WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:03.720 What happens when your faith questions lead you down a 2 00:00:03.720 --> 00:00:07.480 YouTube rabbit hole? On this episode 3 00:00:07.480 --> 00:00:11.200 of Compass Finding Spirituality in the Everyday, we sit down with 4 00:00:11.200 --> 00:00:14.160 Reverend Matt Patrick, an Oklahoma pastor, 5 00:00:14.400 --> 00:00:17.800 theologian and creator of the Connectionalist 6 00:00:17.800 --> 00:00:20.880 YouTube channel, and we dig into how digital 7 00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:24.800 spaces are shaping our spiritual journeys. We're going to hear 8 00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:28.000 how Matt's passion for deep theological conversations, 9 00:00:28.240 --> 00:00:31.360 honest exploration of doubt and Methodist pers 10 00:00:32.300 --> 00:00:35.980 come to life online and what it really means 11 00:00:35.980 --> 00:00:39.660 to connect faith to everyday living in a hyper connected world. 12 00:00:39.980 --> 00:00:43.820 This episode scratches a couple inches for me as of course I love 13 00:00:43.820 --> 00:00:47.620 exploring the ways in which faith is an always on presence in our 14 00:00:47.620 --> 00:00:51.220 lives, but I also love learning about some of the innovative ways 15 00:00:51.220 --> 00:00:54.380 that the church moves into the world. Now, for a lot of people, 16 00:00:54.700 --> 00:00:58.180 talking about faith on YouTube probably doesn't sound that innovative 17 00:00:58.180 --> 00:01:02.030 anymore, but as Matt is going to point out, it's not a widely 18 00:01:02.030 --> 00:01:05.550 utilized pursuit in my slice of the faith o 19 00:01:05.550 --> 00:01:09.190 spear, so to speak. Cool. So stick with us. 20 00:01:09.190 --> 00:01:13.030 Discover how YouTube communities and thoughtful dialogue and a spirit 21 00:01:13.030 --> 00:01:16.710 of curiosity are helping people encounter faith in church 22 00:01:16.710 --> 00:01:20.230 in fresh ways. And of course, if you find conversations 23 00:01:20.310 --> 00:01:23.670 like this valuable, well then like subscribe, 24 00:01:23.990 --> 00:01:27.630 leave a comment or a review on your podcast listening platform 25 00:01:27.630 --> 00:01:31.150 of choice. Thanks. Let's meet Reverend Matt 26 00:01:31.150 --> 00:01:34.850 Patric. Now we're gonna get talking outreach and 27 00:01:34.850 --> 00:01:38.530 theology, all in the course of talking about YouTube. 28 00:01:39.410 --> 00:01:42.690 As you've been growing your channel on YouTube, I'm wondering if there are 29 00:01:42.930 --> 00:01:46.770 other rabbit holes or channels that you seem to get 30 00:01:46.770 --> 00:01:50.370 sidetracked by. Like what are some of your favorite things to just research out on 31 00:01:50.370 --> 00:01:53.810 YouTube these days? Oh, YouTube is an 32 00:01:53.810 --> 00:01:57.490 infinite source of folly and 33 00:01:57.490 --> 00:02:01.170 wisdom at the same time. I, 34 00:02:01.170 --> 00:02:04.570 I honestly, my main passion is actually not the theology, 35 00:02:05.210 --> 00:02:09.010 which is probably going to be surprising. American history has always been one of 36 00:02:09.010 --> 00:02:12.770 my deepest research passions. I went to school for theology for seven years. So obviously 37 00:02:12.770 --> 00:02:16.250 I, I do like it. I, I have a YouTube channel about it, 38 00:02:16.970 --> 00:02:20.290 but I would never start a YouTube channel about American history because I, I'm not 39 00:02:20.290 --> 00:02:23.370 credentialed, you know, in the same way to talk about, I don't speak with any 40 00:02:23.370 --> 00:02:27.010 kind of like, I don't think authority. Not that that matters on YouTube apparently, 41 00:02:27.010 --> 00:02:30.330 right. To a lot of people. But American history 42 00:02:30.570 --> 00:02:33.990 vlogging through a lot. Chris, Chris 43 00:02:33.990 --> 00:02:37.550 Mai at Vlogging through History. He does a lot of reaction content. He's a 44 00:02:37.550 --> 00:02:40.230 historian. He does a lot of his original content. He's kind of an expert in 45 00:02:40.230 --> 00:02:43.750 the American Civil War, which is one of my main areas of study 46 00:02:44.230 --> 00:02:47.750 is, is in, in American history is that period. So I love 47 00:02:47.750 --> 00:02:51.510 theology, but then I'm also a nerd. So video games, 48 00:02:51.990 --> 00:02:55.310 card games, that kind of stuff. That's. That's what I'm on YouTube a lot for. 49 00:02:55.310 --> 00:02:58.950 Yeah. Do you go down the rabbit hole of watching live stream on 50 00:02:58.950 --> 00:03:02.580 video games? You know, it's funny. 51 00:03:02.740 --> 00:03:06.460 Yes. At a certain point in my life, yes, I 52 00:03:06.460 --> 00:03:09.580 was very into like Twitch and live streams and stuff like that. And I would 53 00:03:09.580 --> 00:03:12.820 watch a lot of streaming stuff. Now that I'm not single, 54 00:03:13.460 --> 00:03:17.260 I find that we watch a lot of. My fiance 55 00:03:17.260 --> 00:03:20.740 and I watch a lot of content together. Right. And Twitch is something 56 00:03:21.140 --> 00:03:23.780 I watched when I was single and it was like in the background a lot. 57 00:03:24.020 --> 00:03:27.170 And I'm usually not like, you know what I'm saying? So now I've had like 58 00:03:27.170 --> 00:03:30.690 a dynamic shift in my life, so I don't watch. Now you have a companion. 59 00:03:30.690 --> 00:03:32.890 It was a companion and now I have a companion. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good 60 00:03:32.890 --> 00:03:36.010 way. That's a good way to put it. So, yeah, I, I watch. I still 61 00:03:36.010 --> 00:03:39.530 watch live streams from time to time. And 62 00:03:39.530 --> 00:03:42.450 speed, I like speed running. I don't know if you know what that is. Video 63 00:03:42.450 --> 00:03:46.170 games, people playing video games as fast as possible. It's like a fun, 64 00:03:46.890 --> 00:03:50.650 very nerdy niche of the Internet. That's, that's pretty fascinating actually, the 65 00:03:50.650 --> 00:03:54.120 deeper you dive into it. So. Well, your channel is the 66 00:03:54.120 --> 00:03:57.840 connectionalist. What inspired your channel? Well, 67 00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:01.360 you know, there's some pretty specific instances about that. I, 68 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:06.040 I started following theology YouTube just a few months 69 00:04:06.040 --> 00:04:09.760 ago, actually. I didn't really engage that side of the 70 00:04:09.760 --> 00:04:13.600 Internet. You know, it was my job. Right. So I'm not on YouTube to follow 71 00:04:13.600 --> 00:04:16.880 stuff for my work. And so 72 00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:20.560 I, I started watching some content. There was some really good stuff out there. But 73 00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:23.360 what really spurred it on is conversations I was having 74 00:04:24.210 --> 00:04:27.850 with students. I'm a pastor at University United Methodist 75 00:04:27.850 --> 00:04:31.570 Church. It's on the campus of the University of Tulsa, 76 00:04:31.570 --> 00:04:34.450 which is a Division 1 college. It's the only church on campus. 77 00:04:35.330 --> 00:04:37.850 And so a lot of people are like, oh, you're a campus minister? I'm like, 78 00:04:37.850 --> 00:04:41.410 no, no. I'm a pastor of a church. It's a full church. 79 00:04:41.810 --> 00:04:45.450 We have a campus. We have a Wesley foundation across the street from 80 00:04:45.450 --> 00:04:49.250 us. But historically the church has just been there since, 81 00:04:49.570 --> 00:04:52.810 in some ways before the university. And so the church has been there a really, 82 00:04:52.810 --> 00:04:56.500 really long time. And I just, I 83 00:04:56.500 --> 00:05:00.260 interact with a lot of students. And what I was really finding is 84 00:05:00.580 --> 00:05:03.940 they were getting their theological formation on YouTube, almost 85 00:05:04.180 --> 00:05:07.500 all of them that I was Talking to were getting 86 00:05:07.500 --> 00:05:11.260 theologically formed by YouTubers primarily, or people that had 87 00:05:11.260 --> 00:05:14.940 a YouTube presence. And the more I went down the rabbit 88 00:05:14.940 --> 00:05:18.700 hole, I realized there's not a ton of methodist presence on YouTube. There's 89 00:05:18.700 --> 00:05:21.460 a ton of Catholic presence. Presbyterians. 90 00:05:22.580 --> 00:05:26.100 I had a commenter the other day say that's because those two traditions 91 00:05:26.660 --> 00:05:29.940 emphasize academics and learning more than 92 00:05:30.180 --> 00:05:33.980 Methodism maybe does. And I thought that was an interesting. That 93 00:05:33.980 --> 00:05:37.580 was an interesting thing. I'm not sure if I completely agree 94 00:05:37.580 --> 00:05:40.820 with, but I think he may be on to something with that also. There's just 95 00:05:40.820 --> 00:05:43.780 a lot of Catholics. There's like, there's over a billion of them. Right. So that's 96 00:05:43.780 --> 00:05:46.500 just that. But. But Presbyterians seem to be 97 00:05:48.030 --> 00:05:51.710 in some ways disproportionately represented on YouTube versus how 98 00:05:51.710 --> 00:05:54.750 many Presbyterians there are. And so I was like, well, there's not a lot of 99 00:05:54.750 --> 00:05:58.430 Methodist present, so I'm gonna. I'm gonna start this and see where it goes. So. 100 00:05:58.830 --> 00:06:02.310 Yeah. All right. So when you were 101 00:06:02.310 --> 00:06:06.030 designing the channel, did you have an audience of your students in mind? 102 00:06:06.910 --> 00:06:10.270 Yeah, that was kind of the audience I started with in mind was, 103 00:06:11.070 --> 00:06:14.590 you know, it's really funny. I didn't, like, sit down and do, like, a plan 104 00:06:14.590 --> 00:06:18.310 and be like, oh, man, I'm gonna target this demographic now. I will tell 105 00:06:18.310 --> 00:06:22.130 you my. Analy tell you. Over 90% 106 00:06:22.130 --> 00:06:25.610 of my viewers are men. And. And 107 00:06:26.570 --> 00:06:30.250 almost 90 plus percent of them are under the age of 40. Okay. 108 00:06:30.330 --> 00:06:34.010 Which is a pretty standard. Fascinating, isn't it? Because if you go through most 109 00:06:34.010 --> 00:06:37.730 churches, those are not the demographics that you see. Yeah, yeah. 110 00:06:37.730 --> 00:06:41.130 Churches these days are mostly older folks and mostly 111 00:06:41.450 --> 00:06:45.290 majority women, for sure. I think. I think the church has 112 00:06:45.290 --> 00:06:48.570 long understood that without the women, the church actually wouldn't operate 113 00:06:49.210 --> 00:06:52.710 because the women do the majority of the work. The congregations I've ever served. 114 00:06:53.190 --> 00:06:56.150 And so it is very interesting 115 00:06:56.790 --> 00:07:00.550 to see that. And I'm sure that's a. That's almost an episode in 116 00:07:00.550 --> 00:07:02.790 and of itself of why that's happening. Yeah. 117 00:07:04.550 --> 00:07:08.390 Was there a specific kind of spiritual hunger or a need that 118 00:07:08.390 --> 00:07:11.510 you were trying to address? Like, when you were laying out the channel, did you 119 00:07:11.510 --> 00:07:14.630 have it in mind to say, like, I definitely need to talk about 120 00:07:15.190 --> 00:07:17.980 this topic and this topic. Yeah. 121 00:07:18.780 --> 00:07:22.620 What I have noticed, Ryan, and this is a larger trend 122 00:07:22.620 --> 00:07:25.740 that's starting to bear out in the data. And so I'm starting to say it 123 00:07:25.740 --> 00:07:29.420 more and more confidently. I firmly believe that the 124 00:07:29.420 --> 00:07:33.020 pendulum is shifting in American religion 125 00:07:33.180 --> 00:07:36.140 back towards traditional expressions of Christianity. 126 00:07:36.940 --> 00:07:39.980 That has been, I think, the case for a while. I think it's been the 127 00:07:39.980 --> 00:07:43.820 case since the pandemic, and I think it's mostly being driven by young 128 00:07:43.820 --> 00:07:47.580 people. And the reason I say that is because when 129 00:07:47.580 --> 00:07:50.920 I started at University, Methodist, of course, it was under the pandemic. But even the 130 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:54.680 year one students were coming back, we had a hard time getting students involved. 131 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:57.640 We would do all sorts of outreach stuff, and we just couldn't get students involved. 132 00:07:57.640 --> 00:08:00.920 But then this year, all of a sudden, there's just 20 133 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:05.600 students just coming every Sunday. I haven't even 134 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:08.960 talked to them. They just show up. That's not 135 00:08:08.960 --> 00:08:12.480 normal. That's not the norm. That those of us who are 136 00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:16.280 millennials and older, the church we've been living in for the last 20 years, that's 137 00:08:16.280 --> 00:08:19.780 not a normative experience. And nothing had really changed. 138 00:08:20.260 --> 00:08:23.100 There wasn't a lot. There wasn't a ton of change that had happened. And when 139 00:08:23.100 --> 00:08:26.700 I got to start talking to some of the students, what I found out is 140 00:08:26.700 --> 00:08:29.980 most of them were interested in traditional expressions of 141 00:08:29.980 --> 00:08:33.220 Christianity, Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox. 142 00:08:33.859 --> 00:08:37.700 They found my church, which is very high church, Methodism. Of course, Methodism is a 143 00:08:37.700 --> 00:08:41.460 broad spectrum. Right. In terms of worship, but mine's very high 144 00:08:41.460 --> 00:08:44.900 church, very traditional, and that's what they were resonating with. 145 00:08:45.480 --> 00:08:49.320 And so when I set out to do the channel, I set out 146 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:52.640 to kind of address some of the things that have been coming up in conversation, 147 00:08:52.640 --> 00:08:56.360 which is just like theological matters. Right. I do 148 00:08:56.360 --> 00:08:59.960 believe this, Ryan. This is a critique on Methodism that I think is completely 149 00:08:59.960 --> 00:09:03.600 fair, and that is we have focused so much on 150 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:07.200 doing Christianity and Methodism that we have forgotten how to articulate the 151 00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:10.680 faith, and we don't articulate the faith as well as we could. 152 00:09:11.390 --> 00:09:15.070 And we are in an era where I actually think that's more important than 153 00:09:15.070 --> 00:09:18.830 ever because there are so many articulations accessible. And 154 00:09:18.830 --> 00:09:22.230 so articulating Wesleyan Arminianism. Right. Articulating that 155 00:09:22.230 --> 00:09:25.790 viewpoint is important, and what we say about God 156 00:09:25.790 --> 00:09:28.750 matters. And so what I set out on the channel, it was. I'm going to 157 00:09:28.750 --> 00:09:32.350 talk about that hard. The hard 158 00:09:32.350 --> 00:09:36.110 theology stuff that isn't being addressed by 159 00:09:36.270 --> 00:09:40.010 our churches a lot. Yeah. How much of 160 00:09:40.010 --> 00:09:43.770 that, in terms of lose. Kind of losing the language to 161 00:09:43.770 --> 00:09:47.170 express the faith or being. Yeah. Unable to 162 00:09:47.170 --> 00:09:50.890 articulate. How much do you attribute that to. To kind 163 00:09:50.890 --> 00:09:54.370 of being a complexity of. Of faith? 164 00:09:54.450 --> 00:09:58.210 Because I can remember, like, wanting to sit down for 165 00:09:58.530 --> 00:10:02.290 ordination interviews, for example, and just wishing that I could just kind 166 00:10:02.290 --> 00:10:06.140 of say, like, well, in. In Second Corinthians, it says this, 167 00:10:06.140 --> 00:10:09.100 and then everybody would just kind of be like, yeah, that's what it says. All 168 00:10:09.100 --> 00:10:12.780 right, next question. Yeah, yeah, but there's more to it than that. So 169 00:10:13.580 --> 00:10:17.300 as part of what you're trying to accomplish, like providing a lens for people 170 00:10:17.300 --> 00:10:20.900 to begin to identify how they might 171 00:10:20.900 --> 00:10:24.740 articulate some of these deeper topics or. Yes, 172 00:10:24.740 --> 00:10:28.420 I specifically think the Wesleyan Armenian and when. I mean, Armenian for 173 00:10:28.420 --> 00:10:31.020 viewers who may not know the, the kind of free will approach 174 00:10:32.210 --> 00:10:34.770 to the way God works in our salvation. Right. 175 00:10:35.730 --> 00:10:39.410 That perspective is somewhat unique in Christianity 176 00:10:41.330 --> 00:10:44.650 in terms of. There's a lot of more. The predestination side, the 177 00:10:44.650 --> 00:10:48.450 Calvinism side, even Catholicism is a form of predestination. 178 00:10:49.970 --> 00:10:53.650 But that Wesleyan Arminianism, I think is such an 179 00:10:53.650 --> 00:10:57.290 important witness in the modern world. And Methodism is such 180 00:10:57.290 --> 00:11:00.460 a. I always call it a thinking person's tradition. And I think 181 00:11:00.460 --> 00:11:04.100 Catholicism and Presbyterianism are thinking persons traditions as 182 00:11:04.100 --> 00:11:06.460 well, where we really emphasize 183 00:11:08.140 --> 00:11:11.700 the, the proper articulation of God or 184 00:11:11.700 --> 00:11:15.420 actually the rigorous academic trying to understand God and 185 00:11:15.420 --> 00:11:19.220 study who God is and understand that. And yeah, there is a 186 00:11:19.220 --> 00:11:22.940 complexity to it that I think, I think 187 00:11:22.940 --> 00:11:26.670 sometimes we don't want to take on because it is like you said, 188 00:11:26.670 --> 00:11:29.550 you know, I wish we could, I wish we could just say, well, 189 00:11:30.350 --> 00:11:33.310 we're just all going to love Jesus and do stuff, but it's just not that 190 00:11:33.310 --> 00:11:36.950 simple. Right. Like what we say about God matters. And I think in 191 00:11:36.950 --> 00:11:40.670 this modern day, with Gen Z and below, 192 00:11:41.550 --> 00:11:45.310 they're like, well, why is your articulation of God better? 193 00:11:45.390 --> 00:11:49.070 Or why is your articulate, why should I believe your articulation of who God is 194 00:11:49.070 --> 00:11:52.350 versus what the Catholics are saying or the Eastern Orthodox Church is saying? 195 00:11:53.000 --> 00:11:55.160 And if we don't engage that discussion, 196 00:11:57.160 --> 00:12:00.640 it's really easy to lose it. I think a good example of this is 197 00:12:00.640 --> 00:12:04.400 communion. I think I handled this on our channel. I 198 00:12:04.400 --> 00:12:08.080 think Methodism got very close in the late 20th 199 00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:10.360 century, in the early 21st century, to almost losing 200 00:12:12.760 --> 00:12:16.360 the central place of communion in worship to the point where 201 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:19.560 I was serving in churches, where it almost felt like communion was a chore. It 202 00:12:19.560 --> 00:12:21.680 was like, oh yeah, it's this thing we got to do once a month. It 203 00:12:21.680 --> 00:12:25.400 takes a really long time. But the proper place of communion is actually the 204 00:12:25.400 --> 00:12:28.560 center of our worship. Not preaching, not music. It's supposed to be the 205 00:12:28.560 --> 00:12:31.920 centerpiece. And we almost lost that in our tradition. 206 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:35.880 And so I see a lot of younger ministers trying to like reclaim that piece. 207 00:12:35.880 --> 00:12:39.720 And so because it is so complex, I think sometimes we just would 208 00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:43.480 rather throw up our hands and be like, let's just, let's Just serve God and 209 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:46.640 love God. And I think that's great. But I also think about what we say 210 00:12:46.640 --> 00:12:49.120 about God matters, and we should engage that part of the faith as well. 211 00:12:51.300 --> 00:12:55.100 Yeah, I love that idea of kind of reclaiming communion 212 00:12:55.100 --> 00:12:58.700 as the. The centerpiece, not just of, like, the worship service, but as the 213 00:12:58.700 --> 00:13:02.140 centerpiece of kind of our. Our rhythmic community, our 214 00:13:02.140 --> 00:13:05.900 existence. Yeah, yeah. It's. It's. It really should 215 00:13:05.900 --> 00:13:09.460 be the centerpiece of our existence, like, as Christians. Right. Like, it is 216 00:13:10.420 --> 00:13:14.260 the one thing that we have done from the very beginning that is basically 217 00:13:14.340 --> 00:13:18.100 untouched and unaltered. I mean, it's been altered, 218 00:13:18.100 --> 00:13:21.380 obviously, in the way that we do the liturgy, but 219 00:13:21.700 --> 00:13:25.340 for the most part, the rhythm of it is pretty much 220 00:13:25.340 --> 00:13:28.900 the same. And it is. We are spiritual 221 00:13:28.900 --> 00:13:32.420 presence people. And what I mean by that is we believe that 222 00:13:32.580 --> 00:13:36.340 the presence of the resurrected Christ is present in the communion elements, that it's 223 00:13:36.340 --> 00:13:40.060 not a symbol. Right. And a lot of American evangelicalism treats 224 00:13:40.060 --> 00:13:43.910 communion as symbolic. Right. And so if we're truly going to be spiritual 225 00:13:43.910 --> 00:13:47.670 presence people, we should be having communion weekly in our churches at 226 00:13:47.670 --> 00:13:51.350 the minimum. And so that's kind of where I'm at on that. And 227 00:13:51.350 --> 00:13:55.110 I think it's a really good example of when theology gets 228 00:13:55.110 --> 00:13:58.790 watered down so much because it's complex and we start to water it 229 00:13:58.790 --> 00:14:02.630 down to people too much, we end up losing key pieces 230 00:14:02.630 --> 00:14:05.710 of it. And so it's kind of a balancing act. Yeah. 231 00:14:08.680 --> 00:14:12.400 So do you ever feel like you have to. What? Within the 232 00:14:12.400 --> 00:14:16.160 context of YouTube, do you feel like you have to water down some of 233 00:14:16.160 --> 00:14:18.520 what you're talking about in order to be 234 00:14:19.240 --> 00:14:22.920 relatable to a particular audience or maybe more. 235 00:14:23.240 --> 00:14:26.720 More poignantly, to even, like, engage with an 236 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:29.720 audience. To find an audience. Yeah. Because it is an open space. 237 00:14:30.280 --> 00:14:33.800 You're certainly not going to academics. You're trying to create something that is 238 00:14:33.800 --> 00:14:37.390 accessible to anybody. Right? Yeah, That's a really good question. 239 00:14:37.390 --> 00:14:40.870 You know, it makes me think of Adam Hamilton. I think Adam 240 00:14:40.870 --> 00:14:44.590 Hamilton's greatest. One of his greatest gifts, among many that he has, 241 00:14:44.750 --> 00:14:48.390 is his ability to articulate complex theological ideas in a way 242 00:14:48.390 --> 00:14:52.030 that can be broadly understood by the general public. That is not 243 00:14:52.030 --> 00:14:55.870 easy to do and to do it without making errors 244 00:14:56.350 --> 00:14:59.950 consistently, it's very difficult to do that. And so 245 00:15:00.430 --> 00:15:04.270 in the. I. I don't feel like on my channel, I have to water down 246 00:15:04.270 --> 00:15:07.860 too much. I more just try to take. I either do my own original 247 00:15:07.860 --> 00:15:11.660 content, or I take content and react and give commentary to 248 00:15:11.660 --> 00:15:14.180 it. And what I try to do is basically explain 249 00:15:15.300 --> 00:15:19.100 whatever the person is talking about or add to it in a way that 250 00:15:19.100 --> 00:15:22.780 I feel like anyone with an 8th 251 00:15:22.780 --> 00:15:26.580 grade education can probably understand. And I don't think that that's watering 252 00:15:26.580 --> 00:15:30.340 it down because the essentials of the faith are like, complex, 253 00:15:31.300 --> 00:15:33.940 like the Trinity. Right. Trinity is a very complex idea, but 254 00:15:35.090 --> 00:15:38.850 it's simple in the sense that it's best understood as a mystery. Right. 255 00:15:39.010 --> 00:15:41.850 That's a very simple thing. But if you really try to dive into the Trinity, 256 00:15:41.850 --> 00:15:44.530 it's a very complex thing. And so I try to. 257 00:15:45.730 --> 00:15:49.490 I try to both be communicative in a way 258 00:15:49.490 --> 00:15:53.250 that most people can understand, but also to respect my audience enough 259 00:15:53.890 --> 00:15:56.530 that they can understand difficult things as well. 260 00:15:58.530 --> 00:16:01.720 That's a really good question. I'd have to think probably more on. Yeah. 261 00:16:02.510 --> 00:16:06.150 But when bringing theology into public open 262 00:16:06.150 --> 00:16:09.310 spaces, I find that there are 263 00:16:09.790 --> 00:16:13.310 two kinds of topics 264 00:16:13.390 --> 00:16:16.910 that tend to garner the most 265 00:16:16.910 --> 00:16:20.110 response. That there are. There are those topics which 266 00:16:20.350 --> 00:16:24.030 touch people off in the negative aspect. Yeah. The argumentative 267 00:16:24.030 --> 00:16:27.790 side of things. I did one of those yesterday. So that's why. Hey, 268 00:16:27.790 --> 00:16:30.850 let's talk about that in a little bit. Yeah. Table it for now, though. But 269 00:16:30.850 --> 00:16:34.570 then there are. There's the. There are the topics that touch 270 00:16:34.570 --> 00:16:38.370 people off because they find them valuable. And I'm wondering if 271 00:16:38.370 --> 00:16:41.890 you've been at it long enough on YouTube to. To notice, are there specific 272 00:16:41.890 --> 00:16:45.370 topics that people are responding to because they find 273 00:16:45.530 --> 00:16:48.970 this theological viewpoint valuable? Yeah. 274 00:16:49.130 --> 00:16:52.650 You know, it's really interesting. I think the YouTube algorithm likes controversy, 275 00:16:52.810 --> 00:16:56.650 for sure. Of course it does, because humans like controversy. Right. 276 00:16:57.150 --> 00:17:00.830 People say, oh, the algorithm does this or the algorithm does that. No, no, 277 00:17:00.830 --> 00:17:04.670 no. Humans do that. Right. And the algorithm feeds what humans want. 278 00:17:04.830 --> 00:17:08.630 Right. That's the fact that controversy does well on YouTube is not an algorithmic 279 00:17:08.630 --> 00:17:12.430 problem. It's a human problem. Right. So the algorithm is just responding 280 00:17:12.430 --> 00:17:16.270 to what we keep asking. The algorithm's amoral. Yeah, the algorithm's amoral. It 281 00:17:16.270 --> 00:17:19.590 doesn't have morals. Humans. Yeah. It's just feeding us what we want, which is 282 00:17:19.590 --> 00:17:21.230 controversy. I think 283 00:17:23.730 --> 00:17:27.410 what I've noticed and I've been surprised at what does a lot of views and 284 00:17:27.410 --> 00:17:31.210 what people engage with is apologetics, like, straight up. And 285 00:17:31.210 --> 00:17:34.850 I have been quoted before by people to say 286 00:17:34.850 --> 00:17:38.490 apologetics is mostly a waste of time. I have said that in my 287 00:17:38.490 --> 00:17:41.170 ministerial role because I've always felt that 288 00:17:42.050 --> 00:17:45.810 faith is to be experienced, not argued into. Right. And this 289 00:17:45.810 --> 00:17:49.460 comes to the point of Jesus, right. Jesus saying, come and see. Right. 290 00:17:49.460 --> 00:17:52.580 Jesus doesn't spend a bunch of time making a, like, 291 00:17:52.900 --> 00:17:56.500 argument for God or for himself. He Says, why don't you come and 292 00:17:56.500 --> 00:18:00.100 see what it is that I'm doing, right? It's this invitational 293 00:18:00.260 --> 00:18:03.740 experiential thing. But then I come to kind of understand that 294 00:18:03.740 --> 00:18:06.900 apologetics is a way that some people come to faith. 295 00:18:07.300 --> 00:18:11.140 That's the way that they are able to get there. And so apologetics 296 00:18:11.140 --> 00:18:14.700 specifically between Protestants and Catholics, the differences between 297 00:18:14.700 --> 00:18:18.080 Protestants and Catholics, those videos do wild numbers 298 00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:22.200 and that for some reason, I can do a. I can do a commentary over 299 00:18:22.200 --> 00:18:25.920 the book of Exodus, and it's going to do 10% what, 300 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:30.280 a video about critiquing a Catholic thing that 301 00:18:30.280 --> 00:18:33.800 I've seen or discussing the differences between Protestantism and 302 00:18:33.800 --> 00:18:37.600 Catholicism. That does a lot of. That does a 303 00:18:37.600 --> 00:18:41.040 lot of numbers, because I think that young people are searching for, 304 00:18:41.280 --> 00:18:44.380 who am I? Am I Catholic? Am I going to be a Protestant? And they're 305 00:18:44.380 --> 00:18:48.020 researching that for themselves. And so what I'm trying to provide is this is what 306 00:18:48.020 --> 00:18:51.100 a Methodist is, right? This is what we believe, at least what I believe 307 00:18:52.380 --> 00:18:56.100 and my interpretation of the tradition. And I feel like that's 308 00:18:56.100 --> 00:18:59.180 the most helpful thing I can do for our. For our tradition. So. 309 00:19:00.700 --> 00:19:04.380 All right, so did. 310 00:19:04.780 --> 00:19:08.100 How would you describe, then, apologetics for the. Maybe the 311 00:19:08.100 --> 00:19:11.660 uninitiated or. Yeah, that's a. Yeah. Apologetics is basically just 312 00:19:11.660 --> 00:19:15.180 arguments for God, right? Arguing for the existence of God or arguing why 313 00:19:15.180 --> 00:19:17.800 Christianity identity is correct versus other 314 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:22.240 faith traditions. Right. And I think that 315 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:25.520 there's a lot of value in that in the modern day. And I've actually seen 316 00:19:25.520 --> 00:19:29.120 a lot of people, I've had comments on my videos where people are like, hey, 317 00:19:29.120 --> 00:19:32.560 I've been researching. I'm going to go to a Methodist church on Sunday because I 318 00:19:32.560 --> 00:19:36.400 found this channel. And this, this is. This is who I. What I 319 00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:39.800 was looking for. This is how I felt about faith. But I couldn't find a 320 00:19:39.800 --> 00:19:43.610 home. And now I found it, right? Or I've had people say that they 321 00:19:43.610 --> 00:19:47.250 found the channel and they're thinking about converting to Christianity. Right. And so it's 322 00:19:47.250 --> 00:19:51.010 like, I have my parish ministry here, right. 323 00:19:51.410 --> 00:19:55.010 But the world is my parish, right? And, and I'll tell you, 324 00:19:55.570 --> 00:19:59.250 going back to that earlier question, I. Somebody asked me, why did you want to 325 00:19:59.250 --> 00:20:01.850 do a YouTube channel? When I first started, and I meant to tell this story, 326 00:20:01.850 --> 00:20:05.570 Ryan, is that I didn't actually. 327 00:20:06.290 --> 00:20:10.110 I have always felt that YouTube, it always felt 328 00:20:10.110 --> 00:20:13.790 watered down. It always felt like even though I was a 329 00:20:13.790 --> 00:20:16.990 consumer of it, it was not a space I wanted to enter. It was almost 330 00:20:16.990 --> 00:20:20.670 like an undignified space, Right? The dignified space 331 00:20:20.670 --> 00:20:24.510 is Academic papers or the pulpit or the 332 00:20:24.510 --> 00:20:27.790 church. And the YouTube was kind of this open air 333 00:20:27.790 --> 00:20:31.590 preaching, new style of the world being the 334 00:20:31.590 --> 00:20:35.230 parish. And then I thought of the story from John Wesley's life where he finally 335 00:20:35.230 --> 00:20:38.390 relents and decides to preach outside when he doesn't want to 336 00:20:39.830 --> 00:20:43.250 be more of a. He's commits to be more vile. And that's essentially why I 337 00:20:43.250 --> 00:20:45.770 started the channel. It was like, I have to. I feel like I have to 338 00:20:45.770 --> 00:20:49.250 do this because that's where the fruit is. Okay. 339 00:20:49.810 --> 00:20:52.770 All right. So as you're expounding, 340 00:20:53.010 --> 00:20:56.770 expanding, talking about apologies, whatever it 341 00:20:56.770 --> 00:20:59.090 is. Yeah. You know the word that I'm going for there, 342 00:21:00.530 --> 00:21:04.170 Are you to get a sense that you're. You're trying to 343 00:21:04.170 --> 00:21:07.770 ease people of doubt or, I don't know, explain away 344 00:21:07.770 --> 00:21:11.610 doubt? Or do you feel like doubt has a place within the 345 00:21:11.610 --> 00:21:15.430 faith journey? Doubt definitely has a place. I mean, if 346 00:21:15.430 --> 00:21:19.110 doubt is driving you to a deeper place in your faith and 347 00:21:19.110 --> 00:21:22.270 it's healthy, if you're not dealing with your doubts. 348 00:21:23.230 --> 00:21:26.830 Now this, this sounds more like a pastoral counseling session. Now, if you're not 349 00:21:26.830 --> 00:21:30.550 dealing with your doubts or you let your doubts tear you down, then it's not 350 00:21:30.550 --> 00:21:34.150 healthy. Right. Doubt in and of itself is not a sin. It's how you 351 00:21:34.150 --> 00:21:37.670 respond to it. It's much like anger. Right. Anger in and of itself is not 352 00:21:37.670 --> 00:21:41.390 a sin. What you do with anger is, is where it can 353 00:21:41.390 --> 00:21:45.190 be sinful. And so I don't try and explain away doubt. I try 354 00:21:45.190 --> 00:21:48.910 to explain how I understand the faith and how I've gotten 355 00:21:48.910 --> 00:21:51.910 there. Right. Like, one of, you know, we always talk about, like, the historical 356 00:21:52.710 --> 00:21:56.550 arguments for Jesus. Right. Like, there's more historical evidence for the 357 00:21:56.550 --> 00:22:00.190 resurrection of Christ than almost any event at that time, more than any event 358 00:22:00.190 --> 00:22:03.710 of that time period. And we accept all those other events as 359 00:22:03.710 --> 00:22:07.350 historical facts. Right. And so, but there's way more 360 00:22:07.350 --> 00:22:10.400 outside, like just having so many 361 00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:13.440 manuscripts of the New Testament from 362 00:22:14.320 --> 00:22:18.080 very, very close to the purported event itself. And we 363 00:22:18.080 --> 00:22:21.640 have events from Roman history that we treat as fact. And the 364 00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:25.320 closest manuscript we have to the event is like 800 years after the 365 00:22:25.320 --> 00:22:28.800 event. And we treat that as a thing that actually happened. Right. So 366 00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:33.680 we have a very broad set of historical 367 00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:37.500 documents of people who knew people who 368 00:22:37.500 --> 00:22:40.780 were there. Right. And I feel like that's a very compelling case to a lot 369 00:22:40.780 --> 00:22:44.420 of people. And so there's always going to be doubt. Right. Because we can't 370 00:22:44.420 --> 00:22:47.700 prove it. But I think it helps people to say, okay, 371 00:22:48.420 --> 00:22:52.020 if I'm an intellectual and I'm coming at this from an intellectual angle, 372 00:22:52.420 --> 00:22:55.940 this may be how I can first open my 373 00:22:55.940 --> 00:22:59.300 heart and open my mind to the possibility of faith 374 00:22:59.620 --> 00:23:02.370 is through those more historical arguments. 375 00:23:04.040 --> 00:23:07.600 So has this process of trying to first uncover the 376 00:23:07.600 --> 00:23:11.320 questions that other people might be asking and then offering a 377 00:23:11.320 --> 00:23:15.120 perspective on them, has that journey impacted your 378 00:23:15.120 --> 00:23:18.960 own faith in any way? I would say that's actually the biggest impact it's 379 00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:22.040 had. I feel like my faith 380 00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:26.200 has been pretty static probably 381 00:23:26.680 --> 00:23:29.880 over the last five to six years. I've been very knee deep in ministry, 382 00:23:30.760 --> 00:23:33.960 doing stuff, you know, getting fixed, 383 00:23:34.500 --> 00:23:38.140 doing part again. And what I really discovered in and of myself is a 384 00:23:38.140 --> 00:23:41.820 renewed faith that I found in the tradition. 385 00:23:41.820 --> 00:23:44.580 The more I've studied in order to provide content, 386 00:23:45.940 --> 00:23:49.740 the more I've unlocked this rich, specifically 387 00:23:49.740 --> 00:23:53.420 Western Christian tradition that we come out of 388 00:23:53.420 --> 00:23:56.580 in Methodism, out of the Protestant Reformation, right. 389 00:23:57.060 --> 00:24:00.670 Is that the Protestant Reformation was never meant to. 390 00:24:01.300 --> 00:24:05.100 To start a new church. That wasn't the point. It was meant to reform the 391 00:24:05.100 --> 00:24:08.220 Roman Catholic Church. And then they got kicked out. And so they were like, well, 392 00:24:08.220 --> 00:24:11.340 I guess we're kicked out, so we have to start. So Luther, you know, he 393 00:24:11.340 --> 00:24:14.820 didn't try and start his own church. That wasn't really the point. And so this, 394 00:24:14.820 --> 00:24:18.540 this Protestant tradition is really. To be a Protestant is to 395 00:24:18.540 --> 00:24:21.620 say this is what the church is kind of supposed to be. Right. 396 00:24:22.100 --> 00:24:25.460 Without all of the extra stuff that we don't feel is essential as 397 00:24:25.460 --> 00:24:29.190 Protestants. And so my. But my hope 398 00:24:29.190 --> 00:24:32.590 is, is that the church can come back together, of course, in the future 399 00:24:32.830 --> 00:24:35.950 and reunify. But it has really informed my faith. 400 00:24:36.510 --> 00:24:40.310 Some of the Latin pieces of the faith from the, you know, something I 401 00:24:40.310 --> 00:24:43.510 listen to quite a bit is Anima Christi, which is a Latin chant from the 402 00:24:43.510 --> 00:24:47.230 11th century. That's something I found in the course of my study. So it 403 00:24:47.230 --> 00:24:50.870 really has enlivened my faith and allowed me to reach back 404 00:24:50.870 --> 00:24:54.670 in time to the tradition itself and find 405 00:24:54.670 --> 00:24:58.510 where my place is in it as a Methodist. What 406 00:24:58.510 --> 00:25:01.150 our place is in it. All right. 407 00:25:02.510 --> 00:25:05.310 Does it also help you 408 00:25:05.630 --> 00:25:09.470 articulate or formulate stances on some of the hot 409 00:25:09.870 --> 00:25:13.670 button topics you already alluded to? Like the video 410 00:25:13.670 --> 00:25:17.470 that you just released. That's, you know, probably a hot 411 00:25:17.470 --> 00:25:21.230 button topic. Sure, yeah. Even afraid to say. Why am I afraid to say it? 412 00:25:21.390 --> 00:25:25.010 Are we talking about the abortion? Yeah, yeah, yeah. My. I did a video on 413 00:25:25.010 --> 00:25:28.530 abortion and I, I feel like I've never been 414 00:25:28.530 --> 00:25:31.690 afraid. In fact, I actually, before I posted the video, I asked myself, 415 00:25:32.810 --> 00:25:36.490 you know, I'm 32, almost 33 now. I'm not 22 416 00:25:36.570 --> 00:25:40.210 anymore. And there's a big difference. You start to really think things 417 00:25:40.210 --> 00:25:43.970 through more at once your frontal lobe is fully developed. You 418 00:25:43.970 --> 00:25:47.050 start to really think things through because you've had some experience of things blowing up 419 00:25:47.050 --> 00:25:49.930 in your face, right? And so you're like, I don't want to say you become 420 00:25:49.930 --> 00:25:53.720 more risk averse, but you start to ask yourself more reflective questions 421 00:25:53.720 --> 00:25:57.120 before you do things. And I asked myself, is this going to be helpful 422 00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:02.000 to people? And did I do it correctly for something 423 00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:05.640 that's so difficult to talk about? And I had some 424 00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:09.280 hesitations, but I decided to post it anyway because I feel 425 00:26:09.280 --> 00:26:12.880 like we have to change the way we talk about things, 426 00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:16.280 right? We have to be willing to be a little bit more empathetic and gracious 427 00:26:16.280 --> 00:26:19.880 and compassionate in our disagreements with each other. And I felt that's what the 428 00:26:19.880 --> 00:26:23.000 video did. And so I was like, okay, I'm going to go ahead and post 429 00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:26.730 it. But yeah, it. Reaching back in the 430 00:26:26.730 --> 00:26:30.530 tradition has helped me articulate some of my more progressive, I 431 00:26:30.530 --> 00:26:33.810 think some people would call it some of my more progressive or modern viewpoints. It's 432 00:26:33.810 --> 00:26:37.650 helped me get better arguments for them. I've been better at articulating 433 00:26:37.650 --> 00:26:41.370 them because I'm having to defend them. Right. And so I've really found myself 434 00:26:41.370 --> 00:26:45.010 actually changing the way I think on certain issues. Not changing my position, 435 00:26:45.330 --> 00:26:48.970 but changing how I get there. And that's been probably 436 00:26:48.970 --> 00:26:51.410 one of the most valuable things for me personally in this journey. 437 00:26:55.030 --> 00:26:58.150 And. I've heard you 438 00:26:58.390 --> 00:27:01.910 articulate a, a sense of importance about 439 00:27:01.990 --> 00:27:05.590 the church or the community of faith as you're putting your videos 440 00:27:05.590 --> 00:27:07.829 together. Do you ever have the idea of 441 00:27:09.190 --> 00:27:12.990 this being a vehicle directly for people to kind 442 00:27:12.990 --> 00:27:15.870 of come in contact with the community of faith? Like, do you hope that somebody 443 00:27:15.870 --> 00:27:19.510 watches your video and is like, well, I think I want to go to 444 00:27:19.510 --> 00:27:23.190 church. Yeah, you know, I, I've been thinking about that a lot 445 00:27:23.990 --> 00:27:27.110 is how do I, how do I help people 446 00:27:27.430 --> 00:27:31.150 encounter the church? I did a short on this, a YouTube short 447 00:27:31.150 --> 00:27:34.990 on this a couple of weeks ago that got a lot of nasty 448 00:27:34.990 --> 00:27:38.830 comments. And the, the YouTube short was, you can't be a solo Christian. And I 449 00:27:38.830 --> 00:27:41.990 spent 15 seconds basically saying, if you are 450 00:27:44.080 --> 00:27:47.760 singing worship songs in the car and, and listening to a sermon in the car 451 00:27:47.840 --> 00:27:51.680 and never going to church, that's not Christianity. You are out of communion 452 00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:54.840 actually with the church. And a lot of people did not like that. They did 453 00:27:54.840 --> 00:27:58.240 not like that. But I was like, but that's, that's the historic position of the 454 00:27:58.240 --> 00:28:01.840 church is that you have to be in communion with the body. And it 455 00:28:01.840 --> 00:28:05.520 is, it is super important that we say that, I think, 456 00:28:05.840 --> 00:28:09.160 and not in a mean way, but just to say, if you are in that 457 00:28:09.160 --> 00:28:12.800 place, that's great and I'm glad you're doing that. But you'll only 458 00:28:12.800 --> 00:28:16.480 grow if you have a community of faith that can grow around you. Right. And 459 00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:20.280 that's basically what I said. I wasn't mean about it or anything like that, but 460 00:28:20.280 --> 00:28:23.960 I, I, it's been learning to find my voice in that 461 00:28:23.960 --> 00:28:27.600 and to be willing to say some of those tougher pastoral things that I maybe 462 00:28:27.600 --> 00:28:30.480 need to say. But there were a lot of people who are like, no, you 463 00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:34.160 can do that. I'm like, But I, 464 00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:37.680 I feel like sometimes as pastors in the, in the endeavor to be 465 00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:41.290 pastoral, we don't say the thing that needs to be 466 00:28:41.290 --> 00:28:45.010 said. And I think that's a huge mistake 467 00:28:45.010 --> 00:28:48.690 for pastors sometimes is that a lot of times in the 468 00:28:48.690 --> 00:28:52.250 endeavor, in the journey of trying to be pastoral, 469 00:28:52.810 --> 00:28:56.170 we don't say the thing that is true. And 470 00:28:56.410 --> 00:29:00.210 I have found in my ministry that when I choose to say the hard 471 00:29:00.210 --> 00:29:03.610 thing that is true, it always ends up better 472 00:29:03.850 --> 00:29:07.530 than avoiding it. Right. To say the thing that needs to be said always 473 00:29:07.530 --> 00:29:11.370 ends up better. It's hard, it's super hard in that five 474 00:29:11.370 --> 00:29:15.170 minutes where you're having to have a tough conversation. But it, it is always better 475 00:29:15.170 --> 00:29:18.890 than the harder conversation that comes if you ignore those things. And so, 476 00:29:18.890 --> 00:29:22.490 yeah, I've been trying to, I've been trying to steer people towards the church 477 00:29:22.490 --> 00:29:26.170 in that. And that's something I'm probably going to be doing more 478 00:29:27.050 --> 00:29:30.850 as I, as I do. Content is like, hey, here's a tutorial on how to 479 00:29:30.850 --> 00:29:34.650 find a church for you. Right? Like, that's a great video I might do 480 00:29:34.810 --> 00:29:37.800 at some point. Like, you got to decide what kind of worship you know you 481 00:29:37.800 --> 00:29:41.520 want if you can't go to church on Sundays. There are churches that do church. 482 00:29:41.760 --> 00:29:45.520 Not on Sunday. Right. And so helping people make that 483 00:29:45.520 --> 00:29:48.400 first leap into walking into a church. Yeah, it's important. 484 00:29:49.120 --> 00:29:52.720 Oh, well, since you are kind of out in the, in the 485 00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:56.360 agora, in the public place meeting people 486 00:29:56.360 --> 00:29:59.960 who are maybe faith curious but don't have that 487 00:29:59.960 --> 00:30:03.800 faith background. For somebody who is curious about Jesus or curious 488 00:30:03.800 --> 00:30:07.590 about Christianity but really unsure where to start, do you have 489 00:30:07.820 --> 00:30:11.340 some recommendations for where they might go? Should they 490 00:30:11.660 --> 00:30:14.860 be scrolling YouTube and go to church? You know, 491 00:30:16.300 --> 00:30:20.020 it would be ecclesiologically wrong for me to 492 00:30:20.020 --> 00:30:23.660 say start anywhere other than the church. The church. The church 493 00:30:23.820 --> 00:30:27.580 is the body of Christ in the world. And I understand if you're 494 00:30:27.580 --> 00:30:31.380 watching this, you may be like, but, man, I had a really bad experience with 495 00:30:31.380 --> 00:30:34.700 church. Or this happened. Or this happened. I totally get that. 496 00:30:36.130 --> 00:30:39.570 100 empathize with that. But there is no way 497 00:30:40.210 --> 00:30:43.930 ever that God, that your encounter with God 498 00:30:43.930 --> 00:30:47.690 is going to generally be more likely to be better at YouTube 499 00:30:47.690 --> 00:30:51.330 than it is inside the body of Christ. I, I just feel like 500 00:30:52.690 --> 00:30:56.530 you can have a bad experience. It's safer. YouTube's safer. Right. You can, 501 00:30:56.530 --> 00:30:59.970 you can watch it from the comfort of your home. There's less risk to you, 502 00:31:00.210 --> 00:31:03.860 but there's also less possibility of reward, in my opinion, of the 503 00:31:03.860 --> 00:31:06.860 real relationships that you can find. And here's what I would say. If you're a 504 00:31:06.860 --> 00:31:10.700 young person and you're like, man, you know, I don't know 505 00:31:10.700 --> 00:31:12.820 where to go to church, or I'm looking for a church for the first time. 506 00:31:12.820 --> 00:31:15.860 I'm, like, kind of Christian or I'm exploring Christianity. One of the best things you 507 00:31:15.860 --> 00:31:19.620 can do. I'm not kidding about this. Find a little church in 508 00:31:19.620 --> 00:31:23.180 your town that has got like 30 people on Sunday 509 00:31:23.180 --> 00:31:27.020 morning and show up and they're gonna love you. I, like, 510 00:31:27.020 --> 00:31:30.300 I, I, most of the time they're gonna be like, like, you're going to be 511 00:31:30.300 --> 00:31:33.100 in charge of that church in like, six months. Because they're going to be like, 512 00:31:33.100 --> 00:31:35.980 this is awesome. We got this new young. If you want to, like, have a 513 00:31:36.060 --> 00:31:39.900 big impact in a church and a community of faith, you can go to 514 00:31:39.900 --> 00:31:43.220 a mega church. Yeah. And like, you can go to all that and you can 515 00:31:43.220 --> 00:31:46.940 do that. But if you go to a small mainline Protestant church 516 00:31:46.940 --> 00:31:50.140 in your town and you plug in, you could 517 00:31:50.380 --> 00:31:54.060 basically, you can have a much larger impact doing that 518 00:31:54.060 --> 00:31:57.860 because those churches are looking for those people. That's, that's who they 519 00:31:57.860 --> 00:32:01.570 want. And yes, you're going to have conflict. Yes. Things are maybe not all 520 00:32:01.640 --> 00:32:04.440 always going to go your way in that, but that's the church. Right. And it's 521 00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:08.280 so much more rewarding to accomplish something in 522 00:32:08.280 --> 00:32:11.960 faith with the body than it is on your own, because that's how 523 00:32:11.960 --> 00:32:14.040 Christ intended for us to do it. So 524 00:32:15.640 --> 00:32:18.640 that's funny. And if you're in those shoes, if that, if you fit the bill 525 00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:21.960 and you're in Nashville, Tennessee, reach out. I know just the church for you. 526 00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:25.560 Absolutely. I'm sure. I was about to say Ryan's probably got a church for you 527 00:32:25.560 --> 00:32:29.120 to go to, because there's so many that are like that that all it would 528 00:32:29.120 --> 00:32:32.920 take is a couple young families to transform that church. And you would actually. 529 00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:38.120 It's like I don't think sometimes people realize it's like you should never do things 530 00:32:38.120 --> 00:32:41.880 for selfish, like ambition. Right. Like 531 00:32:41.960 --> 00:32:44.680 you don't want to be selfish in it. But it's like I always tell people 532 00:32:44.760 --> 00:32:48.600 like, you know, it's so funny, like if you're just like a young family, 533 00:32:48.760 --> 00:32:52.480 you could probably end up going to some church and if you really engage 534 00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:54.760 there and the church kind of comes up like they're probably going to name the 535 00:32:54.760 --> 00:32:58.360 church after you. Right. Like, like because, because they're, they're going to be 536 00:32:58.360 --> 00:33:02.100 so that you came and did that and that's never going to happen 537 00:33:02.100 --> 00:33:05.900 in more of the kind of corporate megachurch environment which is, which is really 538 00:33:05.900 --> 00:33:09.580 geared towards seeker sensitive kind of stuff. And so if you're really looking 539 00:33:09.580 --> 00:33:12.940 to dig your claws in and really make an impact, one of the best things 540 00:33:12.940 --> 00:33:16.380 you can do. Yeah. Is is show up to a small to medium sized church 541 00:33:16.380 --> 00:33:19.700 and just dig your teeth in and really try and get involved. Yeah. 542 00:33:21.540 --> 00:33:24.780 Well, I may be kind of asking for a friend on this mat. Wink, wink, 543 00:33:24.780 --> 00:33:28.380 that's okay. But no doubt 544 00:33:28.380 --> 00:33:30.260 whenever you put yourself out there and express 545 00:33:31.700 --> 00:33:34.580 opinions, even with the, with a heart of humility, 546 00:33:35.300 --> 00:33:38.700 people are going to come at you at least in you know like a YouTube 547 00:33:38.700 --> 00:33:42.380 space or any kind of social media space. So when 548 00:33:42.380 --> 00:33:45.220 that happens, how do you kind of 549 00:33:45.620 --> 00:33:49.380 rebuff yourself or you know, keep it from 550 00:33:49.380 --> 00:33:52.960 taking you to a negative space? Yeah. Any of the people 551 00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:56.120 who say that it doesn't affect them are lying. 552 00:33:56.760 --> 00:33:59.640 It does. You see that comment? It's really nasty. 553 00:34:00.520 --> 00:34:04.360 It's. I've had a couple people make comments where I'm 554 00:34:04.360 --> 00:34:07.239 like, that's actually a really good point. And I don't think if I was debating 555 00:34:07.239 --> 00:34:10.240 live with them that I could deal with that actually in the moment. That's actually 556 00:34:10.240 --> 00:34:13.200 a really good point. It makes me rethink things sometimes, which is actually a good 557 00:34:13.200 --> 00:34:16.760 thing. There's fruit in that actually. But yeah, 558 00:34:16.760 --> 00:34:20.520 sometimes there's just mean comments, nasty comments. People call you all sorts of things. 559 00:34:20.520 --> 00:34:23.300 You're not a Christian, you're a heretic or whatever it is. 560 00:34:24.900 --> 00:34:26.340 I think for me, 561 00:34:28.660 --> 00:34:32.380 my co pastor Matt will tell you probably more than most people, I like a 562 00:34:32.380 --> 00:34:36.180 good fight. It's not a great trait, but I 563 00:34:36.180 --> 00:34:40.020 like a good. I'm part of that human condition that feeds 564 00:34:40.020 --> 00:34:43.820 that algorithm. Right. The controversy doesn't bother me 565 00:34:43.820 --> 00:34:47.060 as probably as much as most, but it does. There are sometimes you get a 566 00:34:47.060 --> 00:34:50.690 nasty comment. So what I typically do is I'll type 567 00:34:50.690 --> 00:34:54.410 a response comment and then delete it. Yeah, okay. And 568 00:34:54.410 --> 00:34:58.130 never send it. I feel like my job as a pastor, since I am 569 00:34:58.130 --> 00:35:01.690 a presbyter, I'm an elder, my job is not to 570 00:35:01.850 --> 00:35:05.690 argue so much as it is my first job is to 571 00:35:05.690 --> 00:35:09.530 be a pastor, and my second is to argue my theological points. And 572 00:35:09.530 --> 00:35:12.330 so if I'm ever not being pastoral in an argument, 573 00:35:13.210 --> 00:35:17.020 which I've done on the Internet, and I probably will 574 00:35:17.020 --> 00:35:20.420 do it again, that's probably not what God wants me to do. God wants me 575 00:35:20.420 --> 00:35:23.980 to approach it first as a pastor to the people who are, who are engaging 576 00:35:23.980 --> 00:35:27.740 with my content. But from time to time on a nasty comment, 577 00:35:27.740 --> 00:35:31.100 I will respond because it's also the pastoral thing to do, to 578 00:35:31.100 --> 00:35:34.100 reply to stuff that is particularly egregious, 579 00:35:34.740 --> 00:35:38.380 to make a point that that's not okay or that 580 00:35:38.380 --> 00:35:42.060 that's not going to be acceptable in the community I'm trying to cultivate on the 581 00:35:42.060 --> 00:35:45.690 Internet. It. And so it's kind of a balance. 582 00:35:45.850 --> 00:35:49.450 What I try to do is discern the Spirit in that moment. And 583 00:35:49.530 --> 00:35:53.210 I try and trust my first inclination on that as not my inclination, 584 00:35:53.210 --> 00:35:56.330 but as something God, if my first inclination is 585 00:35:57.450 --> 00:36:01.090 or not first inclination. But if my first discernment of the Spirit is. You should 586 00:36:01.090 --> 00:36:04.810 delete this comment. I usually delete it because I can feel God telling me, 587 00:36:04.890 --> 00:36:07.690 you know, the Spirit. I can feel the Spirit convicting me. That's not going to 588 00:36:07.690 --> 00:36:11.050 be helpful. But there are times where I feel completely convicted. No, I need to 589 00:36:11.050 --> 00:36:13.160 say something about this. But, yeah, 590 00:36:15.640 --> 00:36:18.280 I've learned to accept that when you put your ideas in public, 591 00:36:20.040 --> 00:36:23.880 you are opening yourself to criticism. And there are some videos I'm sure you've seen 592 00:36:23.880 --> 00:36:27.720 where I have been pretty critiquing of 593 00:36:27.720 --> 00:36:31.440 the video. Right. That I'm watching or reacting to that I. I've kind 594 00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:34.880 of felt maybe bad about later. But then I realized, no, when ideas are in 595 00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:38.610 the public space, they are open to public critique. That is the nature of, of 596 00:36:38.610 --> 00:36:42.170 the beast. Now, you never critique people's character unless it is 597 00:36:42.170 --> 00:36:45.850 necessary. But you, you stay on the argument, not their character. 598 00:36:46.730 --> 00:36:50.250 But really vicious critiques on 599 00:36:50.250 --> 00:36:53.930 somebody's content can sometimes feel like you're critiquing their character. And 600 00:36:53.930 --> 00:36:57.570 so I've had to deal with that some too. Yeah, it's kind of that idea 601 00:36:57.570 --> 00:37:01.410 of play the ball, not the player. Play the ball, not the player. But sometimes 602 00:37:01.410 --> 00:37:04.890 you play the ball so hard that it feels like you're playing the player. Right. 603 00:37:06.170 --> 00:37:09.770 I'm critiquing this person's argument. I'm torching it 604 00:37:09.770 --> 00:37:13.530 so much that it feels like I'm torching them and their intellect. 605 00:37:13.530 --> 00:37:16.250 And like, you got to be at that point that you feel like you got 606 00:37:16.250 --> 00:37:19.530 to start to draw back a little bit and, and take a breath and, and 607 00:37:20.090 --> 00:37:23.930 re center yourself. So it's, it's. I'm still learning. I'm still very 608 00:37:23.930 --> 00:37:27.650 new. So has there been a video that's come out for 609 00:37:27.650 --> 00:37:31.330 you yet where you thought, I don't know if this one's gonna hit, and 610 00:37:31.330 --> 00:37:34.950 then surprisingly, it kind of takes off in a mini viral way? 611 00:37:37.740 --> 00:37:41.420 You know, they're. I'm trying to think, you know, some of my best 612 00:37:41.660 --> 00:37:45.500 ones. It's so funny. Many people know who Redeem Zoomer is huge. 613 00:37:45.500 --> 00:37:49.260 The theology YouTuber. He's like 22 years old. Most of the stuff I 614 00:37:49.260 --> 00:37:53.100 react to him does really well because he's just so popular. 615 00:37:54.060 --> 00:37:57.860 I, I've been surprised at the Catholic Protestant stuff when I, 616 00:37:57.860 --> 00:38:01.580 when I do, when I, when I 617 00:38:01.580 --> 00:38:05.140 feel like I rightly critique the Catholic Church on something 618 00:38:06.900 --> 00:38:10.420 those videos do. I never think those videos are going to do well. And they 619 00:38:10.500 --> 00:38:13.980 always do well. And I, I really think it's because 620 00:38:13.980 --> 00:38:17.500 there's a lot of people right now, there's a lot of Gen Z people who 621 00:38:17.500 --> 00:38:21.100 are thinking about becoming Catholic and who are growing up 622 00:38:21.100 --> 00:38:24.900 Protestant. I think that's a real thing that's happening because of the traditional aspects 623 00:38:24.900 --> 00:38:28.660 of it, because it's rooted in tradition in a generation and 624 00:38:28.740 --> 00:38:32.190 in a world that feels so chaotic, that feels 625 00:38:32.510 --> 00:38:36.270 the news cycle every day is so wild. I think it's a generation 626 00:38:36.270 --> 00:38:39.550 that's looking at millennials and they're looking at Gen X and they're saying 627 00:38:40.430 --> 00:38:43.910 secularism, since the year 2000 has 628 00:38:43.910 --> 00:38:47.470 failed to produce fruit in this society 629 00:38:47.950 --> 00:38:51.150 because there was this kind of secular turn at the turn of the century, and 630 00:38:51.230 --> 00:38:54.430 they're looking at the fruit of it, and they're saying, I'm not impressed with 631 00:38:54.510 --> 00:38:58.270 secularism's fruit. And they're looking at the most ancient traditions 632 00:38:58.270 --> 00:39:01.980 because they're like, man, these have lasted for they the 633 00:39:01.980 --> 00:39:05.420 rise and fall of nations, the rise and fall of empires. Nothing has been able 634 00:39:05.420 --> 00:39:08.980 to stop these traditions. And so they're interested in them, so they're 635 00:39:08.980 --> 00:39:12.540 researching them. And so when I'm doing videos where I'm critiquing something 636 00:39:12.540 --> 00:39:16.220 that's in the Catholic Church or I'm talking about the differences, I think there's just 637 00:39:16.220 --> 00:39:19.580 a big appetite for that right now because there's a lot of young people 638 00:39:19.900 --> 00:39:23.660 identity searching their faith. So it's been really fascinating. I 639 00:39:23.660 --> 00:39:26.660 had one that got, like, to 2,000 views in a couple days, and I was 640 00:39:26.660 --> 00:39:30.470 like, I didn't think that video was good, but I guess people like that. 641 00:39:30.710 --> 00:39:34.310 So that's how sermons are too. I think a sermon's bad, and then 642 00:39:34.310 --> 00:39:38.070 everybody's like, oh, that one really touched me. And then I'm like, I. I'll. Night 643 00:39:38.070 --> 00:39:40.670 before, I'll be like, oh, this is a. This is a banger sermon I've got 644 00:39:40.670 --> 00:39:44.030 going here. And nobody says anything to me. Nobody ever says it's bad, but nobody 645 00:39:44.030 --> 00:39:47.510 says it's good either. So it's like, you know, you just kind of learn to. 646 00:39:47.510 --> 00:39:50.390 To understand that the Holy Spirit's doing a lot more than you think 647 00:39:51.830 --> 00:39:54.900 in that interaction. 100% cool. 648 00:39:56.020 --> 00:39:59.380 Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I feel validated in that 649 00:39:59.380 --> 00:40:02.940 perspective as well. Every time I think, whoo. 650 00:40:02.940 --> 00:40:06.460 Probably one of the best ever. And people are like, that was nice. That was 651 00:40:06.460 --> 00:40:08.580 nice. Thank you, Ryan. Thanks. Good job today. 652 00:40:10.180 --> 00:40:13.060 Now there are times when you're like, oh, I feel like I just kind of 653 00:40:13.060 --> 00:40:16.260 verbally vomited for 20 minutes. People are like, I just needed to hear that so 654 00:40:16.260 --> 00:40:19.580 much this week. Or, you know, my other favorite. Would you mind telling me what 655 00:40:19.580 --> 00:40:23.140 you heard? Yeah, yeah. My other personal favorite. You know, my son 656 00:40:23.300 --> 00:40:26.160 needs to hear that sermon or my. My daughter needs to hear that. I'm like, 657 00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:30.200 but you do too. You know, like, we all need to hear it, 658 00:40:30.200 --> 00:40:33.960 including the person preaching it. So. Yeah. Well, Matt, 659 00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:36.600 thanks so much for spending this time with us. Where are people going to find 660 00:40:36.600 --> 00:40:40.440 you on YouTube? The Connectionalist. So it's kind of spelled 661 00:40:40.440 --> 00:40:43.840 weird. It's like Wesley, you think of connectionalism as 662 00:40:43.840 --> 00:40:46.800 Methodist. Right. So it's like C, O, N, N E X, 663 00:40:47.520 --> 00:40:51.360 I O, N, A L, L, 664 00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:55.160 I, S, T. Yeah, the connectionalist. If, if. If 665 00:40:55.160 --> 00:40:58.960 you search anything close to that on YouTube, I. 666 00:40:58.960 --> 00:41:02.800 I've got enough videos up now. It generally comes up now. So that's the 667 00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:06.240 best place. Make sure you like and subscribe. That's what I always tell people. That's 668 00:41:06.240 --> 00:41:09.680 the best way. If you want to. If you want to support methodism on 669 00:41:09.680 --> 00:41:13.480 YouTube, which you should, because that's where Gen Z is 670 00:41:13.480 --> 00:41:16.960 getting introduced to denominations and their faith. That's where it's happening. If you want to 671 00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:20.480 support that as a Methodist, make sure you come, like, and subscribe. That's my plug 672 00:41:21.040 --> 00:41:23.640 and I'd love to have you. Anybody on the channel who wants to come and 673 00:41:23.640 --> 00:41:26.350 comment and be a part of the community. So stuff. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. For 674 00:41:26.350 --> 00:41:30.070 our Methodist friends listening. Like we, we would really love to kind of overturn 675 00:41:30.070 --> 00:41:33.790 the algorithm there. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Support the good stuff. That's 676 00:41:33.790 --> 00:41:37.270 right. That's right. That brings us to the end of this 677 00:41:37.270 --> 00:41:40.949 episode. If you'd like to learn more or take a deeper dive into 678 00:41:40.949 --> 00:41:44.750 any of the topics that we've talked about, be sure to Visit our 679 00:41:44.750 --> 00:41:48.550 website, umc.org compass there 680 00:41:48.550 --> 00:41:52.110 you'll find episode notes and of course along with lot more episodes to explore, so 681 00:41:52.110 --> 00:41:55.950 don't miss out. In fact, a couple cool follow ups for this episode 682 00:41:55.950 --> 00:41:59.750 would be number 149, humor, theology and 683 00:41:59.750 --> 00:42:03.550 Deep Questions with Aaron Hicks Moon. Or episode 684 00:42:03.550 --> 00:42:06.869 number 141, community comedy and Church 685 00:42:06.869 --> 00:42:10.310 Renovation, which explores several more stories of the church 686 00:42:10.310 --> 00:42:14.030 creatively meeting the world. We want to give a big thank you to 687 00:42:14.030 --> 00:42:17.640 the team at United Methodist Communications for making the Compass 688 00:42:17.640 --> 00:42:21.280 podcast possible. And if you haven't already again, 689 00:42:21.680 --> 00:42:25.440 please take a moment to subscribe, rate and review the 690 00:42:25.440 --> 00:42:29.280 podcast wherever you're listening or watching. It really 691 00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:32.960 helps other folks find us and it lets us know what you're enjoying 692 00:42:33.040 --> 00:42:36.480 or what you'd like to hear more of in the future on 693 00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:39.920 Compass. Thanks so much for joining us today. We 694 00:42:40.080 --> 00:42:43.330 hope you'll tune in next time time as we keep finding 695 00:42:43.330 --> 00:42:47.130 spirituality in the everyday peace.