What makes issues like immigration, equity,
inclusion and societal violence spiritual matters
and not just political ones? We're talking with Bishop
Julius Trimble about this and much more on compass.
Finding Spirituality in the Everyday.
And welcome back to compass. I'm Ryan Dunn. I got to sit down
with Bishop Julius Trimble, who is the General Secretary of
of the United Methodist Church's General Board of Church and
Society. And we explored what it means to live out
faith in pursuit of justice, compassion and
beloved community. Bishop Trimble shares his journey
from growing up on Chicago south side to advocating for social
causes on Capitol Hill while reflecting on the roots
of social justice work in our Methodist tradition
and within his own life along the way. In this conversation
you're going to hear about the United Methodist Church's commitment to issues
like health care, racial equity and creation care,
as well as how faith communities can move beyond what Bishop
Trimble calls water based theology and cheap
grace to actually embody real love and action.
The conversation touches on practical ways to put
spirituality into daily practice. We touch on the importance of
listening on self care and having bold conversations
that really lead to positive change. Whether you're steeped in their
Methodist tradition or if you're just curious about the connection between
faith and public life, I think this episode invites you
to consider how loving boldly and serving joyfully
can lead to a more just and compassionate
world. So let's jump into that conversation with Bishop
Julius Trimble and here on compass.
Bishop Trimble, thank you so much for taking the time this morning. I hope
it's going well with your soul today. Thank you, Ryan. It is
well with my soul. The sun is shining. It's a chilly day in
Washington, D.C. but God is still
good, even in. Washington, D.C.
i want to start with an umbrella question because I'm not sure that a lot
of our listeners are going to be overly familiar with the work of
the United Methodist Church's General Board of Church and
Society. Can you give us
maybe a little bit more than an elaborate than an elevator
description, but a synopsis of what the work of the General
Board of Church and Society is? Certainly, Ryan. The
General Board of Church and Society is the social justice and
public witness agency of the United Methodist
Church, the GBCs, as we say be abbreviated, the General
Board of Church and Society. We attempt to equip people of
faith to live out the Church's social principles
as well as to engage in faithful advocacy for peace,
for justice, for liberation. We've been mandated by
the United Methodist Church General Conference and by the
United Methodist Church's Constitution to make plain
our commitment to treat all people of sacred worth,
to embrace inclusiveness and racial justice.
And we do this, Ryan, as part of the Church
universal one body of Christ. We acknowledge that
not only are all persons of sacred worth, but
that we should be about the business of making the world
more just, more fair, more equitable,
particularly for the communities where we find United Methodist churches.
The United Methodist Church building is located
in Washington D.C. on Capitol Hill. In
fact, it's the only non governmental building on
Capitol Hill, right across the street from the Supreme Court and
facing the U.S. capitol building. And it has been
here actually longer than the Supreme Court. The building is over 100 years
old. So United Methodists have been committed and the
predecessor bodies of United Methodists to social
justice. And we trace that all the way back to John Wesley, who had a
commitment to being in ministry with the poor and, and
objecting slavery. What led you to do
this work? Well, Ryan, I had a, I had
an impactful experience in 1985. I was
a still a young pastor serving my first full
time appointed church out of seminary. And I
was invited to a United Methodist seminar
program sponsored by the General Board of Church and Society.
We met in New York City at the United Nations
Church Building, which is across the street
from the United nations building that's
owned by the former United Methodist Women, now United Women in Faith.
But we have General Board of Churches Society offices in that building as
well. I was invited to a seminar, an
educational program for, for
pastors and laypersons as well. And the focus at
that time in 1985 was understanding apartheid
in South Africa. And then I left there
with the inspiration. I remember telling my wife this. I said
I wasn't aware that the United Methodist Church was engaged
not only in supporting missionaries, but also
supporting the mission of making the world a better place in the area
of peace and justice in the way in which we were doing so I left
a full fledged fan and supporter of the work of church
and society. Okay, all right. And
can you explain a little bit about why this, this work is so.
I don't know if appealing is the right word, but maybe why you feel driven
or called into a position like this? Well, I always, I
think early on in my seminary training, I
grew up in the City of Chicago neighborhood on the south side
of Chicago. And my parents, who were both Methodists
before they got married, they wanted to go to the closest
Methodist church you could walk to with six children. So I'm
walking with six children. So we went to,
at that time was A Methodist Episcopal church. And the church
pretty much spent my childhood and high school years, and when
I left and went off to college, was very active
in the area of social justice. In fact, as
a preteen and
a teen, when I, in my teen years, actually I was 13 years old,
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Spoke at our local congregation in
Chicago. And I was inspired then by realizing,
you mean the church is not just about getting, getting ready
to go to heaven, you know, trying to live a spiritual life.
It's also about making our communities better, more, just more
equitable. And so I was in, I was influenced very much by
the church I was in. So throughout my ministry as a
pastor and even before becoming a pastor, as a layperson and then a
pastor, I've always been
committed to not only that, what I consider the spiritual
side of our being, but also the
social side of our being, of how do we build better,
more healthy Orion communities that we can
actually all flourish in. And so that, that really,
that really has attracted me to the work of the, of church
and society. Later in ministry. I was
invited when I became a district superintendent,
to become a board member on the general board of Church and Society.
And so I served on the board of Church and Society for eight years
and had opportunity to see close up
the work that was being done to
advocate for peace and justice, not only in the United
States, but really across the globe. It's clear
from your story there that
the ministry of social justice has been a part of your,
I guess, ministerial journey or even spiritual journey. I'm curious,
was the term social justice used
as, as you were growing up, or was it so intrinsic in kind of your
practice of faith that like this just was the
spiritual journey? Well, you know, that's interesting, it. The word social
justice. I don't recall that. It seems like a term that I've
embraced even post
seminary, but I think the term really
was. Even now, even though it's come back around,
the term really was around beloved community. I remember my
pastor and our church really focusing on what does an inclusive community
look like? So even early on,
our congregation embraced persons
who were part of the gay community at that time, considered the gay
community, and also persons, persons who had,
who, who had been marginalized from their families because
maybe addictions or, or because of, you
know, dealing with poverty.
So I found that the notion of beloved community was something I was
introduced to before I even remember the term social
justice being introduced. And so I
think, I think they're, they're, they're obviously connected, but
that was my early entree into the work of social justice
and not seeing. I had a pastor who was very adamant about
not disconnecting the two of the
spiritual life and also
the life of social witness.
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. I was asking that
question about that terminology of social justice. Because
you've released a letter recently. You seem to be
in a practice of. Of sending out some letters from time to time. Pastoral
letters for the. The body of believers. In one of your most
recent ones, you noted that if a
church doesn't want you to speak about issues that
may lie under the. The overarching banner of social
justice. So these would be issues like immigration or
equity and inclusion or speaking about societal violence, then.
Then maybe they shouldn't invite you to.
So for someone who is a little bit unfamiliar with some of these
social teachings, maybe didn't have the background where it was so
intrinsic to their faith journey. Can you talk a little bit
or explain a little bit about why these issues matter
to a spiritual life and not just a
political life? Yeah. Yes. I think
the spiritual life is really rooted into honoring the
stories of all of our stories. And so most of us
who are longtime church folks, we've been embedded in the
biblical story or biblical stories, but our story should
also be able to be wed and be honored
alongside of the biblical stories. And I think
that a lot of most people want to be heard. They want to be
loved, they want to be respected. Even before they
want to know what your religious or
theological perspective is, I think people really would just want to know,
do they matter? It's been said that people want to know
that you care before they care how much you know. And,
you know, I believe that, you know, the Bible is really
helpful in that sense. You know, the book of James, second
chapter, talks about, you know, faith without works is dead.
I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but James 2 says, you know, when someone
is hungry or naked, you cannot help them by telling
them, go, go, and the peace of the Lord be with you
if someone is hungry or naked or if someone is depressed. Ryan, if someone
is dealing with depression or the sense of the lack of
belonging, I don't think it does them well for us to say.
To quote scriptures and just say, go in peace.
The Lord peace of the Lord be with you. They want to know that we
care. And I think that's part of when I say. When
I say, don't invite me to preach. I'm purposely being
provocative in the sense that sometimes people
want you to preach. But not to mention the fact that people are actually
hurting. I'll just be a little bit vulnerable here and say
I had family members who were impacted when the government was shut
down because they weren't getting paid. Yeah. So when people aren't getting
paid, they can't pay their bills, they can't buy their groceries.
And so should I be afraid to address that issue,
that this is an issue of injustice from the pulpit
when I know that people in the congregations are impacted by that?
So I was intentionally being
provocative and don't invite me to preach. I. I am. Because
the Bible says you can't say that you love God whom you have
not seen, and yet you refuse to love your neighbors whom you see
every day. And I think that's a pivotal teaching
when Jesus says, you know, let's not get this confused.
Maybe you don't go to church. Maybe you. Maybe you don't have a personal
relationship with Christ. But there's two commandments you can
remember. Love God, love your neighbor. And
I think even people who aren't part of the United Methodist Church or any
church, they can resonate with that. They can say, I believe there
is a God and I know I have neighbors.
So how do we serve as a bridge to connect people
with that, the love of God and the love of our
neighbors in the sense that there is an opportunity for
belonging when the church is. When the church embraces, in fact. So
when I say social justice, I don't divorce it from love or
love. In fact, many have said. Many have
said that justice is really love spoken
out loud in the public square. So people say, well, you
just. No, I'm not being political at all.
I'm not endorsing that pastors should
work on drafting political sermons. I'm saying that we
have to remember that we're preaching to people who have real problems,
who are living in a real society. That often is
expressed and most recently has been expressed as being somewhat
oppressive to certain parts of the population.
So it would be hard to speak to a population
that's dealing with the reality of ICE raids and,
and families being detained and deported and
just talk about getting to heaven
when you might be concerned about whether your father or
your mother is going to be separated from your family. So
I'm really encouraging, encouraging our churches
to embrace what we, as a denomination have said are important.
We attempt to bring the vision of life by educating, advocating,
connecting United Methodists to upholding
living faith and seeking
justice. And we do that by talking about all
kinds of Things, creation, care, food
security, reduction of gun violence,
welcoming our neighbors, building
bridges to
collaboration, global cooperation
on addressing problems. So I think Jesus,
I say this in the article. Jesus was the Jesus who
was unambiguous about rejecting violence, loving your neighbors
and enemies and doing good, and embracing the work of
peacemaking. So that's the
gospel that we embrace. The Jesus
who promoted mending the broken relationships
and said that the two greatest commandments are not to be separate, separated or
segregated. That is the love of God with all your heart and
love your neighbor as yourself. People want to hear that message,
right? That. You mean I. I have to
even love myself? A lot of. A lot
of that missing today. Yeah. Oh, that's good.
I want to put a little context around this because we're recording this in
mid November 2025. The. We've gone through
a government shutdown in the United States in the process of
reopening. Are there a couple initiatives right
now that the General Board of Church and Society is working on
where you're particularly, I guess, focused on maybe inviting
members of the United Methodist Church to get involved? Yes, we believe
that at the local level and that United
Methodists should be involved, whether it's your local school board or
whatever the issues that are involved in your local communities
as well as the general
level as well. I mean, the national level. For example, we encourage United Methodists
to take action by contacting the congressional
representatives and saying that, you know, we want to make sure that people
have access to health care. So, you know,
there's concern about the support for the Affordable
Care act, support for that, and
we don't want to see people losing healthcare. We think, actually, we think
like in most industrialized nations, you know,
healthcare is considered a basic right. And so people have access to
healthcare without obstacles.
And so we encourage United Methodists
and others to reach out to congressional leaders
as well as work with their state legislations, make
sure that even the poorest of the poor have access to health
care. We have a campaign
that we've been working on for several years now called Grace over
Greed. We think that budgets are moral documents
so that whether it's your church budget or your family budget or
the government's budget, it says something about what we care about,
the trillions of dollars we have invested and made pledge
to, to support militarization, you
know, to support our military. And I think we should
support our military, but not to the
deficit of supporting the social safety net.
So we believe that United Methodists should stand
and advocate on behalf of immigrants in our communities
we believe that United Methodists should be take action
by continuing to join opportunities for faithful witness in the area of
peace and justice. And we invite people to go to the
UMC justice website umcjustice.org
and you'll see many of the both the
campaigns that we support, but also ways in which people can
advocate and take advantage of our toolkits for action.
We currently work with local congregations who have church and
society leadership in their annual conferences and
peace and justice advocates as well as now we have in
all of our communities annual conferences,
creation care representatives, persons who are
committed to supporting climate
justice and creation care. So we would encourage people
to embrace many of the things that are
available the social principles
either online or ordering that through
Cokesbury or the resource UMC
webpage. And we, we just believe that people should be
engaged both in their local communities but also in. In the broader way
of witnessing throughout the world.
You brought up social principles. Can you offer a little
definition on what that the entails? Yeah. The social
principles are the.
The. The witness of the United Methodist
Church our commitment to
the things to bring about justice and equity
in the world. They are adopted by the General Conference
every four years. They, they are printed in our book of
discipline or our, our
book, our polity document, if you will. And
they talk about the things that we care about over 30
different issues from food justice to global
cooperation to economic justice to
welcoming persons in our churches. No
exclusions, regardless of their status, their origin or their condition.
The social principles address the issues that we have
lifted up as being important to United
Methodists. And they trace their roots back to 1908 when the first
social creed was drafted. So we have
long since as a denomination been committed to
whether it was fair labor
practices or whether it was healthcare access,
whether it's a reduction of gun violence,
whether it was care. Stewardship of God's
creation is a big piece of
the social principles. But the social principles are something
while they are not considered law of the church, they are
considered the best practical,
theological and biblically sound
beliefs of United Methodists when it comes to issues of
social equity and social justice.
You mentioned that in your letter. You were being purposefully
provocative. Sometimes being a prophetic voice requires
provocation. Certainly you can look at the Old Testament prophets
and some of the actions undertaken there and see that, you know,
there's intentional provocation and
a line of attention going on there. There were a couple
phrases or words in your letter that I found a little provocative,
not in a negative sense, but just in that they piqued my interest and
I would love to hear a little bit more about them, one of them being
water based theology and the other being cheap
grace. What are some marks or characteristics of
water based theology and cheap grace? Well,
thank you, Ryan for asking that. I use that water based
theology kind of as a metaphor for
the various ways in which people attempt to dilute
the mandates of Jesus. Jesus says,
go and baptize, but teach everything that I have taught you.
So when we think about making disciples of Jesus Christ, mission statement of the
United Methodist Churches. Making disciples of Jesus Christ. But the
second part of that is for the transformation of the world. So
water based theology would be a theology that one might
paint in such a way that we focus on making
disciples but not transforming the world.
The water based theology, you know, you think about water based pain in your
house. Water based pain is, you know, easier to
clean and easier to dilute and pain over, as
opposed to an oil based, that's more permanent and
more substantive. And you know, Chief Grace Bonhoeffer and
others talked about, you know, this notion that God loves us without
any expectation on our behalf, we don't
earn our salvation.
Jesus did all of the hard work for us on the cross. But
cheap grace is, you know, is expecting to be blessed by God
but not to be a blessing to our neighbors. So that's
the best way I put it.
Grace is, I say grace. The Trimble definition of grace is that God
has a printing press and that God has
printed a name tag for everybody. Ryan and Julius have a name tag.
And on the back of that name tag is I love you from
God. That's God's grace. God loves us. There's nothing
we can do to earn that or do it about it. Cheap grace is
receiving that love and expecting that we have
no responsibility for anyone other than ourselves.
So, you know, cheap grace is understanding that,
you know, that, that we have food and that's good,
but, but we don't have responsibility for feeding those. Cheap grace is,
is, is, is picking out parts of the
scripture with, but skipping over Matthew 25, 3,
46, which said Jesus says to the least of these, you know,
when I was naked, did you clothe me? When I was in prison, did you
visit me when I was hungry? Did you bring me food? A cheap grace would
skip over that and say, well, I have, you
know, I, I've, I've, I've made it by this,
the, my bootstraps I raise. And when there are people that don't
have boots, that don't have shoes I believe that
God is calling us to live above, that
we're living beneath our blessings. When we
embrace what I call the water based theology, a theology
that says that everybody has to be a Christian
and that everybody has to embrace
what people are. Now what I call is kind of an oxymoron,
Christian nationalism, as opposed to
belonging, as opposed to grace,
as opposed to beloved community.
It struck me as you were talking there that grace, the full experience
of grace, involves loving others.
You noted earlier, however, that a full expression of loving others
also involves us loving ourselves. I'm
curious how that
represents in your life. So for sure
that the work of a minister is a work that involves
attention, of always feeling like there's more to do or there's more that
could be done. I would suspect that especially in
the realm of advocacy and, well, trying to
not just identify some of the places of harm in the world, but also
working to overcome those, there's always more that can be done.
So how do you in a sense, retreat from that? For refreshment? Are there
practices that, that you, Bishop Trimble, have in your own life that
offer you some, I guess, daily renewal? Daily
refreshment? Yeah. Yes, I it since I
became general secretary of General Board Church and Society and living in
D.C. you know, I'm right across from. I can walk
to museums that are free. And I happen to,
I happen to enjoy going to the theater, live
theater with my wife and movies just for
what I, what I call sometimes non redemptive entertainment.
So, so, and then one of the things, and I encourage just the people that
I work with, both, you know, who are in the church and not in the
church. You know, one thing, Jesus, when you read this, when you read the Bible,
you realize sometimes Jesus was unavailable. And, and I look at that,
I said Jesus sometimes said he went away someplace
to rest and to pray. And
one of the things I do, Ryan, I encourage this to every. Our children are
all grown now, but I encourage this to those who are raising families as well.
Sometimes you need to be unavailable. And it's not a
cruel thing, it's not selfish. But for
me, my wife practices this as well.
Sometimes we're not available for others. Even for my, I come from
my relatively big family and sometimes, you know,
just not being not available because I need to have
people frequently call it me time. And so it's not so much
doing other things. I used to, I, I used to go play
table tennis when I was in, when I
was an active bishop at one of our churches that had a table Tennis ministry.
I thought I was really good, Brian, until I actually went to the table, right?
I said, oh, these are people who really do.
And so. But I would go periodically, and people didn't know I was a bishop
or anything. I would just go in my little shorts and my
paddle and just enjoy myself.
And being unavailable, I think, is something. The other thing is
that I find too, I think, people, in terms of spiritual
disciplines, that we. Is what I call humble listening.
And some people do it better than I do.
But, you know, the opportunity to hear other people's stories and
not with no agenda, you know, and not trying to fix
them. You know, sometimes as pastors or Christians, we feel like we have to
fix people when sometimes what I think people would really want, people
just want to know, you know, does my story even matter?
And so I think those are some of the things I do. You know,
being unavailable, finding things that you love to do
and find things that are, you know, I want to call cost neutral, that, you
know, you don't have to pay big money for or pay
any money for, for that matter. And also learning
how to. I'm. I'm. I'm
categorized as an introvert. Some people don't think that, but, you know,
that's not uncommon for ministers who are to be introverts. And I do
have family members who, who are true, true, true extroverts.
So sometimes it's harder for introverts to really
find those things that really be still. But the Bible tells us for
Psalm 46:10, Be still and
feel the presence of God. And there are passages which
I like to embrace, and that is the times in which Jesus was
not available. So being unavailable
can be medicine for the soul.
I'd like to end this conversation with an
opportunity for you to kind of send us out into the world with
a sense of purpose and maybe a call to action. And in your
letter, you mentioned that this is a critical season
to love boldly, to serve joyfully, to lead courageously.
That's part of the vision statement of the United Methodist Church
you mentioned a few moments ago, inviting
people to maybe notify their Congress people about
concerns that they have. But I'm wondering if you might add or
have a few more thoughts on some concrete practices or
disciplines that our listener who's marching out into the world might
be able to adopt in their everyday life that help us
live into that call to love boldly, to serve joyfully and
lead courageously. Yes, yes, Ryan.
A colleague shared some years ago that conversation
can often serve as the as the currency for
positive change. So I would encourage people to find
ways to be in conversation. I
said conversation, not debate in conversation. Find
two or three people that you can be in conversation with. Some of that's happening
and we're helping to facilitate some of that through book studies, the
General Board of Church and Society. But I think people can do that
in their local communities, their local congregations, or their friend
circles. Some of that happens on
social media platforms. But find time for
conversations that bring about peace
and that create a sense of belonging.
That's one of the things I would recommend people do. The other thing is that
begin to read the Bible with an
open mind. Read the Bible and say, God, help me to understand
what you would want me to, to understand as I, as I begin
to read, whether it's starting from Genesis or starting from
the Gospel of Matthew,
help me to understand and find places where you
can, where we can experience belonging
and also find places where you can do good.
John Wesley said, do all the good you can in all the places you
can, in all the ways that you can for as long as you can.
And it's been proven, Ryan, that those who
serve often find a
residual or benefit in that service.
So helping others actually is
also the practice of blessing ourselves. I often say we should
not leave our churches or leave our
prayer circles bragging about how God has blessed
us as much as we should leave with the mandate to be a blessing
to others. I have a personal mission statement which is to
encourage all people with the love of Jesus Christ to rise to their
highest potential or to be encouraged. And so my
ministry is based on a platform of
encouragement because I've been encouraged so much throughout my life.
And I believe that that is what God comes to Jesus.
Jesus says the enemy comes to steal, the. The steal,
to kill, to steal and to destroy. But I have come that you
might have life. And some translations say say abundantly, some say more
fully or more completely. And so I
really believe, I really believe, I really believe. And I really believe
in the mission statement. So I believe in our vision statement, which is that we
should be at this time loving boldly. And so to
love boldly for me is easy in this work, because to love
boldly means to do justice, as the words
say. If you enter into the Methodist Building, on the ceiling in the atrium
are the words from Micah 6, do justice, love mercy, walk
humbly with God. That is a perfect way
to take us out. Bishop Trimble, thank you so much for your time this morning
and for sharing your experience with us. Thanks Brian
Cool. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of you. Thank
Compass Finding Spirituality in the Everyday we hope
today's conversation with Bishop Julius Trimble inspired you to love, boldly,
serve joyfully, and lead courageously in your own life.
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