Welcome to Compass. Finding Spirituality in the Everyday. I'm your host,
Ryan Dunn. This podcast often provides a
platform for voices and ideas around social
justice. This would include topics like housing, income
equality, LGBTQ advocacy,
ending racism, and more. We're in a period
where it feels like in our context in the United States,
we're losing progress on several of those issues. For
me, that introduces a bit of a theological dilemma because I hold
to the idea that, as MLK put it, the arc of justice
is always advancing. And maybe it is
overall. But it's disheartening when the few steps
of progress which have really been witnessed over the last several years
are met with reactive steps backwards. When
LGBTQ voices are marginalized through public
policy, when national priorities favor the
rich over the unhoused, when racist rhetoric
motivates legislation to define who is acceptable
and who is not, and especially then, when those who are labeled as
outsiders are moved into concentration camps.
My friend, Reverend Ingrid McIntyre is heavily
engaged in activism and advocacy around these issues
in Nashville, Tennessee. It's emotional work, and while
I know Ingrid to be a high energy person, I wondered how these
steps backwards may be affecting her and
advocates like her and also what provides fuel for
the continued work with all these confrontations and public
actions. So I went over to our little church in Nashville
and talked with Ingrid about her journey into activism and
how being an activist and a pastor correlate and what's
fueling her hope. Whether you're curious about grassroots
organizing, passionate about social justice, or
seeking some inspiration for your own spiritual journey,
this episode takes a look at what it means to live out faith in
real, tangible ways. So let's get into it
here on Compass. All right,
Ingrid, we've known each other a while, but in the make believe world of
us just meeting, we're at a party and having the normal kind of
chit chat conversation of like, oh, what do you do?
How do you describe what you do.
At those places? It makes me a little nervous to say what I do. Sometimes
it freaks people out maybe a little bit. But
I would say that I'm a pastor in the United Methodist Church
and that I'm an organizer in our community
around issues that impact the community
and impact individuals mostly adversely. Right.
So issues of justice where I feel like
maybe justice is lacking. Yeah. How do you see those two roles
overlapping? I mean, it's a
natural fit as far as I'm concerned. I think
that the values of Jesus and the values that Jesus
lived are very much in line with
what it looks like to have A just community. And
so I feel like living those
values out in real time and
doing my best to embody the life of Jesus.
The embodiment piece is really important to me more than the
word. So, yeah, I think it's a pretty good
fit. I mean, I might say that Jesus was a
pastor and a community organizer. Maybe not a pastor in the United
Methodist Church, but Jes. You know, I think the
church. Right, Jes. Yeah, but.
But yeah. So I think that those two things go hand in
hand pretty well. Yeah. What does a. A week look like for
you then? Like, how do you spend your time walking
between those two roles?
It's a lot. You know, this week has several folks in our
congregation who are in the hospital and so
visiting hospitals. But also
Elon Musk has just said he's going to make
a land grab here in Tennessee, particularly here in
Nashville, specifically in a black and brown
neighborhood that has historically been underserved.
And so it was announced and
passed in less than three days. And
that doesn't feel like transparency. Right. So showing up in public
spaces and saying, where the people.
Where are the people's voices in this? Right. It was. Didn't have
anything to do with people. Had to do with rich white men stealing land again.
Again. Right. So being present in that space,
as a person of faith, it's important to me that,
that folks know that people of faith are not
happy with some of the things that are going on in our. In our
community these days. So when you say being present in that space,
what does that mean? So I went to Cordell hall this morning, which is
our state office building. It's where. It's next door to
the Capitol. Okay. It's where all the legislators
offices are and it's where the committee,
like the House committee rooms and the Senate committee rooms are. So this was
a meeting that was held in House
hearing room three this morning. So I
showed up holding a sign. My sign
said rich white men stealing land again.
And just wanted to show up in community so that
it's not just rich, powerful or
elected people that are being heard, but to make sure that the
community is being heard. And to witness. Right. Even just to
be a witness, to say, I'm watching these
four rich white men men make this decision this
morning on behalf of the people of Tennessee. When
Tennessee did not get to weigh in, not even most
of the representatives in the state of Tennessee got to weigh in. Right.
A lot of them found out about this at the same time that the general
public did. So to me, that Feels a little sneaky.
And, you know, we can't even get
the state to give us free land for affordable housing
when there are thousands of people without housing yet they will give it
away to literally the richest man in the United States
to do something that's not going to help the people of Nashville. Right.
It'll help the. It'll help maybe
capitalism, maybe with a tunnel from
the airport straight into downtown. But, you know, that's not
going to help individuals who live in Nashville, people who
are going to have to pay for the upkeep of
this, who pay for the ambulances and the fire trucks
that go down there when Teslas explode or when people get stuck
or when there's a flood, you know, like we had in
2010, and it floods. Like what? You know, all these things
are things that we don't know anything about. So just holding
folks accountable, whatever the situation is, that just happened to be what it was
this morning. Okay. What led you towards doing
this kind of work? Were you a. A pastor who was
then suddenly. Well, not suddenly, but felt
a call into that work, or was it the other way around, like you were
doing the activism kind of work? And like, I think there's something
speaking to my soul. Yeah. Well, I'm a pk, right?
So that's part of it. That's just part of my context. Yeah. That's a preacher's
kid. Yeah. Anybody or theological,
as some people like to say. I'm not that. I don't think I'm there. I
think I'm just a pk. But
I've known for a long time that my work is along the
margins. It's just where I have felt called for a very long time.
I mean, probably since before, but at least since eighth grade. That's been very
clear to me. And so oftentimes,
can we. What happened in eighth grade?
Was there an aha moment? And you're like, oh, no. I was
staying with my cousin who I adore
and didn't want to go home. It was a summer vacation, and
I didn't want to leave. We didn't want to leave each other. And she was
leaving to go to Appalachia Service Project the next day, and
I couldn't go. And I was too young, like a year too
young maybe to go. And so thank
goodness I know the executive director of Appalachia Service Project yet.
Be mad, Melissa. But I lied on my form and said that I was a
year older than I was so that I could go with my cousin to
Appalachia and Her church was in Indiana, and I lived in
Tennessee, but we were serving in Tennessee. So La Follette, Tennessee,
was the first place that I served with the Appalachian Service
Project and knew in that moment that people weren't being
treated fairly. Right. People weren't
receiving the. Just end of the stick, if
you would. And it bothered me a lot.
I knew that this was the area that my family came out of,
Appalachia. Right. And I knew that,
you know, my dad's grandparents didn't have running water and.
Or a restroom in their house. Right. And so being in and
among folks who were
perpetually left out of an economic
equation felt like a personal
assault. And so just kept
sort of down that road and realized that, oh, there are plenty of more
people who are being treated even worse. Right.
Who things are not just for. Who
have, you know, people whose ancestors were
enslaved, people whose ancestors land was stolen
from, people who have been stolen,
you know, from. From homelands and things like that.
So just kept learning more and more about our history and, like, what
humans can do. That. That doesn't
reflect love. Right. To me, but that reflects
greed. And so being a voice in the midst
of that has been important to me for a long time.
And so I guess the activism probably came
first in terms of thinking this is what I want to do. But
certainly I've had a bedrock of faith since, you
know, 1976.
So as you were entering your
adult life, were there.
Were you looking for jobs in the activism space? Were you
looking for jobs in the clerical space? Out of that? Yeah,
no, neither. I
honestly don't know. I think I went to college really not
knowing. Yeah, sure. You know, I was. For once in
my life, I think I was just, like, doing the thing. You'Re supposed to do.
Right. Which is not. This will give me the opportunities to do whatever.
That's not my typical thing is to just do, you know, go along to get
along. But I think maybe I was at that point go, you know,
going to college even. I mean, I majored in communications and
religion, but I didn't know really what that meant for
me. And so I did start
working in the church some, but continued to
be called to that intersection of faith and
politics, which is why I went to Wesley Seminary right
here in Nashville. But Wesley really called to me
because of where it is that it's in D.C. in the heart.
Yeah. Wesley's in the heart of D.C. and so to be able to be
in that space and soak up what that environment was giving,
you know, taught me a Lot. And I
had to. I watched people be brave a lot in that space. I
haven't always been super brave in that space, and I don't know, I guess I'm
brave in that space now, but
still fearful. Right? It doesn't. I don't think that bravery takes
your fear away necessarily. Okay. It just
takes your. I'm just
unwilling to be silent or
invisible while
people with power just run over
folks. So I just can't. I would rather
be scared and standing up
than,
I guess, comfortable and quiet.
That's probably one thing that no one would ever describe me
as, comfortable and quiet.
So as you began to
discern a sense of calling, were there certain events that really kind
of moved you into a particular direction?
Yeah, I still think that, like, you know, again, housing
was what, you know, certainly Appalachia service project
works on housing. Some
dear, dear family friends had been a part of, like, homeless
ministries for their whole lives, working in Catholic Worker houses,
which I learned a lot from as well. And that was really moving
to me. The
One thing in D.C. you know, when we were there or
when I was there is when the
genocide in the Sudan was happening. I mean, not that
things are still not great there. I mean, things are still not great there, but
that was in the beginning. Right. And so
it just helped me see sort of how people were
responding in general. It was the first time, I think, I was, like, really paying
attention to how people responded to a major
injustice and organizing. Right.
Like actually organizing. Not just saying, oh, man, that's terrible,
but doing something about it. And it's. It
really revs me up, I think. Right. Oh, like, you can do something about
this. You can't. You don't just, like, read the news and
complain. You can show up at the. You can
start talking to people. You can,
you know, get your other friends to show up with you. This is
powerful. Right. Our voices matter.
So learning that. And then after I moved back to Nashville in 2010 and the
flood happened, and it was, you know, a
place, tent city that was beloved, that had
flooded. There was not an option to not do something or, you
know, it was not an option to be quiet and comfortable at that moment. Right.
People who, you know and loved have lost everything that they've had. They
had. So, yeah,
now's the time. Let's get with it. Right? So that really started a
big push for activism, I think, in my life,
but activism backed up by faith, saying, like, people
deserve more than this. This, like, we were created to be whole and
thriving people, not people have to struggle to find a meal.
Not people have to struggle to get a good night's sleep so that our mental
health is intact. Right. People have to struggle for
their health care or. Or to be
in relationship in a healthy way with each
other. So that turned the boat, as
we might say, for me, in a big way, where
I think I just, like, lost it. I, you know,
I lost my willingness for any kind of comfort
and quietness, I think, in that space.
And. Yeah. So here we are 15 years
later, and it's just gone downhill or
coasting positive down. And it's funny that
you bring up the. The Sudan and the Darfur was what we were
talking about at the time. I was working in a local church
at that point, and I brought it up with the youth group, and
I had some pushback against that because it felt a little
bit political for some people. Is that
something that you deal with and. Yeah. And how does
that kind of political,
Political speak affect your
congregational relationship? Yeah, you
know, I try to be nonpartisan most of the time,
because to me, what matters is the. Is the
values that we're lifting up. Right. It's these values that I think
are. Are most people of faith's values. Right? It's
not just a Christian value. It's not, you know, just a Jewish value.
It's not just a Muslim value. Like, we all
hold these values as people of faith for the most
part. Right. Saying that
justice shall roll down. Right. Um, we should
love our neighbors. We take care of the orphan
and the widow. All of these things that we all agree
with pretty much from all different faith perspectives
and from a humanitarian perspective. Right. And so to
watch. To watch folks
not live with dignity and humanity because of decision
makers, sure,
it's political. But, you know, Jesus was political
like we're humans, you know, political is
basically for the people of the people with the people. Right?
And so this is about people, like,
everything we do is political, right? Almost every single
thing we do is political. So I think when people say
don't be political, they probably mean don't be partisan,
because we have to talk about politics to be able to do
anything. I mean, you know, the city
takes how much money from our church
funds because of just stormwater runoff? I think we pay
twelve hundred dollars a quarter now. Right. And our
church, that hardly has that just because of our parking lot
and stormwater runoff, that's political. I called
a person who's in politics to say, can we not have a discount for that?
Right. We're a mission church with
Housing. I think it's important to note that. We have housing on
housing in our front yard. And so, you know,
all the things we do are pretty much, do you
want red or purple carpet? Like it's going to be a decision that
we have to make. You know, it's of the people we got. It's political.
Who's going to win that argument in the church? Is it the person who's paying
for the carpet or is it the rest of the folks? Right. Like
it. We can't get away from being political. So I think,
and I have learned, and I'll say this for any listeners
out there who are interested, that I
have probably learned, one of the learnings would be. Yeah. Not to be
partisan
because almost every politician that you're going to back
is going to fail you. Right.
We all know that people change and power
does things to people. Right. So even your
bestie who runs for mayor or city council
is not. Every decision they make is not going to be what you meant necessarily
want them to make. Right. And so standing on values
is a much sure bet. Right.
Than standing for specific people or for specific
parties. There's only one person I think
that I've endorsed that I'm like still willing and happy
to endorse and will to the grave, probably. Right. But
one person out of how many. Right.
Yeah. They fail us. Politicians fail us. They're human.
But values don't necessarily fail us. So like sticking with
those feels like a good idea. Idea. You mentioned the
housing at the church. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Like we're,
we're recording this at the church here in Nashville.
Like what's outside here? Yeah. So we sit
on a six acre plot in southeast
Nashville. Really just like right
on 440, so pretty close to
downtown. And like all the other amazing things, like, we're in a great
location, I think, and in our front yard. Yard
we have 12 homes that we
built. They're micro
homes. Two of them hold two people and the
other 10 hold one person each. And it's a
medical respite for people experiencing
homelessness. My first appointment in the church was
to the streets. It was not to a church or to a church building.
And honestly, we've made it work. But church buildings
are not my favorite. Right. I would rather be spending time
outside and in the streets and in the community than
in a church building. So it feels like a lot to
take care of sometimes. But we have
utilized this space so that we have more people coming through
during the week, more Community members coming through the week that would normally never step
foot in a church. Right. But they are utilizing our space
because we have shared values. Values. And they are working in the
community for those shared values. Right. So they may not show up on a Sunday
morning at church, but they trust me,
which is an honor. Right. And they know that they can come here and
find safe space where they can organize,
where they can talk about what the next step is for a
campaign around helping
protect folks in whatever ways they need to be protected
or to help serve folks, feed folks who
maybe they're going with to court this week. Right.
So using this space as a place to organize
for our values, which again,
is ecumenical, is interfaith,
is. It crosses so many, so
many intersections that we can all relate to.
I think, like folks that are not in the
1%.
Everybody kind of has their passion projects or
in using terms around value, like the. The things that
they tend to focus on a little bit more. And it sounds like
housing is. Is one of those push buttons topics for
you. Giving voice to marginalized communities is another one.
In, in our own state or in our own context,
it can feel like we're moving away from, like,
full justice for this. You know, for example, like around
Tennessee, our reaction
to homeless people is to, you know, make it illegal to be
homeless, that you can be ticketed for being on the sidewalk kind of deal or.
Or for camping out in a certain space. So as
it feels like we're. We're kind of walking back on issues of justice like that,
and you're so enmeshed in this work of. Of being
proactive in that space. Like, are there stories that.
That kind of give you hope to keep going? Sure.
I mean, it feels. I mean, it's a heavy time right now.
Right. Let's. Let's not confuse that. It is a very
heavy time. And I would be silly to say that I don't
feel heavy right now. Right.
Again, this. Just this morning at the, you know, going to the Capitol for the
first time since session, and everybody's like, oh, Pastor Ingrid,
you know, like all the. All the security, like, whatever.
People who are used to people are. Genuinely happy to see. Well, and they're like,
how's it going? You know, how's your summer? And it's like, terrible.
It's. It feels terrible. You know, we've had
30 days of the hottest weather in Nashville in how long?
Right. Heat advisories every day, heat index of
114 yesterday. So, like, you're stuck
inside and it feels like things are Falling apart
everywhere. You know, you ask about my issues
like certainly housing, certainly people's voices being heard,
white Christian nationalism, you know, down with it. I mean, I'm not
down with, I'm saying get rid of, be down. Let's, let's get rid of
it. You know, the immigration stuff
that's coming up, all of
these things certainly.
But the hope, I guess it is
so heavy and yet I want to say people are
amazing, right? There's so many
more people that have
power that maybe don't realize it, right.
Or it's a different kind of power than they're used to. So they're not, they
haven't maybe activated it yet. But the people
who are learning to activate their voices and who are learning,
who are starting to show up just because they can't think about
doing anything else right now anymore, right? They're tired
of it. They're tired of decisions being made
for them, not by them, right? And so I
think it is so hopeful, it is so hopeful to me
when I see a woman from,
from Robertson County. I mean this meeting this morning was at 8
o'. Clock. I'm sure she had to leave at 6 this morning. She works
as a, in a, she works in a
warehouse in Robertson County. She works the night shift. She came
in after her night shift to be present and to speak at this thing this
morning. And I just think, yes, this is it,
right? This is people standing up and saying, these are my
values. I'm. I don't have to be a
pastor, I don't have to be a rabbi or
an imam or you know, somebody in
special power, District superintendent. No, I can just be
Ingrid McIntyre and go and speak. I can just be Joanna
and go and speak. I can just be, you know, Ms. Jane and go and
speak. 80 year old women are getting thrown out of
committees right now because they are standing up for their
values. And that is hope, right?
That is, you know, maybe
Jesus saying, take this cup from me, but here I am,
I'm going to stand up, I'm going to keep going,
right? And to me it's beautiful.
Like, I think that is more
transformative to a community than
any redlining or you know,
zoning hearings or we're going to put this
tunnel right through your neighborhood without asking any of that, right? Personal
transformation where one by one folks are standing up and
saying, nah, I don't, this isn't okay with me
anymore. That is helpful.
I'll preach. One
final question. In thinking about your
spiritual journey, were there certain books, authors,
voices, even preachers that kind of had
an impact on your.
On your theological mindset. Yeah, sure. I mean,
liberation theology all the way for me. Right.
Dr. Beverly Mitchell, who just retired from Wesley
Theological Seminary, I think she changed my life. Right.
I think I just, I got to tell her that
at her retirement, which was nice.
She just put things in front of my face
that I needed to see and asked hard
questions and was willing to have hard conversations about,
you know, about capitalism, about the way our country works, about where
our clothing comes from and who's making it and how much they're getting
paid or what their lives look like. Right.
Nothing is what it is on the surface. Like, we have to always dig
deeper to see what is that?
What does justice look like around almost every situation? Right.
What are, what are people's experiences?
I mean, ultimately is the Earth, are living things,
humans obviously included? Are we thriving? Is
the environment thriving? It's not. Well, why not? Well,
let's get to it. Right? Let's get to it. So if a human's
not thriving, why not? Let's fix this. Fix the system. It's not an
in one individual bad decision that has, like,
made things fall apart. It's systems that are not made to work for
certain people. And until you
organize large groups of people to see those
broken systems and then to help fix and change them,
we're not going to get anywhere. Well, so if you wanted to put it an
exclamation point on that, then, like, what would that be? Like, get
active. Get activate. Right there. There
are people in every community,
not just Nashville. Right. There are people in Dixon. There are people
in Robertson County. There are people in between here
in Memphis. Right there. I mean,
our rural communities have got
to, like, we've got to figure it out with our rural communities.
We've got to figure out how to build relationships
because that's where
some folks who are maybe not
upholding the values that we believe in. And I can say that
as a United Methodist, we do not believe in these
values. We do not.
And so how can we
further and further organize ourselves to say
to our. The people who are supposed to be
speaking for us, who? Some of our
United Methodists.
Let me say that again, some of who are United Methodists.
How are we holding them accountable?
Activate your voice. You got it.
That's it for this episode of Compass, Finding Spirituality in the
Everyday. We're so grateful that you've joined us for this meaningful
conversation exploring faith, justice, and the
ways in which each of us can activate our voices
for good. You know, I had to leave this interview a
little bit early because I got a phone call that my wife had been bitten
by a dog. She was on her way to the emergency room. Turned out
she's. She's just fine. Just kind of a painful experience.
But as I was there in the waiting room in the er,
a young man brought in an older woman. Not sure what her
issues were, but she was definitely confused. Well, it turns out this young man had
just met her and saw that she needed help, brought her there
to the er. As they were waiting for the doctors to call her back,
he started sharing his life with her. He was showing her pictures
of his children and talking about his
relationship status. It was actually really, really heartwarming.
As she was called back, it seemed a logical
opportunity for the young man to maybe make his exit. He turned his good
deeds right. However, he was concerned that she was
confused, that she just needed somebody to be with her during that time.
And so he stayed and went back with her. I'm not sure how the situation
worked out, but to me, in witnessing that, it was just this
exclamation point on Ingrid's idea that there
are good people and this is where the hope is found that there are
still good people who are willing to come alongside the their neighbor
like that, even knowing so little about him having met them
just a few minutes ago. So to that young man, hey, you're my
hero. If you're looking for more from today's
episode, head over to our website@umc.org
Compass you'll find detailed episode notes, resources,
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