159 00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:06.540 you know, if you're listening to this today, it doesn't matter what your 160 00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:10.815 journey is at this moment. Actually, if you're listening, 161 00:10:10.815 --> 00:10:14.274 this is part of that seeking, and I think that's 162 00:10:14.495 --> 00:10:17.475 that's where the divine begins to do amazing things. 163 00:10:18.255 --> 00:10:21.855 Do you feel like the church has participated in the 164 00:10:21.855 --> 00:10:25.360 neglect of the body? Yeah. Sure. If you think about 165 00:10:25.820 --> 00:10:29.580 think about the I mean, we can just talk about ourselves, but 166 00:10:29.580 --> 00:10:33.340 the whole confessional movement, from the middle ages 167 00:10:33.340 --> 00:10:37.040 as a response to kind of the scholasticism 168 00:10:37.555 --> 00:10:40.915 ism all in your brain. Right? And we see these things pop up. 169 00:10:40.915 --> 00:10:44.295 So in America, we saw two great awakenings, 170 00:10:44.595 --> 00:10:48.135 right, where people have this spiritual experience 171 00:10:48.275 --> 00:10:51.329 and then the church has to wrestle. Are you part of us, not part of 172 00:10:51.329 --> 00:10:54.850 like so I do think that we we 173 00:10:54.850 --> 00:10:57.910 have participated in this. 174 00:10:58.690 --> 00:11:01.990 I think that part of what's happened is that 175 00:11:02.610 --> 00:11:06.375 we got in our heads too much. We've been in our heads too much. And 176 00:11:06.375 --> 00:11:09.834 that that's what's really getting in the way. And, 177 00:11:13.575 --> 00:11:16.075 and certainly Jonathan Haidt and Ian, 178 00:11:18.214 --> 00:11:21.920 McGilchrist talk about this. We spend a lot of time 179 00:11:22.620 --> 00:11:26.380 in the thinking part of the mind. And so 180 00:11:26.380 --> 00:11:29.820 we've been nurturing this thinking part, but there 181 00:11:29.820 --> 00:11:33.464 really is another whole piece to us and 182 00:11:33.464 --> 00:11:36.985 our bodies that's important. And so I think that's where the 183 00:11:36.985 --> 00:11:40.745 church fell down. It's it's like the church kept doing what it was 184 00:11:40.745 --> 00:11:44.425 doing, and we sold everybody on what it was doing. But 185 00:11:44.425 --> 00:11:48.170 now what the hunger is, the church has to figure out how to talk 186 00:11:48.170 --> 00:11:52.010 about what it does and then do what people 187 00:11:52.010 --> 00:11:55.850 are looking for in a different way. So 188 00:11:55.850 --> 00:11:59.610 it's not to reject, not not to, like, completely move into all 189 00:11:59.610 --> 00:12:03.405 feeling. Right? There's a balance, I think, especially in our 190 00:12:03.405 --> 00:12:07.165 traditions. Like, there's a balance, of 191 00:12:07.165 --> 00:12:10.765 mindfulness as a Buddhist might say, but being able to talk, 192 00:12:10.765 --> 00:12:13.620 think, but also be aware 193 00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:18.260 of, where our bodies are. And and, 194 00:12:18.800 --> 00:12:22.340 you know, I think you see this particularly in the conversations 195 00:12:22.400 --> 00:12:26.020 Richard Rohr and others have been having around sacred space 196 00:12:26.935 --> 00:12:30.695 and finding that. And you find sacred space in your house. 197 00:12:30.695 --> 00:12:34.375 Right? Like, these are these are things we have we've forgotten to teach 198 00:12:34.375 --> 00:12:37.975 people. Mhmm. You know, like, in the in the middle 199 00:12:37.975 --> 00:12:41.654 ages, you would come on, feast day 200 00:12:41.654 --> 00:12:45.150 and get your candles lit and take them 201 00:12:45.150 --> 00:12:48.930 home to your home sacred space where you would put them 202 00:12:48.990 --> 00:12:52.510 and you would light them during the time of thunderstorms to keep 203 00:12:52.510 --> 00:12:56.270 your house safe from lightning. So this is what candle 204 00:12:56.270 --> 00:12:59.725 mask was. But so Charles Taylor 205 00:13:00.265 --> 00:13:03.065 talks a little bit about it philosophically as, 206 00:13:04.505 --> 00:13:08.345 as white magic of the time. The church was involved. I would say 207 00:13:08.345 --> 00:13:11.310 the church isn't involved in helping your home have sacred 208 00:13:23.310 --> 00:13:26.935 community. Mhmm. And yet at the same time, probably one of the 209 00:13:26.935 --> 00:13:30.695 most important things anybody, including myself, must do 210 00:13:30.695 --> 00:13:34.455 is find sacred space in their life on a regular basis 211 00:13:34.455 --> 00:13:38.180 for retreat from all of the connectedness and 212 00:13:38.180 --> 00:13:41.800 everything else. And I think tending to the body's own desire 213 00:13:41.860 --> 00:13:45.300 for rest and sabbatical Sabbath time. Right? 214 00:13:45.300 --> 00:13:48.980 This quieting down. I think we have to reclaim some of that. And 215 00:13:48.980 --> 00:13:52.715 certainly, this is in line with other people who are thinking out there. What 216 00:13:52.715 --> 00:13:55.455 kind of sacred space have you claimed in your life? 217 00:13:56.235 --> 00:13:59.835 So, I mean, there are a couple of different places. There's a retreat center that 218 00:13:59.835 --> 00:14:03.535 I love to go to. I'm part of a a monastic, 219 00:14:04.649 --> 00:14:08.490 community as a fellow that supports them but also retreats with 220 00:14:08.490 --> 00:14:12.329 them. And and then in my home, there's 221 00:14:12.329 --> 00:14:15.930 sacred space, a place to sit, a place that is a 222 00:14:15.930 --> 00:14:19.370 place where I pray, and a a place where I can be 223 00:14:19.370 --> 00:14:21.515 quiet. And that, 224 00:14:23.175 --> 00:14:26.935 I think finding a thing, it's really important to our 225 00:14:26.935 --> 00:14:30.075 bodies, it turns out to 226 00:14:30.615 --> 00:14:34.295 to claim a space and then be in the space as a 227 00:14:34.295 --> 00:14:37.380 regular part of life. 228 00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:41.700 And that that routine actually helps us rest better 229 00:14:41.760 --> 00:14:45.380 and pray better or be quiet better. 230 00:14:45.920 --> 00:14:49.440 So in all the traditions, they would tell you, you 231 00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:53.275 know, and and sometimes it's around the kit the dining room table, kitchen 232 00:14:53.275 --> 00:14:56.715 table with your family, where you engage in 233 00:14:56.715 --> 00:15:00.235 quiet prayer. Like, so it's it can be all kinds of 234 00:15:00.235 --> 00:15:03.835 things. Again, the church has thought it had to be Sunday 235 00:15:03.835 --> 00:15:07.490 morning for an hour. The church has got it. This is what this is 236 00:15:07.490 --> 00:15:11.330 what this is the gift. This is the gift of what you call the 237 00:15:11.330 --> 00:15:15.090 post religious moment. The gift is to remind ourselves, no way that the the 238 00:15:15.090 --> 00:15:18.704 vine is everywhere. Mhmm. Sacred is everywhere. God is 239 00:15:18.704 --> 00:15:22.545 speaking to us all the time through all kinds and manner 240 00:15:22.545 --> 00:15:26.144 of things. It is it's, it's not 241 00:15:26.144 --> 00:15:29.730 just, like God created one time and it's not that clock 242 00:15:29.810 --> 00:15:33.110 maker. This is a God who's who's, 243 00:15:34.529 --> 00:15:37.829 infused or saturated the world. 244 00:15:38.850 --> 00:15:42.610 Right? And so all of us are speaking this language. We just don't know why 245 00:15:42.610 --> 00:15:46.295 what to do with it when it comes to institutional religion, but I think we're 246 00:15:46.435 --> 00:15:50.035 we're beginning to sort it down. We've got to listen too. We also have a 247 00:15:50.035 --> 00:15:53.475 great gift. You know, groups like that 248 00:15:53.475 --> 00:15:57.175 whether it doesn't matter which tradition you look at, Abrahamic 249 00:16:01.800 --> 00:16:05.180 Asian, Eastern, all of them will 250 00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:08.779 speak of this need for our bodies 251 00:16:09.160 --> 00:16:12.925 to do this this work. So I think that's, and we have 252 00:16:12.925 --> 00:16:16.685 wisdom about how to do it. So we ought to be sharing it and 253 00:16:16.685 --> 00:16:20.205 not as, hey, I'll share it so you can come to my church. We ought 254 00:16:20.205 --> 00:16:23.660 to share it because people are hungry for it. Yeah. And we know how to 255 00:16:23.660 --> 00:16:26.780 do it. If they come, fine. If they don't, fine. Let us bless them on 256 00:16:26.780 --> 00:16:30.480 a journey. How do we be a, you know, how are we a pilgrim, 257 00:16:31.740 --> 00:16:35.260 hospital? Yeah. Right? The the old hospitalers were 258 00:16:35.260 --> 00:16:38.915 not were not hospitals like we think today. They were respites. Yeah. 259 00:16:38.915 --> 00:16:42.355 Places to stop on your journey. How do we how's the 260 00:16:42.355 --> 00:16:46.195 church become that for people? I I've heard a That's a big 261 00:16:46.195 --> 00:16:49.415 question. I've heard a term that the church can be, 262 00:16:50.195 --> 00:16:53.574 maybe in a modern analogy, the the airport. 263 00:16:53.875 --> 00:16:57.450 You don't come to the church as the destination. It's the stepping off 264 00:16:57.450 --> 00:17:01.130 point for Right. Moving into that spiritual experience. We we've 265 00:17:01.130 --> 00:17:04.589 talked a lot about our, our embodied spiritual 266 00:17:05.050 --> 00:17:08.030 side of things. In the dualistic 267 00:17:08.515 --> 00:17:12.115 sense, there's a mind component of who we are as well, which 268 00:17:12.115 --> 00:17:15.875 creates the greater whole. In in Unabashed, you you 269 00:17:15.875 --> 00:17:19.395 talked about some of the ways that, I don't know if it's fair to say 270 00:17:19.395 --> 00:17:22.950 that we've disengaged the mind or retreated into the mind, but I was 271 00:17:23.190 --> 00:17:26.089 particularly drawn to this phrase that you used about the Babylonian 272 00:17:26.869 --> 00:17:30.710 captivity of the mind. Can you, talk with us a little 273 00:17:30.710 --> 00:17:34.389 bit about what that means? Well, for those of you who 274 00:17:34.389 --> 00:17:37.895 don't know, it it refers to a 275 00:17:37.895 --> 00:17:41.515 time when people 276 00:17:42.455 --> 00:17:45.895 were conquered and taken away 277 00:17:46.295 --> 00:17:50.054 Mhmm. To Babylon, from their native land and 278 00:17:50.054 --> 00:17:52.250 from their primary worship space. 279 00:17:53.510 --> 00:17:57.270 And that, so that's what it refers 280 00:17:57.270 --> 00:18:00.410 to. And many theologians over the years have used Babylonian 281 00:18:00.630 --> 00:18:02.925 captivity to talk about this kind of separation 282 00:18:17.485 --> 00:18:20.799 Babylonian Babylonian captivity to talk about how, 283 00:18:21.419 --> 00:18:25.120 a set table that is God's how God provides 284 00:18:26.220 --> 00:18:29.899 wine and bread for people to actually eat and 285 00:18:29.899 --> 00:18:33.715 that you shouldn't withhold that from the people, right? 286 00:18:34.495 --> 00:18:38.335 And so so so that's the kind of to help with some sense 287 00:18:38.335 --> 00:18:41.935 of what I'm talking about there. And and what I would say is that we 288 00:18:41.935 --> 00:18:45.075 have, the mind has been taken over 289 00:18:46.350 --> 00:18:50.190 as the primary and only engaging part of our 290 00:18:50.190 --> 00:18:53.330 body. And it's it's being 291 00:18:54.030 --> 00:18:57.570 used quite literally used through social media, 292 00:18:58.590 --> 00:19:02.355 and this kind of constant connectivity. 293 00:19:03.535 --> 00:19:07.315 And, we've spent some time I think we spent some time 294 00:19:07.775 --> 00:19:11.075 in trying to sort of how that works. How do we provide 295 00:19:12.175 --> 00:19:15.990 just like those peep the people, the Jews who were taken 296 00:19:15.990 --> 00:19:19.750 away. Right? That this that that they had to 297 00:19:19.750 --> 00:19:23.510 figure out how to worship in that space of captivity. And so 298 00:19:23.510 --> 00:19:27.294 we've tried some of that, but the truth is that I, 299 00:19:27.855 --> 00:19:31.455 the prophet Isaiah who speaks to them says, no, you 300 00:19:31.455 --> 00:19:35.135 know, come home, too. So there's also this 301 00:19:35.135 --> 00:19:38.910 other piece that I think is that I think is really important 302 00:19:39.070 --> 00:19:42.910 is is the being homeness in our in our own bodies and realizing 303 00:19:42.910 --> 00:19:45.970 that we're not just a mind separate from, 304 00:19:46.430 --> 00:19:50.190 but holistically. And I and I so I've I've I've 305 00:19:50.190 --> 00:19:53.885 sensed that we've gotta reconnect our mind with our body in 306 00:19:53.885 --> 00:19:57.645 a real in a in a way that that we haven't done 307 00:19:57.645 --> 00:20:01.105 in a while. And so it's not just about quieting our body. 308 00:20:01.885 --> 00:20:05.164 I mean, our mind. It's not just about quieting our mind. We actually have to, 309 00:20:05.164 --> 00:20:06.385 like, be still. 310 00:20:08.524 --> 00:20:12.180 And so much of what we're looking for, I think what I 311 00:20:12.180 --> 00:20:15.940 look for, what I value, and I think people seem 312 00:20:15.940 --> 00:20:18.680 to be hungry for is actually finding that connectivity. 313 00:20:21.140 --> 00:20:24.865 And the truth is that connectivity is is related even 314 00:20:24.865 --> 00:20:28.165 though you're on Zoom and I can't be in the room with you. 315 00:20:28.865 --> 00:20:32.385 The the, the 316 00:20:32.385 --> 00:20:35.845 space that we inhabit so is is important. 317 00:20:38.060 --> 00:20:41.840 And our body, we need to claim the wholeness of that. 318 00:20:42.300 --> 00:20:46.060 But we also need to realize that right now, economics is 319 00:20:46.060 --> 00:20:49.500 based on getting our minds 320 00:20:49.500 --> 00:20:52.545 engaged and the body to follow. 321 00:20:53.005 --> 00:20:55.985 And sometimes we probably ought to be suspicious 322 00:20:56.765 --> 00:20:58.865 Mhmm. Of how that data is mined, 323 00:21:00.685 --> 00:21:04.385 you know, as a as a as an economic 324 00:21:04.605 --> 00:21:08.220 force Mhmm. Tell me about that. By others. Right? So 325 00:21:08.220 --> 00:21:12.000 so we really are, Zuboff 326 00:21:12.140 --> 00:21:15.660 talks about, you know, this economy that's been 327 00:21:15.660 --> 00:21:19.415 created, that we have just we just all participate 328 00:21:19.415 --> 00:21:23.174 in and we give to generously of our time 329 00:21:23.174 --> 00:21:26.395 without any payment back. Mhmm. And that 330 00:21:27.174 --> 00:21:30.875 the truth is that only a few people in the world are gaining 331 00:21:31.415 --> 00:21:35.200 from all of our participation in all of that. And so 332 00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:38.960 what does that mean? And how do we reclaim that? And how 333 00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:40.820 do we reclaim being together? 334 00:21:43.360 --> 00:21:46.914 We used to say when when I first started ministry thirty years ago 335 00:21:46.914 --> 00:21:50.755 that our parents didn't know how to argue, so the divorce rate went 336 00:21:50.755 --> 00:21:54.195 up. They didn't know how to argue, reconcile, and 337 00:21:54.195 --> 00:21:57.735 so they would they would move on. So we had generations of people, 338 00:21:58.195 --> 00:22:02.020 latchkey kids, single parent homes, double parent homes, all 339 00:22:02.020 --> 00:22:05.000 that kind of stuff happening, which still goes on today. 340 00:22:05.460 --> 00:22:08.919 But today, I think what we've what we're inheriting 341 00:22:09.140 --> 00:22:12.840 is a world that's mediated through screens. 342 00:22:13.620 --> 00:22:17.355 And so, and which I do. I think it's part of 343 00:22:17.355 --> 00:22:20.575 the work now, but we also need to learn 344 00:22:21.515 --> 00:22:25.275 how to disconnect from them. And it's just as important as figuring out how 345 00:22:25.275 --> 00:22:29.070 to mediate and become partners in life, whether it's 346 00:22:29.070 --> 00:22:32.910 a group of people. So we have this massive force in our society, 347 00:22:32.910 --> 00:22:36.750 I think, like, we could look at politics, division, all 348 00:22:36.750 --> 00:22:40.350 that. If we just sat down at the table and began to actually get to 349 00:22:40.350 --> 00:22:44.005 know each other, things would change. I mean, I've I believe it. 350 00:22:44.005 --> 00:22:47.845 I really believe it. And so as long as we can kinda be 351 00:22:47.845 --> 00:22:51.625 parceled out and used as percentage 352 00:22:51.845 --> 00:22:55.605 numbers to gain more commitment from 353 00:22:55.605 --> 00:22:59.320 others, I think we're I think our 354 00:22:59.320 --> 00:23:02.920 minds are being abused in a way that our whole bodies are going to 355 00:23:02.920 --> 00:23:06.600 suffer. Mhmm. And so the only way to reclaim that's gonna be 356 00:23:06.600 --> 00:23:10.394 in togetherness. So you recognize that, 357 00:23:11.755 --> 00:23:15.434 our commitment to the screens has, in a sense, drawn us away from 358 00:23:15.434 --> 00:23:19.054 one another. And yet you also admit that, you know, you're still a participant 359 00:23:19.355 --> 00:23:23.140 in the in the digital realm, so to speak. Do you have some practices 360 00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:26.980 to recommend about disengaging then, finding that kind of spiritual 361 00:23:27.360 --> 00:23:30.580 retreat from it? Yeah. I mean, I think the whole 362 00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:34.825 the I mean, every time we have our 363 00:23:34.825 --> 00:23:38.664 phone with us, that means that we are now able 364 00:23:38.664 --> 00:23:41.164 to be contacted by our bosses. 365 00:23:43.065 --> 00:23:46.205 We also are able to participate 366 00:23:47.304 --> 00:23:51.130 with others in social media. Now social 367 00:23:51.130 --> 00:23:54.190 media is feeding, as I've said, an economy. 368 00:23:54.970 --> 00:23:58.590 So to not participate is actually to set this down. 369 00:23:59.770 --> 00:24:03.610 So when I go home, a practice I have, I talk a little bit about 370 00:24:03.610 --> 00:24:07.425 this in the book, we just set this down. I'm not gonna carry 371 00:24:07.425 --> 00:24:11.205 it with me. Oftentimes, when my wife and I go out to dinner with people, 372 00:24:11.745 --> 00:24:15.105 I don't I don't take it. She can take hers or we can put this 373 00:24:15.105 --> 00:24:18.680 in the purse or whatever, but I'm not going to be attached to this while 374 00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:22.440 I'm in relationship with people. How do we, you know, how I 375 00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:25.640 was once with a person who's very wise, this in 376 00:24:25.880 --> 00:24:29.655 this wonderful woman, who I respect dearly 377 00:24:30.055 --> 00:24:33.755 said, how about we just be curious about that fact instead of 378 00:24:34.295 --> 00:24:38.135 finding out what it is exactly. Right? Like, so 379 00:24:38.295 --> 00:24:41.915 It's an incredible amount of patience, you know. Oh my god. 380 00:24:42.280 --> 00:24:45.660 I will tell you the answer. It will take you a month 381 00:24:46.360 --> 00:24:49.960 to walk in your house. If you really it's thirty days of practice. So if 382 00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:53.559 you want thirty days of practice, you walk into the house, plug it in somewhere 383 00:24:53.559 --> 00:24:56.975 in another room that you're not gonna be with the rest of your family and 384 00:24:56.975 --> 00:25:00.815 leave it there. And do not use it until you 385 00:25:00.815 --> 00:25:04.495 can check it before you go to bed. But like, that's the first thing is 386 00:25:04.495 --> 00:25:08.335 like, how do we take Sabbath from it? And I'm on social media all 387 00:25:08.335 --> 00:25:11.920 the time. So, you know, I don't wanna what what does it mean to sit 388 00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:15.680 at at and watch a movie together on television, but I'm 389 00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:19.440 on the phone. I'm not interacting with the movie or the people in the 390 00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:22.755 room. I'm interacting like this. Yeah. And 391 00:25:23.315 --> 00:25:27.155 and so I think that's the first piece. And so do you take this 392 00:25:27.155 --> 00:25:29.735 into your sacred space in your home? No. 393 00:25:30.835 --> 00:25:33.795 Can you leave it in the car when you go to church? If you go 394 00:25:33.795 --> 00:25:37.500 to church? Yes. Can you if you're going to 395 00:25:37.500 --> 00:25:40.799 your a studio to practice centering 396 00:25:40.940 --> 00:25:44.480 prayer or to a chapel, can you leave it behind? 397 00:25:44.700 --> 00:25:48.380 How do you I think this is a really big piece. It's not to say 398 00:25:48.380 --> 00:25:51.615 it's bad in and of itself. It's just to say, 399 00:25:52.395 --> 00:25:56.174 if we're the thing we're looking for actually can't be fulfilled bodily 400 00:25:57.275 --> 00:26:00.875 when we're only seeing everybody through a flat surface. A 401 00:26:00.875 --> 00:26:03.295 mediated this is a mediated surface. 402 00:26:05.710 --> 00:26:09.549 So I I that's a piece is how do you so the 403 00:26:09.549 --> 00:26:13.230 practice of being still in your own environment, the practice of sitting with 404 00:26:13.230 --> 00:26:16.690 others, the practice of sitting in a park by yourself 405 00:26:17.150 --> 00:26:20.685 with nothing, just being with the other people in the 406 00:26:20.685 --> 00:26:24.205 park. They might be doing other things but there's that is something that's 407 00:26:24.205 --> 00:26:27.105 happening. People will walk by and you can smell. 408 00:26:27.965 --> 00:26:31.720 You can see the reading books and be curious. I mean like, a 409 00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:35.480 whole you begin to take in a world that for 410 00:26:35.480 --> 00:26:37.900 me, the divine is speaking through 411 00:26:40.200 --> 00:26:42.140 directly in a way. 412 00:26:44.840 --> 00:26:48.315 But every time we add a layer, we are separating 413 00:26:48.695 --> 00:26:52.475 ourselves more. So if you think about the matrix, 414 00:26:52.775 --> 00:26:56.455 some of, the Chalmers work on consciousness, we 415 00:26:56.455 --> 00:26:59.755 begin to think about how these screens mediate us. 416 00:27:02.500 --> 00:27:05.860 Baudrillard's philosophy of, you know, this is a 417 00:27:05.860 --> 00:27:08.519 representation of us, but it's not really us, 418 00:27:10.340 --> 00:27:14.035 in the room together. And so we this is good, but it 419 00:27:14.035 --> 00:27:17.875 is mediated by something. Now take a still 420 00:27:17.875 --> 00:27:21.475 pick. Right? And we capture this. We put it on the 421 00:27:21.475 --> 00:27:25.315 podcast. Podcast gets shared through social media with the big thing, 422 00:27:25.315 --> 00:27:26.850 shows the two of us talking, whatever. 423 00:27:29.410 --> 00:27:33.190 Each step away has become a a repeated image that 424 00:27:33.210 --> 00:27:36.929 loses what we could have had 425 00:27:37.290 --> 00:27:41.090 in person. Right? So that's how you get 426 00:27:41.090 --> 00:27:44.195 the matrix movie. Right? They're they're playing with Baudrillard's 427 00:27:44.895 --> 00:27:48.275 Yeah. Philosophy. Right? The people the technology 428 00:27:48.575 --> 00:27:52.255 moved so much away that you 429 00:27:52.255 --> 00:27:55.919 you might prefer staying in the world Mhmm. That is 430 00:27:55.919 --> 00:27:59.440 fake versus staying in the real world that is 431 00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:03.200 dominated by a war. Right? Mhmm. Those of you who haven't seen 432 00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:06.880 the Matrix movies. Spoiler. I think we're okay to spoil at this point. It's been 433 00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:09.955 a while. At this point, yeah. That's on you all. Sorry. 434 00:28:10.495 --> 00:28:14.255 Yeah. Yeah. But right, I 435 00:28:14.255 --> 00:28:16.515 mean, this is why I think, 436 00:28:19.775 --> 00:28:22.650 you know, this is why I think actually used clothing 437 00:28:24.550 --> 00:28:28.310 and eBay and things like that where you can get your hands on things 438 00:28:28.310 --> 00:28:31.910 that have been used. Right? Go on 439 00:28:31.910 --> 00:28:35.510 eBay and you buy a pair of traveling pants. Right? You may 440 00:28:35.990 --> 00:28:39.425 you may may not have ever seen that movie. Right? But the traveling 441 00:28:39.565 --> 00:28:43.185 pants. Right? Like, you get these things that are worn and 442 00:28:43.245 --> 00:28:46.305 used and have become beloved. 443 00:28:46.605 --> 00:28:50.010 And this is again just a way in which 444 00:28:50.250 --> 00:28:53.470 we're trying we're seeking for real connection. 445 00:28:54.090 --> 00:28:57.850 I don't I don't I don't want a new jacket. Mhmm. 446 00:28:57.850 --> 00:29:01.470 I want a jacket that was found in a garage 447 00:29:01.530 --> 00:29:05.065 sale that an 80 year old wore for forty years and 448 00:29:05.065 --> 00:29:08.685 has paint, little paint on it and some I mean, my gosh. 449 00:29:09.065 --> 00:29:12.845 What a privilege to wear that person's jacket. And, you 450 00:29:12.905 --> 00:29:16.350 know, there's stories in there. And that's what I think we're 451 00:29:16.730 --> 00:29:20.570 seeking is is this with each other. I mean, you and I are engaging 452 00:29:20.570 --> 00:29:24.330 it right now. This is this is it. And it would be just a 453 00:29:24.330 --> 00:29:27.210 thousand times better except that we don't live in the same city. So we do 454 00:29:27.210 --> 00:29:30.745 the best we can. Right? But I have a whole world here and you have 455 00:29:30.745 --> 00:29:34.585 a whole world here that just is longing to be 456 00:29:34.585 --> 00:29:38.025 touched and smelled and all of our 457 00:29:38.025 --> 00:29:41.164 senses enlivened more and outside 458 00:29:41.465 --> 00:29:45.220 and You talk about sacrament being a 459 00:29:45.220 --> 00:29:49.060 form of resistance. Is is this part of what you mean 460 00:29:49.060 --> 00:29:52.200 it's it's a resistance too? It is. 461 00:29:52.740 --> 00:29:55.560 So I feel like anytime we 462 00:29:56.420 --> 00:30:00.095 move towards each other or 463 00:30:00.715 --> 00:30:04.555 and I think I'm just speak generally given our audience, right? I mean, I 464 00:30:04.555 --> 00:30:08.235 think anytime we move towards people and are 465 00:30:08.235 --> 00:30:10.975 willing to sacrifice to be there, 466 00:30:12.075 --> 00:30:15.760 to be a part of the world 467 00:30:15.760 --> 00:30:19.220 and maybe sacrifice some of our comforts 468 00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:24.080 or change some of our comforts so that the world may exist in a 469 00:30:24.080 --> 00:30:27.140 healthy way. Anytime we do any of that work, 470 00:30:27.760 --> 00:30:31.035 we are resisting. And 471 00:30:31.495 --> 00:30:34.395 we are the world is, 472 00:30:35.255 --> 00:30:37.435 and we are vessels 473 00:30:38.935 --> 00:30:42.695 of the conversation that 474 00:30:42.695 --> 00:30:46.270 I think the divine wants to have with us. So I know I'm speaking 475 00:30:46.270 --> 00:30:50.030 from my own faith perspective here, but I I believe 476 00:30:50.030 --> 00:30:53.570 that's what's happening. And for me, 477 00:30:53.630 --> 00:30:57.414 Sacramento life, the life of bread and wine, 478 00:30:57.715 --> 00:31:01.554 of water of baptism, that language has a lot 479 00:31:01.554 --> 00:31:05.395 of meaning for me, but it works the same way. It's 480 00:31:05.395 --> 00:31:09.154 the way we would say it's closer. Like, it's 481 00:31:09.154 --> 00:31:12.360 more articulated for the sacramental 482 00:31:12.659 --> 00:31:16.360 church, the place where we imbibe and consume 483 00:31:16.980 --> 00:31:20.740 and see the the water. Tertullian's really 484 00:31:20.740 --> 00:31:24.500 ancient divine speaker said that the 485 00:31:24.500 --> 00:31:28.125 water of bath baptism should be like like water we 486 00:31:28.125 --> 00:31:31.965 live in and breathe and swim in 487 00:31:31.965 --> 00:31:35.345 like little fishes. And so 488 00:31:35.965 --> 00:31:39.485 it's just kind of an amazing way of thinking of 489 00:31:39.485 --> 00:31:43.120 sacrament in that way. And I would argue 490 00:31:43.120 --> 00:31:46.900 that humans, ultimately 491 00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:51.520 left our own devices will seek 492 00:31:51.520 --> 00:31:55.300 that Mhmm. In very real ways. 493 00:31:57.200 --> 00:32:00.955 The phone, the all of this is just a substitute 494 00:32:02.695 --> 00:32:06.475 for real in body human 495 00:32:06.535 --> 00:32:10.295 relationship. It takes us away from 496 00:32:10.295 --> 00:32:14.120 the original. Sometimes, like I've said, you 497 00:32:14.120 --> 00:32:17.800 know, it's the best we can do. But we 498 00:32:17.800 --> 00:32:21.020 need to remember that our lives really are sacramental 499 00:32:21.240 --> 00:32:25.035 breathing places. And what the churches 500 00:32:25.035 --> 00:32:28.255 do at their best is to say, ah, yes. 501 00:32:29.115 --> 00:32:32.875 There it is. You've gotten it. You've it's not 502 00:32:32.875 --> 00:32:36.495 about you becoming a member of this thing. 503 00:32:37.740 --> 00:32:41.200 No. You're swimming in the waters of the divine. 504 00:32:41.660 --> 00:32:45.340 Nice. This is what's going on for you, and you see it 505 00:32:45.340 --> 00:32:49.095 too now. So we're gonna we're gonna, like, swim in 506 00:32:49.095 --> 00:32:52.615 this water together, and I and I've done 507 00:32:52.615 --> 00:32:56.135 it, and now you're gonna do it. And what we know is 508 00:32:56.135 --> 00:32:59.735 that because people have seen that for us, that 509 00:32:59.735 --> 00:33:03.330 swimming can't be taken away forever and ever. 510 00:33:03.330 --> 00:33:07.010 That swimming in the water is true. And so I'm 511 00:33:07.010 --> 00:33:10.450 just curious about that conversation and that 512 00:33:10.450 --> 00:33:14.210 sacramental life. And I think when we 513 00:33:14.210 --> 00:33:17.775 get together for a pub crawl and 514 00:33:17.775 --> 00:33:21.315 we've got, like, the bread and the brew or 515 00:33:22.175 --> 00:33:25.855 the the walk we've got people, friends of ours who are 516 00:33:25.855 --> 00:33:29.615 walking, the Icknield Way in 517 00:33:29.615 --> 00:33:33.270 England or the paths in England or walking and 518 00:33:33.270 --> 00:33:36.710 hiking in park together. When you are doing that, those 519 00:33:36.710 --> 00:33:40.330 are sacramental moments that the divine 520 00:33:40.549 --> 00:33:44.330 speaks through. Now I think for me, 521 00:33:44.870 --> 00:33:48.705 each each step away is not as as good as it is 522 00:33:49.004 --> 00:33:52.365 with more people. But that's because when we're with more 523 00:33:52.365 --> 00:33:55.884 people, our our guard has 524 00:33:55.884 --> 00:33:59.644 us an opportunity to come down. Mhmm. And 525 00:33:59.644 --> 00:34:03.200 so sometimes I think you have to start with the divine by 526 00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:06.500 yourself, then maybe you got like one or two. 527 00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:10.239 Right? Kind of that Vance Joy thing, a nation of two. Right? Like you 528 00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:13.735 can begin to do that. Your guard comes down with 529 00:34:13.735 --> 00:34:17.415 these partners in our lives, these parents or 530 00:34:17.415 --> 00:34:20.955 substitute parents or, you know, substitute 531 00:34:21.094 --> 00:34:24.795 brothers and sisters. I mean, that's all the church is. It's like recognizing. 532 00:34:25.094 --> 00:34:28.690 We're just fumbling towards God together in 533 00:34:28.690 --> 00:34:31.270 these spaces at our best. And, 534 00:34:32.530 --> 00:34:36.310 anyway, I just think life is full of that and how 535 00:34:37.410 --> 00:34:39.989 when we get I'm so grateful for that. 536 00:34:41.175 --> 00:34:44.695 I'm grateful for the church I'm a part of, but not because it's the church. 537 00:34:44.695 --> 00:34:48.235 I'm grateful because, you know, you and I are visiting 538 00:34:48.614 --> 00:34:52.455 today. I mean, like, this is kinda kind of 539 00:34:52.455 --> 00:34:56.295 amazing. Yeah. What other introduction would we have 540 00:34:56.295 --> 00:34:59.770 had had it not been? Right? Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. 541 00:35:00.070 --> 00:35:03.830 Yeah. And I like where you're going 542 00:35:03.830 --> 00:35:07.430 to because it, the 543 00:35:07.430 --> 00:35:11.155 church can feel daunting for people, especially think in 544 00:35:11.155 --> 00:35:14.835 thinking about the the institutional, side 545 00:35:14.835 --> 00:35:18.675 of church. And so Right. The idea that that church maybe is 546 00:35:18.675 --> 00:35:22.260 something that we, in broadening the idea of 547 00:35:22.340 --> 00:35:25.860 church as being sort of the community of people who are on this spiritual journey 548 00:35:25.860 --> 00:35:29.700 together. You know, it's something that we we snowball our 549 00:35:29.700 --> 00:35:33.540 way easily into just by broadening a sense 550 00:35:33.540 --> 00:35:36.425 of connection. Am I on the right path here? Okay. 551 00:35:37.365 --> 00:35:40.425 I have a friend who says, why are you so down on the institution? 552 00:35:41.365 --> 00:35:44.665 As he said, you know, movements movements require 553 00:35:44.885 --> 00:35:47.970 organization. And that's true. Mhmm. That's 554 00:35:48.849 --> 00:35:52.210 true. There's no question about it. When you start getting more and more people and 555 00:35:52.210 --> 00:35:54.950 you wanna do things together, it requires organization. 556 00:35:56.130 --> 00:35:59.490 But the organization should always serve the 557 00:35:59.490 --> 00:36:03.015 very basic piece Yeah. Of that life 558 00:36:03.255 --> 00:36:06.555 together. And when it stops serving that, then the organization 559 00:36:07.174 --> 00:36:10.795 needs to reform itself a little bit. And unfortunately, organizations 560 00:36:11.095 --> 00:36:14.934 don't like to do that. But, they or they Yeah. They 561 00:36:14.934 --> 00:36:18.340 don't. They don't. They don't like change. And so so there's they 562 00:36:18.340 --> 00:36:20.840 struggle. They struggle. But at the core, 563 00:36:22.660 --> 00:36:26.500 and that and this is I mentioned this in this book that, you 564 00:36:26.500 --> 00:36:30.115 know, finding the place that you need for its time or a 565 00:36:30.115 --> 00:36:33.715 season may not be the place that you walk in the 566 00:36:33.715 --> 00:36:36.455 door the first time. You may want a real quiet 567 00:36:37.635 --> 00:36:41.430 service. I so I think people ought to really look for, you 568 00:36:41.510 --> 00:36:44.970 know, these kind of things. And if the church doesn't feel like 569 00:36:45.670 --> 00:36:49.130 coming together, then by all means, go. And if it becomes 570 00:36:49.190 --> 00:36:52.809 hurtful, go. I mean, there's you know, you're free. 571 00:36:53.270 --> 00:36:56.935 We're free. And sometimes I don't think we support each other in 572 00:36:56.935 --> 00:36:59.195 that freedom enough because we 573 00:37:00.695 --> 00:37:04.535 we regress into wanting to support the organization. But we 574 00:37:04.535 --> 00:37:08.079 should always remember the organization, like we talked about the 575 00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:11.680 very beginning is is like this pilgrim 576 00:37:11.680 --> 00:37:15.040 hut, where we can sit down for a while 577 00:37:15.040 --> 00:37:18.720 together and put some, plasters on our on 578 00:37:18.720 --> 00:37:21.220 our, aching toes. And 579 00:37:23.154 --> 00:37:26.694 I was really formed by my own journey in pilgrimage. I 580 00:37:26.994 --> 00:37:30.755 I, as a child when I went with my dad early on 581 00:37:30.755 --> 00:37:34.560 to travel about 20 to 30 582 00:37:34.720 --> 00:37:38.400 miles a day on foot to, from the town we lived in 583 00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:41.700 to, the town of San Juan De Los Lagos, 584 00:37:42.560 --> 00:37:46.080 in Mexico. And and so those 585 00:37:46.080 --> 00:37:49.700 are I just that's a those are powerful 586 00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:53.415 images. And I think when you sit down with 587 00:37:53.795 --> 00:37:56.615 our friends at a table and break bread together, 588 00:37:57.475 --> 00:38:00.855 it's not the same as it might be in the church. 589 00:38:01.555 --> 00:38:05.130 But isn't that what we're also doing? I mean, I think as 590 00:38:05.130 --> 00:38:08.730 for me, it it moves 591 00:38:08.730 --> 00:38:12.510 into that space. When we break bread something happens 592 00:38:12.569 --> 00:38:16.010 when we eat together. And eating is messy by the way. It is. Right? I 593 00:38:16.010 --> 00:38:19.795 think that's right. Get it all over you. I think it's the vulnerability of that. 594 00:38:19.795 --> 00:38:23.475 It is. It's so right. And I know that not 595 00:38:23.475 --> 00:38:27.095 everybody is, I'm an extrovert. I know that not everybody 596 00:38:27.235 --> 00:38:31.075 is, you know, really does this. Some people need a lot 597 00:38:31.075 --> 00:38:34.190 more more alone time to be able to do the other. 598 00:38:35.450 --> 00:38:38.270 But even monastics recognize 599 00:38:39.290 --> 00:38:42.750 that that you have to be with others. 600 00:38:44.165 --> 00:38:47.765 The only ones who don't are solitaries who live off by 601 00:38:47.765 --> 00:38:51.285 themselves. It's a very particular small group, right, of 602 00:38:51.285 --> 00:38:54.965 divines who are able to to do 603 00:38:54.965 --> 00:38:58.279 that particular spiritual work. So 604 00:38:58.900 --> 00:39:02.660 those all of those are just organizational models for what we're talking 605 00:39:02.660 --> 00:39:06.500 about in general for, you know, the people that 606 00:39:06.500 --> 00:39:10.244 we're talking with today. They're sitting there. They're listening listening to us. It's 607 00:39:10.244 --> 00:39:14.005 great to have you on the podcast and wherever you are 608 00:39:14.005 --> 00:39:17.845 in your journey. Right? But we're just going along 609 00:39:17.845 --> 00:39:21.684 together. The spiritual practices provide a a sense of going 610 00:39:21.684 --> 00:39:25.145 along. And, of course, pilgrimage is a wonderful example of that, 611 00:39:25.980 --> 00:39:29.200 and is a spiritual practice. In in Unabashed, 612 00:39:29.340 --> 00:39:32.960 you you lift up a spiritual practice with every chapter. 613 00:39:33.100 --> 00:39:36.320 Was there one that maybe you discovered 614 00:39:36.860 --> 00:39:40.255 in the process of putting this book together? The one 615 00:39:40.255 --> 00:39:44.015 that that I will tell you, and it's the one we've already talked about, 616 00:39:44.015 --> 00:39:47.855 that, I found that I had I had 617 00:39:47.855 --> 00:39:51.450 a rule about my phone. I had a rule of life about my phone that 618 00:39:51.450 --> 00:39:55.050 I had done successfully for a long time and I had 619 00:39:55.050 --> 00:39:58.730 gotten away. And so the book, you know, what the book describes is 620 00:39:58.730 --> 00:40:02.055 something I had done for years. But but 621 00:40:02.535 --> 00:40:06.214 we all might remember except unless you're really 622 00:40:06.214 --> 00:40:09.974 young, this is a new technology, so it's taken in 623 00:40:09.974 --> 00:40:13.575 my lifetime. Right? So considering that I had a 624 00:40:13.575 --> 00:40:17.255 beeper when my first child was born in in the nineties. Right? 625 00:40:17.255 --> 00:40:20.880 So so it's it's been a slow move, but 626 00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:24.560 with that move and its expansion, I found 627 00:40:24.560 --> 00:40:28.080 I've been on the phone more. Right? I can't let go of it more. Like, 628 00:40:28.080 --> 00:40:31.484 all of that, I need to know what's happening more. My wife wife calls it 629 00:40:31.945 --> 00:40:35.385 doom scrolling. She one of her spiritual practices is to 630 00:40:35.385 --> 00:40:39.145 post every day a rest from the what 631 00:40:39.145 --> 00:40:42.665 is it? Rest weary traveler from your doom 632 00:40:42.665 --> 00:40:46.490 scrolling meme. Mhmm. Right? And she puts a cool picture up every day. But 633 00:40:46.630 --> 00:40:50.150 like that's a whole to so I had to 634 00:40:50.150 --> 00:40:53.990 reengage. It's like, oh man, I can't talk. I need to be doing this. It 635 00:40:53.990 --> 00:40:56.650 was so good when I did it and it's fantastic 636 00:40:57.785 --> 00:41:01.465 And it can be lonely when other people around you don't do it, but that's 637 00:41:01.465 --> 00:41:04.205 okay. Yeah. I think it's okay. 638 00:41:05.465 --> 00:41:08.765 Yeah. Be the first to start the snowball. Yeah. It's okay. 639 00:41:09.225 --> 00:41:12.950 It's okay. Just start over. Yeah. Start over. I 640 00:41:12.950 --> 00:41:16.390 don't think I just think, come on. We gotta give each other a break. We're 641 00:41:16.390 --> 00:41:19.750 just we are not gonna be perfect in this 642 00:41:19.750 --> 00:41:23.510 life and the spiritual discipline are just like everything else. 643 00:41:23.510 --> 00:41:27.255 Every hobby we have, everything that 644 00:41:27.255 --> 00:41:30.775 we commit ourselves to or these longings being 645 00:41:30.775 --> 00:41:34.075 expressed in our life. And so prayer life and the pilgrimage, 646 00:41:34.615 --> 00:41:38.375 life of the pilgrim are the same thing. And, you know, you're if 647 00:41:38.375 --> 00:41:42.180 you think about a hobby that you have, do you have hobbies? 648 00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:46.560 Well, yeah. I mean, I'm searching for those vinyl records as well. And 649 00:41:46.720 --> 00:41:50.560 Oh, yeah. Right. Right. So you, like, you you it takes time. You 650 00:41:50.560 --> 00:41:54.345 gotta go, like, to the shop. You gotta maybe I 651 00:41:54.345 --> 00:41:58.045 like it better when they, there's a vinyl collector's gathering 652 00:41:58.105 --> 00:42:01.785 every quarter here in Houston. I love going there and there are people I see 653 00:42:01.785 --> 00:42:05.400 and talk to and Yep. Right? Like, we have to work 654 00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:09.000 on those things and sometimes I buy a record and I make a mistake 655 00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:12.839 because it's already in my collection. Right? Or like, okay so 656 00:42:12.839 --> 00:42:16.520 what do you do with that? Well you do things and spiritual life's just 657 00:42:16.520 --> 00:42:20.075 like that. And I think we have to give the people who 658 00:42:20.695 --> 00:42:23.755 unfortunately, I think we have to give each other a break in our churches 659 00:42:24.695 --> 00:42:28.375 so that we could be reminded and some of this is just to remind ourselves 660 00:42:28.375 --> 00:42:31.770 and everybody else who comes to it like, oh my gosh. It's 661 00:42:31.770 --> 00:42:35.210 hard. Life is really hard and it and it doesn't 662 00:42:35.210 --> 00:42:38.990 matter what economic station you're at, truthfully. 663 00:42:39.770 --> 00:42:42.865 You we all have real struggles and, 664 00:42:45.244 --> 00:42:48.925 we can help each other in those struggles. And I actually kind of 665 00:42:48.925 --> 00:42:52.224 think across the fullness of our 666 00:42:53.005 --> 00:42:56.230 embodied life together, actually we kinda need each other 667 00:42:56.690 --> 00:43:00.369 regardless of what the class is. The the problem is that 668 00:43:00.369 --> 00:43:04.150 we silo up so easily that we actually 669 00:43:05.410 --> 00:43:09.190 aren't able to contribute to each other's lives, the very things that we 670 00:43:09.250 --> 00:43:12.905 search for. Well, Bishop, thank you so much for 671 00:43:12.905 --> 00:43:16.665 taking this time to, to share with us in so many 672 00:43:16.665 --> 00:43:20.345 different perspectives. The book is coming out 673 00:43:20.345 --> 00:43:24.125 June. People can probably find you at 674 00:43:24.650 --> 00:43:28.350 various Episcopal churches around the the Texas area. 675 00:43:29.850 --> 00:43:32.850 Where is the spot for them to to look you up online for more information? 676 00:43:33.130 --> 00:43:36.750 Go to the church publishing website, but it's on all the major 677 00:43:37.210 --> 00:43:40.385 book selling platforms online. And 678 00:43:43.565 --> 00:43:47.405 we, you can certainly walk into a bookstore and see 679 00:43:47.405 --> 00:43:51.165 if they'll order one for you. If it's not there, it'll be available for 680 00:43:51.165 --> 00:43:55.000 them to do so. And I would encourage that. I, certainly, 681 00:43:55.060 --> 00:43:57.960 I'm a, a book purchaser, 682 00:43:59.380 --> 00:44:02.920 and a a bibliophile, but I would encourage 683 00:44:03.140 --> 00:44:06.500 you to buy from your small store, see if they can order it for you. 684 00:44:06.500 --> 00:44:10.135 And if it costs a little bit more, remember you're contributing to local 685 00:44:10.755 --> 00:44:14.515 economies and that's really important as as we go through this. 686 00:44:14.515 --> 00:44:18.215 But, yeah, it's all it should be everywhere for you. 687 00:44:18.355 --> 00:44:22.040 I just got the first hard copy. Oh, wonderful. Yeah. 688 00:44:22.260 --> 00:44:26.020 It's really nice. Looks like this. Comes with a hardback and 689 00:44:26.020 --> 00:44:29.620 nice paper. It's a great book. Of course, I'm I'm, you know, I'm 690 00:44:29.620 --> 00:44:33.380 injured. Well, look. It's oftentimes we're our 691 00:44:33.380 --> 00:44:37.035 own worst critics. Right? So if you can say, yeah. Yeah. I'm 692 00:44:37.035 --> 00:44:40.815 really pleased. I think it turned out pretty good. I'm like, wow. That's not 693 00:44:41.035 --> 00:44:44.875 a our space has meaning. That's on page 13. The sacred 694 00:44:44.875 --> 00:44:48.715 chosen space, not just the objects in it. Right? Like, that's a wow. 695 00:44:48.715 --> 00:44:52.520 Okay. I wanna maybe I'll stay with Andy, you have some good ideas. 696 00:44:52.520 --> 00:44:56.360 Maybe I should learn from you. It's it's I have to say it's a 697 00:44:56.360 --> 00:45:00.120 real vulnerable place to to offer that 698 00:45:00.120 --> 00:45:03.885 because I'm showing some of my own spiritual life, 699 00:45:03.885 --> 00:45:07.485 which I you know, one on one people ask me about that it 700 00:45:07.485 --> 00:45:11.165 is vulnerable to say, here's how I I do 701 00:45:11.165 --> 00:45:13.505 this work for myself. Sanity. 702 00:45:14.845 --> 00:45:18.269 Yeah. But as a preacher, you probably recognize that oftentimes 703 00:45:18.490 --> 00:45:22.089 the most profound thoughts come out of the places where you're, in a sense, 704 00:45:22.089 --> 00:45:25.849 preaching to yourself. Exactly. I always say it's 705 00:45:25.849 --> 00:45:29.210 good to when somebody tells me I've done a good sermon, I said, thank you 706 00:45:29.210 --> 00:45:32.509 so much. It's good to not embarrass the family that you're with. 707 00:45:34.365 --> 00:45:38.045 And normally, if I really am honest about where my heart is 708 00:45:38.045 --> 00:45:41.805 on that day, normally, there's one or two other people in the room who can 709 00:45:41.805 --> 00:45:45.485 journey with me in it. That's that's a wonderful thing to hear some of that 710 00:45:45.485 --> 00:45:49.190 back. Yeah. I I appreciate you, Ryan. Thank you for for having me 711 00:45:49.190 --> 00:45:52.650 on your on your podcast. I really am excited 712 00:45:52.789 --> 00:45:55.529 about, the work and, 713 00:45:56.309 --> 00:45:59.990 excited about our greater work together, which Mhmm. That we're 714 00:45:59.990 --> 00:46:03.704 doing here in Texas with others, in 715 00:46:03.704 --> 00:46:07.545 the Methodist, world. And, this but 716 00:46:07.545 --> 00:46:11.145 I think this is your podcast is a real gift to people. Oh, thank 717 00:46:11.145 --> 00:46:14.789 you. That's a wrap for this episode of Compass, Finding Spirituality 718 00:46:15.170 --> 00:46:18.690 in the Everyday. I wanna extend a special thank you to Bishop 719 00:46:18.690 --> 00:46:22.230 Andy Doyle for such a thoughtful and wide ranging conversation. 720 00:46:22.690 --> 00:46:26.529 And of course, to all of you for joining us on this journey. If 721 00:46:26.529 --> 00:46:30.245 you'd like to dig just a little bit deeper into today's discussion or 722 00:46:30.245 --> 00:46:34.005 to check out more episodes of Compass, visit our website at 723 00:46:34.005 --> 00:46:37.605 umc.org/compass. There, you're gonna find 724 00:46:37.605 --> 00:46:40.985 episode notes, resources mentioned in our conversation, 725 00:46:41.470 --> 00:46:44.910 and plenty of other episodes to inspire your own spiritual 726 00:46:44.910 --> 00:46:48.430 journey. We'd also like to thank the amazing team at United 727 00:46:48.430 --> 00:46:51.890 Methodist Communications for making this podcast possible. 728 00:46:52.190 --> 00:46:55.994 They're the folks behind the scenes bringing Compass to life each 729 00:46:55.994 --> 00:46:59.615 week. And if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe, 730 00:47:00.234 --> 00:47:03.835 rate, and review Compass on your favorite podcast platform. Your 731 00:47:03.835 --> 00:47:07.615 feedback helps others discover the show and to join 732 00:47:07.674 --> 00:47:11.420 this growing community. Thanks again for listening. Wherever you 733 00:47:11.420 --> 00:47:15.200 are on your spiritual journey, we're grateful to be walking alongside 734 00:47:15.260 --> 00:47:18.319 you. Until next time, keep exploring. 735 00:47:18.779 --> 00:47:19.279 Peace.