WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.800 --> 00:00:04.320 What does it look like to find spirituality in the hardest of 2 00:00:04.320 --> 00:00:07.920 places? Well, we have an inspiring conversation with the 3 00:00:07.920 --> 00:00:10.160 Reverend Jabe Largen coming up. 4 00:00:14.080 --> 00:00:17.640 Welcome to Compass Finding Spirituality in the Everyday. I'm Ryan 5 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:21.480 Dunn, your host and fellow traveler on the spiritual 6 00:00:21.480 --> 00:00:24.960 journey. This episode delivers a remarkable 7 00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:28.270 story regarding addiction, tragedy, traffic, 8 00:00:28.420 --> 00:00:31.940 transformation and renewed hope. I chatted with Reverend J. 9 00:00:31.940 --> 00:00:35.620 Blargen, who opens up about his experiences 10 00:00:35.620 --> 00:00:39.060 growing up amidst the opioid crisis in Appalachia, 11 00:00:39.300 --> 00:00:42.940 wrestling with loss and the power of grace that 12 00:00:42.940 --> 00:00:46.660 emerged not really in spite of, but often 13 00:00:46.740 --> 00:00:50.460 through pain and vulnerability. We have lots of 14 00:00:50.460 --> 00:00:53.700 conversations around faith exploration and 15 00:00:53.700 --> 00:00:57.220 curiosity and investing in personal faith practices here on the 16 00:00:57.220 --> 00:01:00.890 Compass Podcast. So as if this kind of content is meaningful 17 00:01:00.890 --> 00:01:04.330 for you, then go ahead and hit the subscribe button on your 18 00:01:04.330 --> 00:01:08.090 podcast listening platform. If you've already done that, then I invite you 19 00:01:08.090 --> 00:01:11.930 to take the next step and help someone else discover Compass by 20 00:01:11.930 --> 00:01:15.610 leaving a rating and or review of the podcast on your 21 00:01:15.610 --> 00:01:19.090 podcast app that really helps new people discover our 22 00:01:19.090 --> 00:01:22.690 conversations here. Some things for you to discover in 23 00:01:22.690 --> 00:01:26.330 this particular episode include the role of honesty 24 00:01:26.330 --> 00:01:30.130 and vulnerability in spiritual growth, how faith 25 00:01:30.130 --> 00:01:33.470 communities can respond with radical love, and 26 00:01:33.630 --> 00:01:37.190 wrestling with the the big question, the why of 27 00:01:37.190 --> 00:01:40.910 suffering, and this thing that we have called the Odyssey. So if 28 00:01:40.910 --> 00:01:44.350 you're into that, stay tuned for this inspiring conversation 29 00:01:44.590 --> 00:01:48.350 with Reverend Jabe Largen. A bit about Jabe. 30 00:01:48.350 --> 00:01:52.190 He's the senior pastor of Pinehurst United Methodist church in Pinehurst, 31 00:01:52.190 --> 00:01:55.550 North Carolina. He served there since 2021. 32 00:01:55.950 --> 00:01:59.230 He's an ordained elder in the United 33 00:01:59.310 --> 00:02:02.230 Methodist Church. He's originally a native of 34 00:02:02.230 --> 00:02:05.790 Pulaski, Virginia. And Jabe is the author of 35 00:02:05.870 --> 00:02:09.390 they Call Me Jabe which was published towards the end of 36 00:02:09.390 --> 00:02:12.510 2025. Let's get to the conversation with Reverend 37 00:02:12.750 --> 00:02:16.470 Jargin. Oh, and one more thing. I just wanted 38 00:02:16.470 --> 00:02:20.270 to add a quick note about the audio quality of the interview. My 39 00:02:20.270 --> 00:02:24.080 microphone was way out of line and clipping a little bit, so 40 00:02:24.230 --> 00:02:28.030 so I hope it's not too distracting. The good news is Jabe does most 41 00:02:28.030 --> 00:02:31.870 of the talking and his audio level sounds fine. So if you can bear with 42 00:02:31.870 --> 00:02:34.710 it just a little bit when I'm doing a little speaking and when I get 43 00:02:34.710 --> 00:02:38.350 excited, then this should be a wonderful interview. Thanks so 44 00:02:38.350 --> 00:02:41.870 much and we'll talk to you soon. Jabe, thanks for taking the time to join 45 00:02:41.870 --> 00:02:45.350 us and sharing some of your story with us. How goes it with your 46 00:02:45.350 --> 00:02:47.590 soul over there in Pinehurst, North Carolina? 47 00:02:49.030 --> 00:02:52.170 Things are good, Ryan. It's, you know, 48 00:02:53.530 --> 00:02:57.050 a surreal thing right now going through this experience of 49 00:02:57.450 --> 00:03:00.570 leading the church while Also talking about 50 00:03:01.050 --> 00:03:04.570 the story of my life and in written form, 51 00:03:05.770 --> 00:03:09.370 but the whole process has actually been good for my soul. So I'm. 52 00:03:09.690 --> 00:03:13.490 I'm feeling kind of spiritually renewed right 53 00:03:13.490 --> 00:03:17.050 now as a result of. Yeah. Putting this 54 00:03:17.050 --> 00:03:20.730 memoir on paper. And. And then also, you know, church life 55 00:03:20.730 --> 00:03:24.490 is very life giving, which 56 00:03:24.490 --> 00:03:27.930 is a tremendous blessing. I don't 57 00:03:28.570 --> 00:03:32.090 at any time take for granted the fact that 58 00:03:32.330 --> 00:03:36.170 I'm surrounded by a healthy community of faith that's 59 00:03:36.810 --> 00:03:39.290 not only vibrant in their ministry, but also 60 00:03:40.810 --> 00:03:44.170 very much in tune with my needs 61 00:03:45.370 --> 00:03:49.210 and looking out for me and caring for me, especially 62 00:03:49.210 --> 00:03:52.990 during this time in which, you know, know, I wrote 63 00:03:52.990 --> 00:03:56.550 something that kind of was soul bearing. 64 00:03:57.910 --> 00:04:01.710 Yeah. Well, I want to talk. Start our conversation really, 65 00:04:01.710 --> 00:04:05.390 in. In gauging some of the reaction to 66 00:04:05.390 --> 00:04:09.230 burying yourself in this way. You and I have known each other for a number 67 00:04:09.230 --> 00:04:12.830 of years, but I've only known you as Reverend J. 68 00:04:12.830 --> 00:04:16.150 Bligen. Right. And while 69 00:04:16.470 --> 00:04:19.910 you had revealed a little bit of your history 70 00:04:20.070 --> 00:04:23.870 and that there was a history of addiction there and certainly 71 00:04:23.870 --> 00:04:27.710 some heart ache with that, I was not aware of the 72 00:04:27.710 --> 00:04:31.310 level of that until I really read your memoir here. And I'm 73 00:04:31.310 --> 00:04:34.950 wondering if now that you've kind of released all these stories into the 74 00:04:34.950 --> 00:04:38.390 world, I mean, there's a fear that comes with that. 75 00:04:38.710 --> 00:04:42.310 Certainly, as you have revealed parts of yourself earlier, 76 00:04:42.390 --> 00:04:46.080 you've had, for example, a supervisor who kind of said, well, 77 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:49.840 I don't know, Jay, but this may not work out the best for you. 78 00:04:50.080 --> 00:04:53.720 Has the reception from the faith community around 79 00:04:53.720 --> 00:04:57.520 you and your congregation been. Been warm? Have some people 80 00:04:57.760 --> 00:05:00.160 pulled back? Has there been some pushback? 81 00:05:01.840 --> 00:05:05.600 No pushback at all. It's actually kind of overwhelming. 82 00:05:06.560 --> 00:05:10.240 The love and support that I've been showered with, my whole 83 00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:12.400 family's been showered with, you know, Amber, 84 00:05:14.320 --> 00:05:17.760 my wife, and. And the kids. I mean, it's just been tremendous, 85 00:05:18.880 --> 00:05:22.000 especially from the church family. But, I mean, it's. It's kind of a unique 86 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:26.240 situation, Ryan, in that, like, folks like you, who I've 87 00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:29.680 known, like my congregation and so many other people 88 00:05:29.840 --> 00:05:33.160 since we moved to North Carolina and entered into 89 00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:36.920 ministry, like, they knew some of it, like you said, but they 90 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:40.570 didn't know the depths. So then they read the book, and they can't believe 91 00:05:40.570 --> 00:05:44.170 it. And then there are those who I grew up 92 00:05:44.170 --> 00:05:47.970 with and those who knew me as I 93 00:05:47.970 --> 00:05:51.290 was growing up, who read the book and 94 00:05:51.850 --> 00:05:55.490 see me now, and they can't 95 00:05:55.490 --> 00:05:59.050 believe it. You have 96 00:05:59.450 --> 00:06:03.290 two. Two polar opposites here 97 00:06:03.290 --> 00:06:06.730 of disbelief. I can't believe you did that, and 98 00:06:06.970 --> 00:06:08.570 I can't believe you're doing this, 99 00:06:11.350 --> 00:06:14.870 but the church has been tremendous. We had 100 00:06:15.990 --> 00:06:19.550 a book event recently where we just had a 101 00:06:19.550 --> 00:06:23.230 conversation kind of like this. And then at the end, I signed 102 00:06:23.230 --> 00:06:26.710 some copies and stuff, and just the outpouring of love and support, 103 00:06:28.710 --> 00:06:32.310 it was moving for me to feel that 104 00:06:32.310 --> 00:06:35.910 love. I think that in terms of United 105 00:06:35.990 --> 00:06:39.760 Methodist ministry, it goes to 106 00:06:39.760 --> 00:06:43.280 show that vulnerability and honesty from 107 00:06:44.240 --> 00:06:48.080 the pastor really might not be all that bad 108 00:06:48.080 --> 00:06:51.720 of a thing. Maybe it should be 109 00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:54.640 embraced more. Maybe we should be more open. 110 00:06:56.960 --> 00:07:00.560 And if congregations aren't open and receptive to 111 00:07:01.760 --> 00:07:05.200 embracing the vulnerability of their leader, then 112 00:07:05.520 --> 00:07:08.560 they need to perhaps take time to look in their own mirror. 113 00:07:09.620 --> 00:07:12.980 But, yeah, in my experience, it's been phenomenal. It's 114 00:07:13.140 --> 00:07:16.660 exceeded expectations. Was it therapeutic for you 115 00:07:16.820 --> 00:07:20.660 to revisit some of this stuff? Yeah, it 116 00:07:20.660 --> 00:07:24.420 was very therapeutic. Not in the moment. In the moment, it 117 00:07:24.420 --> 00:07:27.460 was painful and 118 00:07:27.940 --> 00:07:31.700 fearful for the reason that we just talked about. I was 119 00:07:31.700 --> 00:07:35.550 very afraid that in telling my truth, 120 00:07:35.550 --> 00:07:38.830 I would not be embraced or received. 121 00:07:40.670 --> 00:07:44.310 I did fear that the reaction would be much different 122 00:07:44.310 --> 00:07:47.470 than what it actually is. But 123 00:07:48.910 --> 00:07:52.430 the biggest burden was in the actual writing of it. 124 00:07:52.830 --> 00:07:55.990 I'm not a good journaler, so I've never 125 00:07:55.990 --> 00:07:59.230 journaled for any extended period of time. 126 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:03.120 And so the writing of the book was 127 00:08:04.960 --> 00:08:08.480 a process like that, except I'm doing it all at once 128 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:12.440 and over and over and over again. So, you know, 129 00:08:12.440 --> 00:08:15.840 I write some very 130 00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:21.840 hard things that have happened in life, and 131 00:08:21.920 --> 00:08:25.160 then, you know, I move on to the next very hard thing that happens in 132 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:28.930 life and so on and so forth until it comes time to edit it. 133 00:08:31.090 --> 00:08:34.890 Then when I edited it, I 134 00:08:34.890 --> 00:08:38.650 relive it again. And then, you 135 00:08:38.650 --> 00:08:42.049 know, about 48 to 72 hours later, I feel. I feel really good 136 00:08:43.090 --> 00:08:46.890 because, you know, I've got this off 137 00:08:46.890 --> 00:08:50.290 of my soul, right? And 138 00:08:51.660 --> 00:08:55.340 then it's time to edit again. And then 139 00:08:56.540 --> 00:08:59.660 some other feeling comes up that's probably unexpected 140 00:09:00.460 --> 00:09:04.140 or some other memory comes up that's unexpected, and then 141 00:09:04.140 --> 00:09:07.900 it's the whole process again. But now that it's all 142 00:09:07.900 --> 00:09:11.260 done, yes, extremely 143 00:09:11.260 --> 00:09:14.460 therapeutic. I've had people use the word 144 00:09:16.380 --> 00:09:19.900 cathartic. This must be cathartic for you. 145 00:09:20.380 --> 00:09:23.260 And I think that's a good way to describe it now. 146 00:09:24.620 --> 00:09:27.820 But the process itself was. Was. Was wrenching 147 00:09:28.220 --> 00:09:31.740 to put it the best way I know how. Yeah, well, 148 00:09:32.060 --> 00:09:35.540 I don't want to necessarily rehash the 149 00:09:35.540 --> 00:09:39.380 events that you detail well within the book of, you 150 00:09:39.380 --> 00:09:43.020 know, why this might be therapeutic. And in talking about, well, your 151 00:09:43.020 --> 00:09:46.780 addiction and revealing all that for people who want those gory 152 00:09:46.780 --> 00:09:50.200 details, like they can Read. But can you give us 153 00:09:50.360 --> 00:09:53.880 maybe, like a synoptic narrative, the 154 00:09:53.880 --> 00:09:57.680 elevator speech, so to speak, of what happens throughout 155 00:09:57.680 --> 00:10:00.920 your memoir here? Yeah, I think there are a couple 156 00:10:01.560 --> 00:10:04.440 strings that run throughout it. One is 157 00:10:06.280 --> 00:10:09.480 death and then hope. 158 00:10:11.160 --> 00:10:14.720 And with that death string, I mean, you have the addiction side of things. You 159 00:10:14.720 --> 00:10:18.520 have tragedy. You have a lot 160 00:10:18.520 --> 00:10:22.080 of things that are associated with death on that death 161 00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:25.800 string that runs throughout. But then you have the hope string 162 00:10:25.800 --> 00:10:29.600 that runs throughout. And grace 163 00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:33.360 is very much a big part of the hope piece as well. Or maybe 164 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:37.120 it's vice versa. Hope is part of the Grace piece. I mean, you 165 00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:40.920 can take it either way. But I 166 00:10:40.920 --> 00:10:44.690 grew up in Appalachia in a community that was 167 00:10:44.690 --> 00:10:48.450 once thriving, but quickly deteriorated 168 00:10:48.530 --> 00:10:52.170 in terms of its economy, its 169 00:10:52.170 --> 00:10:55.730 quality of life. Drug addiction 170 00:10:55.730 --> 00:10:59.370 was rampant in our community. Accessibility to 171 00:10:59.370 --> 00:11:02.850 narcotics was high. And that was always the case 172 00:11:02.850 --> 00:11:06.330 throughout my childhood. But then when 173 00:11:06.330 --> 00:11:09.810 OxyContin dropped, you know, in the late 174 00:11:09.810 --> 00:11:11.370 90s, early 2000s, 175 00:11:13.610 --> 00:11:17.410 we were ground zero for that, as was so many 176 00:11:17.410 --> 00:11:20.810 other communities in Appalachia. And so that really 177 00:11:21.210 --> 00:11:24.410 brought me to a bottom there in terms of 178 00:11:25.290 --> 00:11:28.930 addiction, which, you know, I started using drugs in general at the age of 179 00:11:28.930 --> 00:11:31.770 13. Elevator speech, 180 00:11:32.730 --> 00:11:34.660 you know, Grace. 181 00:11:36.420 --> 00:11:40.220 Grace that I didn't know existed, nor did 182 00:11:40.220 --> 00:11:43.820 I see it coming. Grace 183 00:11:43.820 --> 00:11:47.460 intervened, and a conversion 184 00:11:47.860 --> 00:11:50.820 happened. Then a calling happened. 185 00:11:52.340 --> 00:11:55.700 And then after that, old demons reappear. 186 00:11:56.820 --> 00:12:00.660 And those old demons reappear when that old 187 00:12:00.740 --> 00:12:04.560 foe named Death, who I'd been dealing with since my 188 00:12:04.560 --> 00:12:08.160 teens, that shows up in, you 189 00:12:08.160 --> 00:12:12.000 know, untimely ways as an unexpected guest, keeps knocking 190 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:14.800 on the door because of my calling, 191 00:12:16.640 --> 00:12:18.719 you know, and just my. 192 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:23.760 Also wrestling with that, as 193 00:12:24.640 --> 00:12:28.240 someone now in ministry who has been very successful in 194 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:30.840 ministry, I would. I would use that word, successful. 195 00:12:31.720 --> 00:12:35.440 Fruitful. And then also dealing 196 00:12:35.440 --> 00:12:39.280 with the loss of my 197 00:12:39.280 --> 00:12:42.520 father toward the end is another thing that happened 198 00:12:42.920 --> 00:12:45.880 as I was finishing the book. Actually, I'd finished. 199 00:12:47.880 --> 00:12:51.600 In my view, I was finished. And then he passed away right before my 200 00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:55.440 deadline, so I had to rewrite. And so the last couple chapters 201 00:12:55.440 --> 00:12:57.560 are very much what we would call an elegy. 202 00:13:00.410 --> 00:13:04.130 I think the whole thing's an elegy to piggyback off of some other dude who 203 00:13:04.130 --> 00:13:05.930 wrote a. A book, 204 00:13:07.130 --> 00:13:10.810 Appalachian elegy, so to speak. Okay. Yeah, 205 00:13:10.810 --> 00:13:14.410 but, I mean, I actually lived there, but 206 00:13:14.410 --> 00:13:18.170 never mind. So, yeah, it very 207 00:13:18.170 --> 00:13:21.890 much is like that. It's. It's analogy. 208 00:13:21.890 --> 00:13:24.330 It's. It's part lament, 209 00:13:25.450 --> 00:13:28.270 part preaching, part 210 00:13:29.870 --> 00:13:33.550 wandering and wondering, and, you know, 211 00:13:33.550 --> 00:13:37.230 it's a little bit of all that. But ultimately, you know, 212 00:13:37.230 --> 00:13:40.950 hope in the Face of death and enough 213 00:13:40.950 --> 00:13:43.790 grace to sustain at least one life. 214 00:13:46.030 --> 00:13:49.630 We talked about finding grace revealed 215 00:13:49.630 --> 00:13:53.350 even in the midst of debt. Yeah, there 216 00:13:53.350 --> 00:13:56.750 was an instance in your book in which you're 217 00:13:57.280 --> 00:14:00.720 talking about a child, 218 00:14:01.280 --> 00:14:04.400 your child that had died basically 219 00:14:05.760 --> 00:14:09.200 during pregnancy or just after being born. And at that 220 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:12.880 time, you could not recognize that there could be a God 221 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:17.680 that would allow something like this to happen. Like, if stuff like this happens, there, 222 00:14:17.680 --> 00:14:21.200 there can't be an all good God or a God in general. 223 00:14:21.520 --> 00:14:25.240 And yet you started going to church. It felt like not too 224 00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:28.320 long after that, was there something that 225 00:14:29.060 --> 00:14:32.780 impelled or give you the impulse to. To make that kind of turn? Was 226 00:14:32.780 --> 00:14:36.220 it social pressure that brought you into the church or what was 227 00:14:36.220 --> 00:14:39.060 happening there? It was family pressure because 228 00:14:39.780 --> 00:14:42.180 Miriam died in, in 2002. 229 00:14:44.339 --> 00:14:47.980 August 22, 2002. I 230 00:14:47.980 --> 00:14:51.460 got clean from, from 231 00:14:51.460 --> 00:14:55.300 OxyContin and the other narcotics in July 232 00:14:55.620 --> 00:14:59.240 of 05. And so there was, you know, it was almost 233 00:14:59.240 --> 00:15:02.280 three total years before I started going to church. Okay. 234 00:15:02.840 --> 00:15:04.680 And, you know, being clean is what 235 00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:09.880 led me to, you know, I would say 236 00:15:10.760 --> 00:15:13.720 a journey of spiritual discovery. 237 00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:18.320 And my wife Amber had started going to church with 238 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:21.640 my, my mama Large and my dad's mom 239 00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:25.700 and dad too. And yeah, 240 00:15:25.700 --> 00:15:29.220 they pretty much just drugged me. They were like, 241 00:15:29.220 --> 00:15:32.820 you're going. So I reluctantly went. 242 00:15:33.460 --> 00:15:35.780 And, you know, 243 00:15:37.300 --> 00:15:40.740 as, as grace often does, 244 00:15:42.340 --> 00:15:46.020 unexpected things start to happen as 245 00:15:46.020 --> 00:15:47.940 a result of being drug. 246 00:15:50.180 --> 00:15:53.380 And yeah, perceptions started to change 247 00:15:54.100 --> 00:15:57.260 in terms of whether or not there is a God and whether or not that 248 00:15:57.260 --> 00:16:01.020 God is good. But yeah, I didn't 249 00:16:01.020 --> 00:16:04.740 see in 02 how there could be a God 250 00:16:04.740 --> 00:16:08.580 that is good when babies are stillborn, 251 00:16:10.980 --> 00:16:14.700 especially when there was an attempt to 252 00:16:14.700 --> 00:16:18.520 get clean for that pregnancy. And so it's 253 00:16:18.520 --> 00:16:21.200 like, hey, finally doing the right thing now, 254 00:16:22.160 --> 00:16:25.360 you know, our baby's dead. Like, 255 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:29.360 in a weighted view of the world of, 256 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:34.120 you know, balancing out good and bad, now we're adding 257 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:37.960 more to the good plate, but the bad plate's 258 00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:40.800 still here. You know, 259 00:16:43.040 --> 00:16:46.800 where's the positive effect for the calls? Right. And 260 00:16:50.110 --> 00:16:53.910 it took a little while after going to church to even begin to 261 00:16:53.910 --> 00:16:56.990 comprehend the notion of grace 262 00:16:57.390 --> 00:17:01.230 and the question of theodicy. 263 00:17:02.670 --> 00:17:04.830 So it took a while, but 264 00:17:06.830 --> 00:17:10.550 I was just desperate enough and that void inside of me was just 265 00:17:10.550 --> 00:17:14.190 great enough that I was willing to keep showing up and to keep doing things 266 00:17:14.190 --> 00:17:17.789 like praying that some, some change 267 00:17:17.789 --> 00:17:21.549 and transformation was, was able to happen. What would Reverend 268 00:17:21.549 --> 00:17:25.229 Large and now say to somebody who's walking 269 00:17:25.229 --> 00:17:28.629 through the similar shoes of Jay Bargen back in 270 00:17:28.629 --> 00:17:32.469 2002? Like, you talked, you mentioned theodicy. And maybe you can describe 271 00:17:32.469 --> 00:17:35.949 what that is for us. Like, how do you. How do you 272 00:17:36.749 --> 00:17:39.149 communicate that within your own congregation? 273 00:17:40.429 --> 00:17:44.250 Yeah, look, I. I think that because, look, in 274 00:17:44.250 --> 00:17:47.610 seminary, Ryan, when they said, you can 275 00:17:48.330 --> 00:17:52.010 write a paper about whatever you want to write, I was writing about theodicy, 276 00:17:52.490 --> 00:17:56.290 that being the question of how can there be 277 00:17:56.290 --> 00:18:00.090 evil in the world if God is good? Why 278 00:18:00.090 --> 00:18:02.890 do bad things happen to good people? 279 00:18:04.490 --> 00:18:08.010 Why does tragedy happen? During that time, I was 280 00:18:08.410 --> 00:18:12.150 introduced to a sermon by William 281 00:18:12.150 --> 00:18:15.870 Sloane Coffin, a great preacher of the 20th 282 00:18:15.870 --> 00:18:19.510 century. Actually, I think it was Dr. Rick Lisher who 283 00:18:19.830 --> 00:18:23.030 introduced me to the sermon. And Dr. Lisher actually 284 00:18:24.070 --> 00:18:27.870 endorsed my book, which was kind of cool for me because he's one 285 00:18:27.870 --> 00:18:30.630 of my preaching and teaching heroes. 286 00:18:31.510 --> 00:18:35.270 But in the sermon, it's a sermon that Sloane Coffin preached 287 00:18:35.270 --> 00:18:39.100 after the death of his own son Alex. And so 288 00:18:39.100 --> 00:18:42.940 Alex drives off the road into 289 00:18:42.940 --> 00:18:46.380 the Boston harbor and dies. And so then Dr. 290 00:18:46.380 --> 00:18:50.020 Coffin has all this tremendous grief 291 00:18:50.020 --> 00:18:53.619 because his son's met an untimely death, which is obviously something 292 00:18:53.619 --> 00:18:57.060 I'm very familiar with in my experience. And so that 293 00:18:57.060 --> 00:19:00.860 sermon's preaching to me, right? And there's this lady who shows up 294 00:19:00.860 --> 00:19:04.590 at Coffin's home, and 295 00:19:04.590 --> 00:19:08.350 she brings food, like good church people do 296 00:19:08.350 --> 00:19:12.070 when there's death. As she comes into the home with the food, 297 00:19:12.070 --> 00:19:15.630 she says, I just don't understand the will of God, 298 00:19:16.190 --> 00:19:19.749 implying that God did this, that 299 00:19:19.749 --> 00:19:22.830 God willed Alex to drive into the Boston Harbor. 300 00:19:23.630 --> 00:19:27.310 And Sloane Coffin went off. He 301 00:19:27.310 --> 00:19:31.030 went off, as we would say where I grew up. He 302 00:19:31.030 --> 00:19:34.730 went ballistic. You know, he. I. He said. I 303 00:19:34.730 --> 00:19:36.930 say, you don't understand the will of God, lady. 304 00:19:39.170 --> 00:19:42.410 And so in my 305 00:19:42.410 --> 00:19:45.970 practice ever since, you know, reading that 306 00:19:45.970 --> 00:19:49.810 and running my own experiences 307 00:19:49.810 --> 00:19:53.330 through that, that same type of. Of 308 00:19:53.970 --> 00:19:57.650 theological thought. Yeah, I say, you don't understand 309 00:19:57.650 --> 00:20:01.290 the will of God, because how can you fully understand the will of 310 00:20:01.290 --> 00:20:04.710 God? How can you say that this is the will of God? 311 00:20:04.870 --> 00:20:08.390 It's not God's will, most likely that our 312 00:20:08.390 --> 00:20:12.110 baby died. I 313 00:20:12.110 --> 00:20:15.190 can't look at the whole of scripture and 314 00:20:15.990 --> 00:20:19.470 say that that's God's will, but at the same time, I can't say with certainty 315 00:20:19.470 --> 00:20:23.030 that it's not. And 316 00:20:23.030 --> 00:20:26.310 so what I try to do pastorally, 317 00:20:27.270 --> 00:20:30.910 in congregational care and also in teaching, is 318 00:20:30.910 --> 00:20:34.150 to just to try to 319 00:20:34.150 --> 00:20:37.950 emphasize the beauty that can be present 320 00:20:37.950 --> 00:20:41.590 in suffering, knowing that we can't 321 00:20:42.550 --> 00:20:46.390 say with certainty one way or another, what's God's will in the 322 00:20:46.390 --> 00:20:50.070 midst of tragedy, knowing that that beauty is not 323 00:20:50.070 --> 00:20:53.830 always easy to see, and then also just pointing back to the 324 00:20:53.830 --> 00:20:57.270 cross as a great example of beauty and 325 00:20:57.270 --> 00:21:01.010 suffering. Because I mean, if, if we 326 00:21:01.010 --> 00:21:03.970 as people who confess 327 00:21:05.090 --> 00:21:08.290 that we believe that Christ was crucified, dead and buried, 328 00:21:09.970 --> 00:21:13.690 if we truly believe that, then that 329 00:21:13.690 --> 00:21:16.530 that proclamation, that profession of faith should 330 00:21:17.250 --> 00:21:21.090 influence how we view our, our own encounters with, 331 00:21:21.090 --> 00:21:24.730 with death and tragedy and injustice and oppression 332 00:21:24.730 --> 00:21:28.130 and all these other things that haunt us 333 00:21:28.530 --> 00:21:32.370 in our living and that 334 00:21:32.370 --> 00:21:36.050 mess with our peace. You know, I've been in a lot of rooms 335 00:21:36.610 --> 00:21:39.410 where people are dying or people die, 336 00:21:40.530 --> 00:21:44.290 you know, and in other settings as a first responder in 337 00:21:44.290 --> 00:21:48.010 ministry, which I was for five years, I've been at 338 00:21:48.010 --> 00:21:51.570 a lot of accident scenes where family 339 00:21:51.570 --> 00:21:55.250 members show up heartbroken because of just 340 00:21:55.250 --> 00:21:58.170 something as, you know, 341 00:21:58.730 --> 00:22:02.570 unexpected and unpredictable as, you 342 00:22:02.570 --> 00:22:06.330 know, an ice patch in the road or something like that. 343 00:22:06.330 --> 00:22:09.930 And you know, we have this 344 00:22:09.930 --> 00:22:12.490 tendency to want to try to explain it away, 345 00:22:14.090 --> 00:22:17.450 you know, oh God, God needed them more than, 346 00:22:18.300 --> 00:22:21.820 than you do. We needed another angel. 347 00:22:22.140 --> 00:22:25.940 Yeah, there was an ice patch in the road. But 348 00:22:25.940 --> 00:22:29.780 that doesn't mean that God's absent in the situation. That doesn't mean 349 00:22:29.780 --> 00:22:33.580 that there's a lack of beauty to behold. 350 00:22:33.900 --> 00:22:37.700 It's just to where do we look to behold 351 00:22:37.700 --> 00:22:41.380 it? And for me that's a communal thing to figure 352 00:22:41.380 --> 00:22:44.630 out. And that's why the church is so important, 353 00:22:45.830 --> 00:22:48.470 because the church is. 354 00:22:51.270 --> 00:22:54.990 The church has the ability to help be eyes 355 00:22:54.990 --> 00:22:58.670 that see for those who are having a hard time seeing 356 00:22:58.670 --> 00:23:02.390 because of what they're experiencing. So 357 00:23:03.590 --> 00:23:06.790 yeah, those are the types of things I promote. And 358 00:23:07.510 --> 00:23:11.180 yeah, the community being the, 359 00:23:11.420 --> 00:23:15.020 the reminder, the reminder that, you 360 00:23:15.020 --> 00:23:18.660 know, God's love is sovereign and 361 00:23:18.660 --> 00:23:22.220 bad things happen and if God intervened in every situation, then 362 00:23:22.700 --> 00:23:26.500 we'd be in heaven and we're constantly reminded that we're 363 00:23:26.500 --> 00:23:30.300 not. Faith entails this tension 364 00:23:30.700 --> 00:23:33.820 with certainty in, in some degree 365 00:23:34.300 --> 00:23:37.820 where I think when it comes to theodicy, you know, we tend to, 366 00:23:38.650 --> 00:23:42.290 to lean into, well, oh, this happens for a reason because it gives us comfort 367 00:23:42.290 --> 00:23:45.850 and certainty. But you seem to 368 00:23:46.330 --> 00:23:49.690 push against a certain kind of 369 00:23:49.690 --> 00:23:53.530 certainty to a degree. And actually I want to read you something here. James, throw 370 00:23:53.530 --> 00:23:56.690 me a book. I don't know if that's a full pot. I like read back 371 00:23:56.690 --> 00:24:00.290 to the author part of their book. But just for the sake of our listener, 372 00:24:00.290 --> 00:24:03.170 I think that they need to hear it. And then I ask you to address 373 00:24:03.170 --> 00:24:06.790 Canada. No, I really appreciate it and I'm not 374 00:24:06.790 --> 00:24:10.310 reading it again. So this is even. This is it. All right, well, here's what 375 00:24:10.310 --> 00:24:14.070 you said in case you need didn't know in this grace 376 00:24:14.070 --> 00:24:17.550 filled existence who really deserves what and when? 377 00:24:17.870 --> 00:24:21.550 Why? And why is it that when what is 378 00:24:21.550 --> 00:24:25.310 deserved is levied, the levying is 379 00:24:25.470 --> 00:24:28.910 inconsistent from one reckoning or blessing to the next 380 00:24:29.720 --> 00:24:33.080 among us mortals? If anyone claims to know the answer 381 00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:37.040 to any of the above, undoubtedly I will without shame, 382 00:24:37.040 --> 00:24:40.840 run away from them as fast as I can. I'd encourage 383 00:24:40.840 --> 00:24:44.600 you to do the same. Why? Why 384 00:24:44.600 --> 00:24:48.400 run from such certainty? What makes you so uncomfortable with 385 00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:51.800 that? I'm really satisfied with how that sounded. 386 00:24:52.760 --> 00:24:56.480 Right. If they do like an audiobook, I 387 00:24:56.480 --> 00:24:58.680 might want you to read it. Oh, w. 388 00:25:01.460 --> 00:25:04.740 Those sermon moments when you're like, oh, man, it was so powerful when you said 389 00:25:04.740 --> 00:25:08.100 this and you're like, I said what? Yeah. 390 00:25:09.540 --> 00:25:13.260 No. So, yeah, I think that I 391 00:25:13.260 --> 00:25:16.340 am pushing back against certainty always. And 392 00:25:19.380 --> 00:25:22.980 look, there. There are few things to which I am 393 00:25:22.980 --> 00:25:26.780 certain. And those things 394 00:25:26.780 --> 00:25:28.340 that fall into the realm of 395 00:25:31.800 --> 00:25:34.600 why or how. 396 00:25:35.320 --> 00:25:37.880 I'm not going down the road of certainty 397 00:25:39.560 --> 00:25:43.240 because why and how are, as we would say, above my pay grade. 398 00:25:44.200 --> 00:25:46.600 And it's not for me to do that. 399 00:25:51.240 --> 00:25:54.800 It's more imperative for me to lean into the 400 00:25:54.800 --> 00:25:58.470 mystery than it is to try to seek out all the 401 00:25:58.470 --> 00:26:02.030 answers. Now, we do have to have some idea 402 00:26:04.990 --> 00:26:08.750 of what may be. And a lot of times we have to have 403 00:26:08.750 --> 00:26:12.070 some idea of what may be so that we can be a hope that is 404 00:26:12.070 --> 00:26:15.390 faithful and what we believe to be 405 00:26:15.870 --> 00:26:19.630 at least close to true. So much 406 00:26:19.630 --> 00:26:23.400 as we can say what is true. But how and why? I mean, 407 00:26:23.880 --> 00:26:27.000 look, if again, we 408 00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:33.720 take serious the things that we confess about our faith, 409 00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:38.000 how and why is really hard to say with certainty. And 410 00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:41.600 in terms of deserving, you know, in terms of 411 00:26:41.600 --> 00:26:45.360 deserving, because if I get what I deserve. We're not 412 00:26:45.360 --> 00:26:48.520 talking right now, you know, causes 413 00:26:49.080 --> 00:26:52.600 most likely death, but possibly also jail, prison, 414 00:26:53.560 --> 00:26:57.240 mental institution. I mean, there. In terms of deserving, 415 00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:01.120 based off of how society views who's 416 00:27:01.120 --> 00:27:04.960 worthy of what, then there's no way. I live in 417 00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:08.400 Pinehurst, North Carolina, and lead a 418 00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:12.080 phenomenal church and, you know, have my 419 00:27:12.080 --> 00:27:15.390 own house and drive my own car. And so 420 00:27:15.870 --> 00:27:19.630 it goes back to that Sloan Coffin example too, I think, and 421 00:27:19.790 --> 00:27:23.510 the lady bringing in the food and I just don't understand the 422 00:27:23.510 --> 00:27:27.350 will of God. Like, she was certain that this was God's will. That 423 00:27:27.350 --> 00:27:31.150 was harmful and misguided too, no matter 424 00:27:31.150 --> 00:27:34.670 how well intentioned. So, 425 00:27:34.670 --> 00:27:38.470 yeah, I don't run much 426 00:27:38.470 --> 00:27:41.940 these days, and I would actually probably be more 427 00:27:42.820 --> 00:27:46.540 prone to push back 428 00:27:46.540 --> 00:27:48.100 as opposed to run from them. 429 00:27:51.780 --> 00:27:55.620 You know, if need 430 00:27:55.620 --> 00:27:57.060 be, then I would run because 431 00:27:59.460 --> 00:28:03.300 I just don't trust anybody who's that sure of anything when it comes 432 00:28:03.300 --> 00:28:07.130 to matters of life and death and what's deserved 433 00:28:07.130 --> 00:28:10.530 and what's not, that's. I, When I, When I read the gospel, 434 00:28:10.850 --> 00:28:14.450 when I read Paul, when I read 435 00:28:14.610 --> 00:28:17.810 scripture in general, I, I don't see how you can ever be 436 00:28:18.690 --> 00:28:22.250 that certain of anything other than the fact 437 00:28:22.250 --> 00:28:25.810 that, you know, the whole of scripture points to 438 00:28:27.090 --> 00:28:30.530 a God who will go to any links 439 00:28:31.900 --> 00:28:35.500 to find what is lost until 440 00:28:35.660 --> 00:28:38.700 it is found. Yeah, 441 00:28:39.420 --> 00:28:42.460 so often that that finding occurs within community. 442 00:28:43.020 --> 00:28:46.700 You've talked a little bit about how church community was 443 00:28:47.340 --> 00:28:49.980 part of your, your spiritual awakening, 444 00:28:51.020 --> 00:28:54.060 but also the, the community around recovery 445 00:28:54.460 --> 00:28:57.980 seems to have been a profound influence on your spiritual 446 00:28:57.980 --> 00:29:01.580 awakening as well. You noted that you learned to pray 447 00:29:02.120 --> 00:29:05.840 within Narcotics Anonymous. And I'm 448 00:29:05.840 --> 00:29:09.640 wondering, was there a time 449 00:29:09.880 --> 00:29:13.320 when you remembered, like your prayers 450 00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:17.799 becoming something genuine? Like a lot of us, even 451 00:29:17.799 --> 00:29:21.640 before we are quote, unquote, believers will pray 452 00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:25.480 out of a necessity. Right. Sort of the idea that there's 453 00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:29.120 no atheists and foxholes. Right. So there are probably some 454 00:29:29.120 --> 00:29:32.830 moments when you were in the, in the junk and, and you 455 00:29:32.830 --> 00:29:36.510 were muttering some prayers there. But do you remember a time in which it 456 00:29:36.510 --> 00:29:40.270 became something more for you than just maybe the, the pleading to get out of 457 00:29:40.270 --> 00:29:43.830 a situation and then it was something a little bit more 458 00:29:43.830 --> 00:29:47.430 heartfelt? Yeah, absolutely. So we call 459 00:29:47.430 --> 00:29:51.070 those prayers prayers of desperation. Yeah, you know, 460 00:29:51.070 --> 00:29:54.670 prayers of desperation because 461 00:29:54.670 --> 00:29:57.280 desperation will push you to the point of prayer. 462 00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:02.160 But yeah, my prayers really start to become more genuine 463 00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:05.440 the more I got clean and the more I prayed. 464 00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:12.000 And also my prayers became more genuine 465 00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:14.320 when I stopped talking so much. 466 00:30:16.960 --> 00:30:19.920 Howard Thurman, who I absolutely love. I love Thurman. 467 00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:23.950 Going to teach a class on him at church in the spring. 468 00:30:25.550 --> 00:30:29.390 He basically frames meditation 469 00:30:29.630 --> 00:30:31.950 as listening for the sound of the genuine. 470 00:30:33.310 --> 00:30:36.270 Listening for the sound of the genuine. And 471 00:30:38.910 --> 00:30:42.270 my early prayers were so much me asking, 472 00:30:43.950 --> 00:30:47.590 asking, asking, asking. And it 473 00:30:47.590 --> 00:30:51.400 wasn't until I stopped asking and just learned to just sit 474 00:30:51.400 --> 00:30:54.720 and to be, to just be that 475 00:30:55.120 --> 00:30:58.480 the sound of the genuine started to come through. 476 00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:03.440 And all that happened, you know, in my first year getting clean. 477 00:31:04.560 --> 00:31:08.400 And like I point out in the book, church 478 00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:12.200 really didn't teach me that. Narcotics Anonymous taught me 479 00:31:12.200 --> 00:31:15.830 that. And I've often 480 00:31:15.830 --> 00:31:19.430 said that if you take the principles of 12 step 481 00:31:19.430 --> 00:31:23.150 recovery and take them out into the world or 482 00:31:23.150 --> 00:31:26.910 even within the church, it could be a transformative thing. Because, I mean, 483 00:31:26.910 --> 00:31:30.470 you do focus on actually praying and meditating 484 00:31:30.550 --> 00:31:32.790 and trying to improve yourself, 485 00:31:33.990 --> 00:31:37.790 listing out your character defects, like, tell me all 486 00:31:37.790 --> 00:31:41.310 the things that are wrong about you and tell me all the things that you 487 00:31:41.310 --> 00:31:45.070 feel done that have caused harm to others, and then go make amends 488 00:31:45.070 --> 00:31:48.830 to them all. And then every 489 00:31:48.830 --> 00:31:52.350 night, make an inventory of yourself and what you did during that day and then 490 00:31:52.350 --> 00:31:55.590 determine, do you need to make any amends? Like, if we take that out into 491 00:31:55.590 --> 00:31:59.390 the world, we could really see some change. But the problem then is 492 00:31:59.390 --> 00:32:02.870 that people like me would no longer be able to identify because 493 00:32:02.950 --> 00:32:06.470 everybody would be in that boat and 494 00:32:06.550 --> 00:32:10.300 a lot of us addicts and alcoholics would be, would be dying 495 00:32:10.300 --> 00:32:13.780 still that currently were not because of the 496 00:32:13.780 --> 00:32:17.540 principles. But eventually another 497 00:32:17.540 --> 00:32:20.700 thing that happened was as I 498 00:32:21.740 --> 00:32:25.300 continued to practice prayer, 499 00:32:25.300 --> 00:32:28.540 meditation and those spiritual principles, 500 00:32:29.180 --> 00:32:32.980 eventually the discipleship, church 501 00:32:32.980 --> 00:32:36.700 type of things, and the 12 step recovery 502 00:32:36.700 --> 00:32:39.860 type of things, they kind of became wed together. 503 00:32:40.980 --> 00:32:43.620 And that's really when, you know, I started to grow 504 00:32:44.900 --> 00:32:48.580 spiritually. And that's when I really started hearing God 505 00:32:48.660 --> 00:32:51.780 calling me was when 506 00:32:53.300 --> 00:32:56.660 church entered the equation. 507 00:32:58.660 --> 00:33:01.460 You know, up until that point, yeah, I was growing spiritually, 508 00:33:02.470 --> 00:33:04.150 but I was still lacking something. 509 00:33:06.230 --> 00:33:10.030 And then as that work 510 00:33:10.030 --> 00:33:13.750 started to happen alongside the other work, then, you 511 00:33:13.750 --> 00:33:17.590 know, there was a 512 00:33:17.590 --> 00:33:19.510 different type of wholeness. 513 00:33:22.470 --> 00:33:26.110 It's been a while since I've researched this, but I 514 00:33:26.110 --> 00:33:29.870 believe that in their creation, the 12 steps from alcoholics 515 00:33:29.870 --> 00:33:32.790 Anonymous, which I'm assuming have also been carried over into 516 00:33:33.270 --> 00:33:36.790 Narcotics Anonymous. Yeah, basically 517 00:33:37.110 --> 00:33:40.150 it was developed as a pathway of discipleship. So 518 00:33:40.630 --> 00:33:44.310 that, and I, I'm curious, like, do you see that 519 00:33:44.310 --> 00:33:47.630 within, like, does your, your church journey of 520 00:33:47.630 --> 00:33:51.390 discipleship, for example, mirror the 12 521 00:33:51.390 --> 00:33:55.110 steps in any way? It needs two more probably, 522 00:33:56.870 --> 00:33:59.430 but I think, you know, in terms of intention, 523 00:34:00.410 --> 00:34:03.690 yes. In terms of practice, I think it could 524 00:34:04.650 --> 00:34:08.010 perhaps be 525 00:34:08.170 --> 00:34:11.890 utilized or emphasized more. But yeah, you're 526 00:34:11.890 --> 00:34:15.130 right, it's very much so. You can go back 527 00:34:15.930 --> 00:34:19.650 centuries within Christian history and 528 00:34:19.650 --> 00:34:23.410 you can see it's the same model. It's the same 529 00:34:23.410 --> 00:34:27.130 model and it's the same model that earlier alcoholic groups used 530 00:34:27.210 --> 00:34:31.030 prior to the formation of Alcoholics Anonymous. It's, you 531 00:34:31.030 --> 00:34:34.510 know, it's about discovery and confession is 532 00:34:34.910 --> 00:34:38.590 very Christian thing. Right. So, yeah, 533 00:34:38.590 --> 00:34:42.430 it's. You can go back. Like I framed the book 534 00:34:42.510 --> 00:34:46.069 in terms of Augustine's Confessions. I don't know if you 535 00:34:46.069 --> 00:34:49.430 noticed that, but it's very much like a 536 00:34:49.430 --> 00:34:53.150 hillbilly version of Augustine's Confessions. And 537 00:34:53.630 --> 00:34:55.150 playing a part of Augustine is 538 00:34:57.059 --> 00:35:00.779 Jabe, which is really weird. He and I don't have much 539 00:35:00.779 --> 00:35:02.819 in common other than we had a lot to confess. 540 00:35:04.339 --> 00:35:07.619 You know, he's a little, he's a little brighter than me, but 541 00:35:08.419 --> 00:35:11.699 yeah. So, I mean, if you go back to Augustine and 542 00:35:11.699 --> 00:35:15.379 Confessions. It's kind of that model. It's like, 543 00:35:15.619 --> 00:35:18.179 yeah, I need to confess this and 544 00:35:20.019 --> 00:35:21.619 my spirit is 545 00:35:23.550 --> 00:35:26.910 awake now and I'm praising God for it. And 546 00:35:27.790 --> 00:35:31.590 you know what? I probably need to confess a little bit more. And, you know, 547 00:35:31.590 --> 00:35:34.670 it's. It's. That's discipleship, you know. 548 00:35:35.390 --> 00:35:39.110 Yeah. And it's 12 steps, too. So. Yeah, I appreciate 549 00:35:39.110 --> 00:35:42.830 you asking the question because I think if 550 00:35:42.830 --> 00:35:43.150 we, 551 00:35:46.830 --> 00:35:49.950 those of us especially who have experience in both worlds, 552 00:35:50.940 --> 00:35:54.580 if we take serious the work of disciple making, we can learn a lot 553 00:35:54.580 --> 00:35:58.420 from those principles while understanding that those principles were formed 554 00:35:58.420 --> 00:36:02.220 by principles that already existed within the community of Christian 555 00:36:02.220 --> 00:36:02.620 faith. 556 00:36:06.460 --> 00:36:10.260 Well, to kind of shift gears a little bit, we're recording this towards the end 557 00:36:10.260 --> 00:36:14.020 of 2025. It's been a year, and you write about 558 00:36:14.020 --> 00:36:17.400 it in the book that certainly this has been a year with some hard 559 00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:21.080 losses for you. Not to negate 560 00:36:21.080 --> 00:36:24.680 that, but just that there's so much hope lifted up within 561 00:36:25.560 --> 00:36:29.280 your book itself. And this idea that God 562 00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:32.999 always kind of pursues us in hope, that grace is ever present. I'm 563 00:36:32.999 --> 00:36:36.680 wondering, like, what has you hopeful for moving into the next year of 564 00:36:36.680 --> 00:36:40.120 2026? What are you looking forward to either in life or 565 00:36:40.120 --> 00:36:43.680 ministry? One thing that's happened as a result of the book 566 00:36:43.680 --> 00:36:47.410 coming out that I didn't see coming 567 00:36:48.050 --> 00:36:51.170 was the amount of love and support shown to me by the congregation 568 00:36:51.730 --> 00:36:55.450 and by other people who I've known. And then I knew that people 569 00:36:55.450 --> 00:36:59.250 would also want to, like, share openly and vulnerably with me, 570 00:37:00.690 --> 00:37:04.410 both of it. But the depths at which people are willing 571 00:37:04.410 --> 00:37:07.250 to go now is really, 572 00:37:09.090 --> 00:37:12.770 really beautiful. And the other thing about that 573 00:37:12.770 --> 00:37:16.610 is that that shows that through my vulnerability and 574 00:37:17.570 --> 00:37:21.170 my bearing my soul in a way that was 575 00:37:21.490 --> 00:37:25.210 confessional in nature, I 576 00:37:25.210 --> 00:37:27.490 haven't lost any integrity and leadership. 577 00:37:28.930 --> 00:37:32.770 I've actually gained some because people are now willing to 578 00:37:32.770 --> 00:37:36.510 go to depths that they weren't going to before. Gives 579 00:37:36.510 --> 00:37:39.630 me great hope for humanity and the church that 580 00:37:40.910 --> 00:37:44.510 we can be real with one another, you 581 00:37:44.510 --> 00:37:48.270 know, because let's face it, just like so many people 582 00:37:48.270 --> 00:37:52.030 in the book and just like so many people you've known and the 583 00:37:52.030 --> 00:37:55.590 billions and billions of breathed this air before 584 00:37:55.590 --> 00:37:58.750 us, there will become there, there will be a day 585 00:38:00.030 --> 00:38:03.550 when our breath gives out, we reach the end of our words, 586 00:38:03.550 --> 00:38:07.390 and that's it, right? So 587 00:38:07.390 --> 00:38:10.790 why not be real in the interim? Why not 588 00:38:10.950 --> 00:38:14.470 use the breath and the words to just be genuine, 589 00:38:15.830 --> 00:38:19.630 to be your authentic self? What do we have 590 00:38:19.630 --> 00:38:22.710 to lose? Anything that 591 00:38:24.150 --> 00:38:27.750 perhaps we fear that we have to lose? 592 00:38:29.830 --> 00:38:33.250 Is it really that important. So what the book has 593 00:38:33.250 --> 00:38:36.850 reminded me is that real is 594 00:38:36.850 --> 00:38:40.570 okay. And I think people have 595 00:38:40.570 --> 00:38:43.890 a deep longing for a shared realness. 596 00:38:44.610 --> 00:38:48.250 So I've got some hope for that. And I wish I could take credit 597 00:38:48.250 --> 00:38:51.930 and say, oh, man, I did this great thing and wrote this book. 598 00:38:51.930 --> 00:38:55.210 Now people want to be real and I want to be real and all this 599 00:38:55.210 --> 00:38:58.900 and all that. But no, I mean real is real because 600 00:38:58.900 --> 00:39:02.500 God is really real. You know, Gregory of 601 00:39:02.500 --> 00:39:03.580 Nyssa used that. 602 00:39:07.740 --> 00:39:10.380 Phrase to describe God. The really real, 603 00:39:11.260 --> 00:39:15.020 really real. The God that we cannot understand but 604 00:39:15.020 --> 00:39:18.140 we know to be really real. You know, 605 00:39:18.700 --> 00:39:22.460 we have a deep longing for that and God 606 00:39:22.460 --> 00:39:26.150 so really real that God became flesh and dwelt among 607 00:39:26.150 --> 00:39:29.790 us. Our God is incarnational. That's 608 00:39:29.790 --> 00:39:33.390 real. So why not be real in. In response to 609 00:39:33.390 --> 00:39:36.670 that? It's, it's certainly 610 00:39:37.950 --> 00:39:41.790 Ron made me, having told some of the hard truths 611 00:39:41.790 --> 00:39:45.310 that I tell toward the end of the book about my own flaws, 612 00:39:45.630 --> 00:39:48.830 even in ministry and fruitful ministry. 613 00:39:49.870 --> 00:39:52.430 It has led to, you know, the last, 614 00:39:54.100 --> 00:39:57.380 you know, six plus months being 615 00:39:58.340 --> 00:40:02.140 some of the best six plus months that I've had in terms of 616 00:40:02.140 --> 00:40:05.980 how I feel about myself and how I view 617 00:40:05.980 --> 00:40:09.700 the world. And yeah, that's. 618 00:40:10.100 --> 00:40:13.900 That's not on. That's not on accident. Well, Jabe, thanks 619 00:40:13.900 --> 00:40:17.500 so much for taking the time. It's really good to reconnect with you 620 00:40:17.500 --> 00:40:21.200 and, and thanks for sharing your 621 00:40:21.200 --> 00:40:24.840 story so openly. And I hope that people can kind of take a sense of 622 00:40:26.920 --> 00:40:30.400 boldness in moving forward to, to be a little bit more 623 00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:33.880 vulnerable in themselves, too. And, you know, and I do want to note 624 00:40:34.520 --> 00:40:38.120 just especially for people in ministry, that there can be 625 00:40:39.560 --> 00:40:42.840 a temptation to not be vulnerable. 626 00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:47.150 And so hopefully in sharing your story and even what's happened 627 00:40:47.150 --> 00:40:50.310 after, we can all take some courage and 628 00:40:50.950 --> 00:40:54.790 in moving forward with that, which is a little bit more humility and vulnerability. 629 00:40:54.870 --> 00:40:58.590 So thank you for that. Thanks, Ryan. You're on my. One of my 630 00:40:58.590 --> 00:41:02.390 favorite folks that I've, I've come to know in ministry. I love your spirit. And 631 00:41:03.510 --> 00:41:06.550 yeah, I know that it's risky to, 632 00:41:07.990 --> 00:41:11.510 to share openly if you are in ministry and 633 00:41:11.910 --> 00:41:15.150 certainly having strong relationships that are already founded, 634 00:41:15.700 --> 00:41:19.540 that helps. I wouldn't go in on day one and say, let me, let me 635 00:41:19.540 --> 00:41:20.980 tell you everything that's wrong with me. 636 00:41:25.540 --> 00:41:28.180 A little bit at a time. You're gonna be okay. 637 00:41:30.820 --> 00:41:33.700 Thanks so much for joining us on the Compass podcast. 638 00:41:34.180 --> 00:41:37.620 Spirituality, Everything. If you enjoyed today's 639 00:41:37.620 --> 00:41:41.170 conversation, be sure to check, check out 640 00:41:41.170 --> 00:41:44.930 our website. You're going to 641 00:41:44.930 --> 00:41:48.770 find episode notes there. Today's episode all of 642 00:41:48.770 --> 00:41:50.330 our other episodes. Plus. 643 00:41:54.810 --> 00:41:56.810 Big thank you as always to the team that you. 644 00:42:01.050 --> 00:42:04.730 Haven't already. Again, a reminder to take a moment to subscribe to radio 645 00:42:05.290 --> 00:42:08.350 podcast the best ways to help others find. 646 00:42:11.950 --> 00:42:15.630 Thanks again for sticking with us through this episode. See you 647 00:42:15.630 --> 00:42:17.070 again real soon. Peace.