WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.120 --> 00:00:04.800 Have you ever proverbially hit the wall? Maybe like 2 00:00:04.800 --> 00:00:08.640 mentally hit the wall or physically hit the wall, but what about 3 00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:12.280 spiritually? Well, that's what we're going to get into on this episode 4 00:00:12.280 --> 00:00:13.120 of Compass. 5 00:00:18.880 --> 00:00:22.640 Welcome back to Compass, finding spirituality in the everyday. I'm Reverend 6 00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:26.400 Ryan Dunn, host and producer for Compass. We're going 7 00:00:26.400 --> 00:00:29.840 to take a journey from being a nominal 8 00:00:29.840 --> 00:00:33.340 Christian to being a committed disciple, emphasizing 9 00:00:33.660 --> 00:00:37.260 the importance of community, spiritual disciplines, 10 00:00:37.500 --> 00:00:41.180 and authentic faith. Our guide for this journey is 11 00:00:41.180 --> 00:00:44.540 Reverend Roger Ross, author of Kinda Christian, 12 00:00:44.780 --> 00:00:48.019 who recommends some practical ways to deepen your 13 00:00:48.019 --> 00:00:51.260 relationship with God, understand the true meaning of 14 00:00:51.260 --> 00:00:54.820 discipleship, and learn how to navigate spiritual walls and 15 00:00:54.820 --> 00:00:58.580 crises. Reverend Roger Ross has served as a pastor in Texas, the 16 00:00:58.580 --> 00:01:02.380 British island of Guernsey, and in Illinois. He's 17 00:01:02.380 --> 00:01:06.180 a church planter and founder of the Humility Group. His 18 00:01:06.180 --> 00:01:10.020 book, Kind of Christian, offers a grace-filled path 19 00:01:10.260 --> 00:01:14.060 towards a deeper life in faith for anyone who's been stuck 20 00:01:14.060 --> 00:01:17.140 in spiritual neutrality or spiritually neutral. 21 00:01:17.620 --> 00:01:21.140 If conversations like this are helpful for your spiritual journey, 22 00:01:21.220 --> 00:01:24.980 we'd be incredibly grateful if you could take a moment 23 00:01:24.980 --> 00:01:28.700 to leave us a rating and/or a review. Your feedback 24 00:01:28.700 --> 00:01:32.270 not only helps us improve the show but also makes a huge 25 00:01:32.270 --> 00:01:36.070 difference in helping more listeners like you find us. So 26 00:01:36.070 --> 00:01:39.830 let's talk spiritual walls, experiences of glory, and 27 00:01:39.830 --> 00:01:43.510 understanding discipleship with Roger Ross. Reverend 28 00:01:43.510 --> 00:01:47.190 Roger Ross, thank you so much for joining us on the Compass Podcast. 29 00:01:47.190 --> 00:01:50.630 How goes it with your soul today? Thanks for asking, 30 00:01:50.630 --> 00:01:54.310 Ryan. I'm glad to be here. My soul's good today. I have 31 00:01:54.310 --> 00:01:57.710 had a lot of wonderful things happen in the last couple of days, but even 32 00:01:57.710 --> 00:02:01.430 deeper than that, I feel like I'm on a good track. I feel 33 00:02:01.430 --> 00:02:05.230 like I'm where I'm supposed to be in God's grander economy. 34 00:02:05.950 --> 00:02:09.710 Well, we're talking about a book that you've written called Kind of Christian, which 35 00:02:09.950 --> 00:02:13.190 takes us on a journey from being maybe 36 00:02:13.190 --> 00:02:16.830 nominally spiritual or nominally Christian into the pathway 37 00:02:16.830 --> 00:02:20.110 of discipleship. And a lot of times I think that we can 38 00:02:20.110 --> 00:02:23.750 conflate the word disciple and the idea of a church 39 00:02:23.750 --> 00:02:27.150 member, and you pull those out or 40 00:02:27.150 --> 00:02:29.990 separate them pretty well within the book. Can you tell us a little bit about 41 00:02:29.990 --> 00:02:33.570 that? Like, what What is the difference between a church member and a 42 00:02:33.570 --> 00:02:37.370 disciple? That's a great question. Actually, I 43 00:02:37.370 --> 00:02:40.650 think our world is just teeming with good people, 44 00:02:41.130 --> 00:02:44.930 frankly. They would check the Christian box if anybody asked, but they feel 45 00:02:44.930 --> 00:02:48.490 like something's missing. You know, many of them have done church. 46 00:02:48.810 --> 00:02:52.170 They know the routine. It just doesn't feel personal to them. 47 00:02:52.490 --> 00:02:56.210 So the biggest question that they ask in those places deep down 48 00:02:56.210 --> 00:02:59.890 where no one generally hears other than the Spirit of God is, 49 00:03:00.450 --> 00:03:03.890 is there more? And so whether we show up on Sundays or not, 50 00:03:03.970 --> 00:03:06.930 we wonder if there's something that can fill that emptiness 51 00:03:07.330 --> 00:03:11.010 inside. I mean, we may know the Christian story, we may even 52 00:03:11.010 --> 00:03:14.690 believe in Jesus, but we don't always know how to follow him. 53 00:03:15.730 --> 00:03:18.930 That's the difference. Okay. All right. 54 00:03:19.330 --> 00:03:23.010 So can you tell us some of the traits of a 55 00:03:23.010 --> 00:03:26.770 discipleship? Or of a disciple and how that might differentiate 56 00:03:26.770 --> 00:03:30.490 from the traits of a church member? I realize that there's quite a bit of 57 00:03:30.490 --> 00:03:34.130 overlap, but— Yeah, sure. There, there is some overlap. I mean, 58 00:03:34.370 --> 00:03:37.730 one of the things I talk about in the introduction of the book is 59 00:03:38.050 --> 00:03:41.850 what it generally means in Western Christianity to be 60 00:03:41.850 --> 00:03:45.690 a good member. It generally means that you hold a few beliefs about 61 00:03:45.690 --> 00:03:49.330 God and Jesus in your head. You attend, maybe occasionally. 62 00:03:49.330 --> 00:03:52.750 You may give. A little bit, and you may even 63 00:03:52.750 --> 00:03:56.590 serve a little bit, and that makes you a good 64 00:03:56.590 --> 00:03:59.630 member. And it's generally designed around 65 00:04:01.070 --> 00:04:04.350 what, what can help the institution to be able to continue forward. 66 00:04:05.230 --> 00:04:09.030 And there's nothing necessarily bad about that in 67 00:04:09.030 --> 00:04:12.350 and of itself, but it doesn't actually address 68 00:04:12.590 --> 00:04:16.390 the deeper issues in our lives, those places 69 00:04:16.390 --> 00:04:19.759 where we feel like there's a hole in our soul and there's nothing that's able 70 00:04:19.759 --> 00:04:23.599 to fill it. Those times when we feel like we, you 71 00:04:23.599 --> 00:04:27.319 know, we've said the words, we believe in Jesus, 72 00:04:27.399 --> 00:04:31.079 but we can't access his power. You know, one way to talk about 73 00:04:31.079 --> 00:04:34.759 this is to use one of my favorite phrases, 74 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:38.559 which is genuine imitation leather. Right? Like, what 75 00:04:38.559 --> 00:04:41.879 is that? Right? It's not leather. What is it? Right? 76 00:04:42.199 --> 00:04:45.519 And there are a lot of people that kind of live their Christian life that 77 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:49.180 way. It's not exactly Christian, 78 00:04:49.180 --> 00:04:52.180 but it's kind of Christian. All right. 79 00:04:52.660 --> 00:04:56.420 And one of the ways that you know that is when you get into 80 00:04:56.420 --> 00:04:59.860 a tight spot, just like genuine imitation leather, 81 00:05:00.180 --> 00:05:03.900 it cracks and breaks. Now they may bear the name of 82 00:05:03.900 --> 00:05:06.660 Jesus, but don't know how to access his power. 83 00:05:09.380 --> 00:05:12.820 Hmm. Tell me about accessing Jesus's power. I'm, 84 00:05:13.590 --> 00:05:17.430 I'm intrigued. Are there practices that help open that up? Is it 85 00:05:17.430 --> 00:05:21.111 a mindset? So it's a, I believe it's a combination 86 00:05:21.270 --> 00:05:24.990 of those things, but it might be helpful if I just gave 87 00:05:24.990 --> 00:05:28.550 a little bit of a genesis of the book because that I 88 00:05:28.550 --> 00:05:32.230 think will open us up to this really good question you 89 00:05:32.230 --> 00:05:35.670 just asked. In the last church I served, we kept having people 90 00:05:35.750 --> 00:05:39.350 show up that would say, like, we were generally using 91 00:05:39.350 --> 00:05:42.910 the mission statement of the United Methodist Church at the time to make 92 00:05:42.910 --> 00:05:46.610 disciples of Jesus Christ for the transformation of the world. And 93 00:05:46.610 --> 00:05:50.210 we would have people show up, first-time newcomers, 94 00:05:50.210 --> 00:05:54.050 guests, and they'd say, hey, like that whole transformation 95 00:05:54.050 --> 00:05:57.010 of the world thing, but what's a disciple? 96 00:05:58.850 --> 00:06:02.450 And we're like, well, everybody knows what a disciple is. 97 00:06:02.530 --> 00:06:06.210 You know, it's a little of this, it's a little of that. We know one 98 00:06:06.210 --> 00:06:08.930 when we see one. And that was 99 00:06:09.010 --> 00:06:12.790 spectacularly unhelpful. And it 100 00:06:12.790 --> 00:06:16.630 just kept happening over and over again. Unrelated people who would show up 101 00:06:16.630 --> 00:06:19.990 for the first time and they'd say, yeah, well, when you talk about a 102 00:06:19.990 --> 00:06:23.150 disciple, what is that? What's a disciple? 103 00:06:23.870 --> 00:06:27.670 And it got to the point, I mean, we realized 104 00:06:27.670 --> 00:06:30.990 that we couldn't answer it very well. And that became 105 00:06:30.990 --> 00:06:34.470 embarrassing. So I got the other pastors together and said, look, we got to come 106 00:06:34.470 --> 00:06:37.110 up with a better answer than this. We can't just say we know one when 107 00:06:37.110 --> 00:06:40.830 we see one. Come on. And how hard could this be? Let's just take 108 00:06:40.910 --> 00:06:43.690 3 weeks and knock this thing out and then we'll have a answer. 109 00:06:44.730 --> 00:06:48.170 8 months later, we came back with something 110 00:06:48.410 --> 00:06:52.130 that we thought describes what a real disciple 111 00:06:52.130 --> 00:06:55.530 of Jesus was like, because we had to, like, wrestle that out of our guts. 112 00:06:55.530 --> 00:06:58.530 You know, we had to go deep into scripture. We had to spend time in 113 00:06:58.530 --> 00:07:02.370 prayer. We had all kinds of discussions that went on for months before we 114 00:07:02.370 --> 00:07:05.690 could send something or actually, you know, kind of present something to our 115 00:07:05.690 --> 00:07:09.250 leadership and have them wrestle with a little for a little while and then have 116 00:07:09.250 --> 00:07:13.080 them say, yes, Yeah, this is it. This is what we understand 117 00:07:13.080 --> 00:07:16.840 to be a disciple in our context. And then we had to roll it out 118 00:07:16.840 --> 00:07:20.520 with the whole congregation and go through a sermon series 119 00:07:20.520 --> 00:07:24.040 and a study that was attached to that. And eventually 120 00:07:24.120 --> 00:07:26.840 we made that a part of our discipleship process in the church. 121 00:07:28.200 --> 00:07:31.560 And we came up with 3 kind of general 122 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:35.160 characteristics of what a disciple looks like. First, a disciple loves 123 00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:38.990 God, according to Jesus. And a disciple launches 124 00:07:38.990 --> 00:07:41.750 community. They're in community with other people, 125 00:07:42.550 --> 00:07:46.310 and they initiate that. And then they also 126 00:07:46.310 --> 00:07:49.710 unleash compassion. And so 127 00:07:49.710 --> 00:07:53.189 broadly speaking, that's what a disciple looks like. Now, 128 00:07:53.590 --> 00:07:57.030 of course, it's hard to live as a disciple 129 00:07:57.110 --> 00:08:00.230 broadly. There's lots of specifics that are involved. 130 00:08:01.510 --> 00:08:04.970 And we realized that 131 00:08:05.850 --> 00:08:09.610 to drill down on that a little bit, there were actually 132 00:08:10.250 --> 00:08:13.810 6 more specific marks of a 133 00:08:13.810 --> 00:08:17.570 disciple that all ended up starting with the word G. So we 134 00:08:17.570 --> 00:08:20.890 called them our G6 network. All right. 135 00:08:21.130 --> 00:08:24.730 And so here are the 6 Gs. They were glory, the 136 00:08:24.730 --> 00:08:27.210 glory of God, grace, giftedness, 137 00:08:28.780 --> 00:08:32.340 I'm sorry, group, growth, giftedness, 138 00:08:32.660 --> 00:08:36.420 and generosity. Now, those 6 139 00:08:36.580 --> 00:08:40.340 Gs all had an inward experience to them and an outward 140 00:08:40.340 --> 00:08:43.940 expression. Now, that's good Wesleyan theology right there. Like, 141 00:08:43.940 --> 00:08:47.780 it's not just one or the other. It's not just about me and Jesus 142 00:08:47.780 --> 00:08:51.380 and all the wonderful things, ecstatic experiences I'm having in the 143 00:08:51.380 --> 00:08:54.900 Holy Spirit. It's also about how does that get lived out in your life? 144 00:08:54.900 --> 00:08:58.520 Wesley often talked about holiness of heart and 145 00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:02.680 life. And so that's where that comes from. And 146 00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:05.800 we called these people deeply devoted disciples. 147 00:09:06.840 --> 00:09:10.200 So that was what we considered to be life in 148 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:13.960 3D. Hmm. You know, 149 00:09:14.520 --> 00:09:18.360 what was missing in your 6 Gs, and this is 150 00:09:18.360 --> 00:09:21.920 not a critique by any means, it's more of a critique of the 151 00:09:21.920 --> 00:09:25.600 culture at large, was something about sin management. So 152 00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:28.340 I was talking with a friend a couple of weeks and he was talking about 153 00:09:28.340 --> 00:09:32.060 how, as he was raised in a tradition of 154 00:09:32.060 --> 00:09:35.620 faith, that the gospel to him was really about like the gospel of sin management. 155 00:09:35.780 --> 00:09:39.580 And so the mark of discipleship was how 156 00:09:39.580 --> 00:09:42.980 well you were able to really avoid 157 00:09:43.220 --> 00:09:46.380 sin. And I found your 158 00:09:46.380 --> 00:09:50.220 discussion of sin to be helpful and would probably 159 00:09:50.220 --> 00:09:53.980 be like really illuminating for him to read. Can you tell 160 00:09:53.980 --> 00:09:57.660 us a little bit about, well, first your definition of sin and 161 00:09:57.660 --> 00:10:01.440 then what it looks like for a disciple disciple to, in effect, 162 00:10:01.520 --> 00:10:05.200 be sinless? Well, that's a good question, whether a 163 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:08.880 disciple can be sinless. But for me, you know, sin 164 00:10:08.880 --> 00:10:12.720 is just a total disregard of God and others. I mean, when 165 00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:16.880 we are intentionally disobeying the will of God 166 00:10:16.880 --> 00:10:20.160 in one way or another, whether it's by commission or 167 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:24.240 omission, that's sin. But when we're also breaking relationship, 168 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:28.110 not only with God, but with other people, that's sin too. And we 169 00:10:28.110 --> 00:10:31.510 can even break relationship with ourselves. We can even sin 170 00:10:31.590 --> 00:10:35.390 against ourselves. All right. And that's not the 171 00:10:35.390 --> 00:10:39.190 way God created us to live in this world. Sin's always some 172 00:10:39.190 --> 00:10:42.950 kind of life taker. It's a killer. It drains life away 173 00:10:42.950 --> 00:10:46.630 from us rather than bringing us into the life that is 174 00:10:46.790 --> 00:10:50.190 God, which is eternal. Right? So 175 00:10:50.510 --> 00:10:54.180 when we are living a life that 176 00:10:54.180 --> 00:10:57.980 is in blatant disregard to God and others and 177 00:10:58.060 --> 00:11:01.540 breaking relationship with God and others, it's going to be 178 00:11:01.540 --> 00:11:05.300 destructive to us and destructive to those who are 179 00:11:05.300 --> 00:11:09.020 around us. There are practices then that help 180 00:11:09.020 --> 00:11:12.460 us, I guess, restore this right relationship in community. 181 00:11:14.460 --> 00:11:17.980 I think when we think about the rhythm of 182 00:11:18.670 --> 00:11:22.350 faith at large, a lot of times it kind of hinges 183 00:11:22.350 --> 00:11:25.950 around maybe a Sunday morning event or this large 184 00:11:25.950 --> 00:11:29.310 body gathering. That's the central part of our community 185 00:11:29.630 --> 00:11:33.390 experience together. And you actually push for a 186 00:11:33.390 --> 00:11:36.990 different expression being the central part of 187 00:11:37.310 --> 00:11:40.870 our, I guess, our faith or discipleship journey 188 00:11:40.870 --> 00:11:44.670 together. Can you tell us a little bit about the small group 189 00:11:44.830 --> 00:11:48.390 experience, why that is so important in our path towards 190 00:11:48.390 --> 00:11:52.210 discipleship? Well, you know, when we get the early 191 00:11:52.610 --> 00:11:56.130 church, the first snapshot of the early church in Acts in the second chapter, 192 00:11:56.210 --> 00:11:59.770 you see that the earliest Christians, earliest followers of Jesus—they 193 00:11:59.930 --> 00:12:03.650 weren't called Christians at the time—the earliest followers of Jesus were 194 00:12:03.890 --> 00:12:07.250 people that met together in the temple courts, and then they met together 195 00:12:07.570 --> 00:12:11.330 in their homes. And you had this wonderful dual combination: 196 00:12:11.490 --> 00:12:14.930 temple courts, large group, and in their homes, small group. Because, you know, 197 00:12:15.010 --> 00:12:18.770 people back in the day did not have these palatial 198 00:12:18.770 --> 00:12:22.410 2,000-square-foot homes, right? Like, if 199 00:12:22.410 --> 00:12:26.170 you had a 500-square-foot home, you probably had a pretty good-sized home. So you're 200 00:12:26.170 --> 00:12:29.050 not going to be able to hold a whole bunch of people in that size 201 00:12:29.050 --> 00:12:32.570 of a place. But people gathered together with glad and 202 00:12:32.570 --> 00:12:36.290 sincere hearts in their homes, eating together. And 203 00:12:36.530 --> 00:12:40.130 scripture says the Lord added to their number those who were being saved 204 00:12:40.370 --> 00:12:43.810 day by day. He doesn't say every Sunday. 205 00:12:44.760 --> 00:12:48.560 And I also didn't say every Wednesday night when you had your church 206 00:12:48.560 --> 00:12:51.360 programs. Like, this was a life-on-life, 24/7, 207 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:57.320 365 living of the gospel. 208 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:01.880 And so if that's the case, then there must be some practices 209 00:13:02.520 --> 00:13:05.080 that we would be involved in that have 210 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:10.120 not much to do necessarily with corporate worship. 211 00:13:10.980 --> 00:13:14.340 Corporate worship really is designed to be the outgrowth. 212 00:13:14.500 --> 00:13:18.260 That's the extra, that's the icing on the cake. That's not meant to be 213 00:13:18.260 --> 00:13:22.020 the main meal, right? So what is 214 00:13:22.020 --> 00:13:25.580 the main meal? Well, there are all kinds of spiritual 215 00:13:25.580 --> 00:13:29.180 disciplines, spiritual practices that can make the main 216 00:13:29.180 --> 00:13:32.900 meal. One of them is what we just talked about, is getting 217 00:13:32.980 --> 00:13:36.700 together in a group of other people where you can pull down the 218 00:13:36.700 --> 00:13:39.960 mask and say, look, I know this is the image that I project, 219 00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:44.600 but underneath it's really not that good. This is what I'm afraid of. 220 00:13:44.680 --> 00:13:47.920 This is what's keeping me up at night. This is the issue that I'm having 221 00:13:47.920 --> 00:13:51.760 with my wife or my kid. And I 222 00:13:51.760 --> 00:13:55.320 just, I just need to be real with you about what's happening in the 223 00:13:55.320 --> 00:13:59.160 lower regions of my own life. And 224 00:13:59.480 --> 00:14:02.280 that's when you have a chance to get into 225 00:14:02.760 --> 00:14:06.440 authentic discipleship because that's the real stuff of life. And 226 00:14:07.070 --> 00:14:10.150 I don't know about you, but I've run across what I could 227 00:14:10.830 --> 00:14:13.910 only call blind spots in my life, right? 228 00:14:14.910 --> 00:14:18.510 And then I realized, you know what, maybe I'm not the only one that has 229 00:14:18.510 --> 00:14:22.230 a blind spot. And it's become apparent to me 230 00:14:22.230 --> 00:14:25.950 that all of us kind of live with who we are right back here, 231 00:14:25.950 --> 00:14:29.630 right, right to your right or left ear, right in that spot that 232 00:14:29.630 --> 00:14:33.470 you're blind to. And if I wasn't looking into a 233 00:14:33.470 --> 00:14:37.230 camera right now, I wouldn't be able to see this, right? But 234 00:14:37.470 --> 00:14:41.270 you could. You could see what is 235 00:14:41.270 --> 00:14:45.110 a blind spot for me. And you could say, you 236 00:14:45.110 --> 00:14:48.190 know, Roger, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but there are some things 237 00:14:48.190 --> 00:14:51.950 that aren't actually lining up with who you say you want to be. 238 00:14:52.510 --> 00:14:56.270 And they're living right back here. They're out of your sight. 239 00:14:56.270 --> 00:14:59.990 I think they're in your blind spot. And if you did 240 00:14:59.990 --> 00:15:03.790 that in a way that was lovingly telling me the truth about myself, 241 00:15:03.870 --> 00:15:07.710 you would be helping me live into what it means to be a real 242 00:15:07.710 --> 00:15:10.870 follower of Jesus. And it turns out, Ryan, 243 00:15:11.430 --> 00:15:14.870 you have blind spots too. Yeah, I guess so. 244 00:15:15.190 --> 00:15:18.750 Yeah. And there are things that I can see, and if I got to know 245 00:15:18.750 --> 00:15:21.270 you, if we were in a group over time, there would be things that I 246 00:15:21.349 --> 00:15:24.310 would be able to see in your life that you can't see 247 00:15:24.630 --> 00:15:28.310 yourself just yet. And if you were willing to open 248 00:15:28.630 --> 00:15:32.270 yourself up to that and invite that, I could say, well, 249 00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:36.680 Actually, yeah, there's one or two things I do see here, 250 00:15:36.680 --> 00:15:40.360 Ryan, that you might not be able to see yourself at the 251 00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:44.120 moment. And that's one of the beauties of Christian community, when we can 252 00:15:44.280 --> 00:15:47.480 get to that level of authenticity and vulnerability 253 00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:51.560 to be able to help us to actually live into who it is that 254 00:15:51.560 --> 00:15:55.360 God's called us to be. In your practice of parish ministry, how 255 00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:59.120 did you help people find those small connections, those 256 00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:02.570 small groups? Well, actually, I have been a big 257 00:16:02.570 --> 00:16:06.290 proponent of small groups for the vast majority of my adult 258 00:16:06.290 --> 00:16:09.490 life because I just had that experience early on from 259 00:16:09.810 --> 00:16:13.650 college, even a little bit in high school, but mostly from college on. 260 00:16:13.730 --> 00:16:17.410 I was shaped. I was transformed. I 261 00:16:17.410 --> 00:16:21.130 really sensed my call into ministry through a small group. There 262 00:16:21.130 --> 00:16:24.010 was one in particular that had a huge impact on my life, but there have 263 00:16:24.010 --> 00:16:27.790 been others along the way. And I've I've 264 00:16:27.790 --> 00:16:31.470 always found out more about who I really am in Christ 265 00:16:31.710 --> 00:16:35.510 in the context of a small group where I allowed them to get 266 00:16:35.510 --> 00:16:39.070 to know me and they allowed me to get to know 267 00:16:39.230 --> 00:16:42.949 them. So because that's been such a vital part of my 268 00:16:42.949 --> 00:16:46.550 own faith journey, I've always been a big proponent of that in the 269 00:16:46.550 --> 00:16:50.270 churches I've served. And so I would preach about it. All right. 270 00:16:50.270 --> 00:16:54.110 I would preach about the importance of being in little communities 271 00:16:54.430 --> 00:16:57.820 where you can know and be known. Where you can love and be 272 00:16:57.820 --> 00:17:00.740 loved, where you can celebrate and be celebrated. 273 00:17:01.540 --> 00:17:05.380 And then I would also choose people who I thought had the 274 00:17:05.380 --> 00:17:08.980 potential to be small group leaders and small group apprentice leaders, 275 00:17:09.540 --> 00:17:13.260 and then actually train them in that 276 00:17:13.260 --> 00:17:16.940 kind of work, encourage them to be inviting people to become in their small groups, 277 00:17:16.940 --> 00:17:20.780 but also talk about that from, you know, from 278 00:17:20.780 --> 00:17:23.900 the pulpit in the big room to say, here are some of our small group 279 00:17:23.900 --> 00:17:27.380 leaders. If you're not in a group yet, let me tell you what you're missing. 280 00:17:27.380 --> 00:17:31.120 And Let me encourage you to give this a try. And then, you know, 281 00:17:31.120 --> 00:17:34.920 from time to time, we literally have like sign-up times, you 282 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:38.760 know, like, oh, we're gonna do small groups, like as a congregation, 283 00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:42.080 everybody that we can possibly get in a small group, we're gonna get in a 284 00:17:42.080 --> 00:17:45.840 small group for 6 weeks and just try it out. And my experience with 285 00:17:45.840 --> 00:17:49.520 that is when people get a taste of it, like the real deal, 286 00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:54.020 they don't wanna go back. Yeah. I want to 287 00:17:54.020 --> 00:17:57.620 hinge back to worship for a moment. Oftentimes when we talk about 288 00:17:57.620 --> 00:18:01.460 worship, we do imagine it being within the context of like the large group 289 00:18:01.460 --> 00:18:05.220 gathering. Again, happens on a Sunday morning 290 00:18:05.620 --> 00:18:09.339 in most of our communities. You define worship as really 291 00:18:09.339 --> 00:18:12.740 just being an encounter with God's presence. And so I'm 292 00:18:12.740 --> 00:18:16.300 wondering how, as we start talking about a life of faith that lives 293 00:18:16.300 --> 00:18:20.110 beyond that Sunday morning experience, how does worship go 294 00:18:20.110 --> 00:18:23.790 beyond that Sunday morning experience? Yeah, there are 295 00:18:24.110 --> 00:18:27.470 a lot of ways that that happens, but this really is 296 00:18:27.950 --> 00:18:31.710 the place that the glory of God comes into play. So 297 00:18:31.710 --> 00:18:34.350 when we enter into worship, we have the 298 00:18:34.750 --> 00:18:38.190 opportunity to experience the glory of God. 299 00:18:38.510 --> 00:18:42.310 And in my experience, whenever we experience God's 300 00:18:42.310 --> 00:18:46.110 presence, we encounter God's glory. And I don't know 301 00:18:46.110 --> 00:18:48.510 if our listeners are aware of this or not, but 302 00:18:49.950 --> 00:18:53.790 the word glory is used over 250 times in the scriptures. I 303 00:18:53.790 --> 00:18:57.590 mean, it's rampant throughout the scriptures. And it's 304 00:18:57.590 --> 00:19:01.310 often talking about this sense of power, of presence, of the 305 00:19:01.310 --> 00:19:05.150 weightiness, the kabod, that's what it's called in Hebrew, the kabod, 306 00:19:05.230 --> 00:19:08.910 the glory of God, the kabod of God. I love that phrase. And 307 00:19:08.910 --> 00:19:12.590 many of us have had an experience of that where God's come close, 308 00:19:13.870 --> 00:19:17.070 where all of a sudden that thin veil 309 00:19:17.660 --> 00:19:21.020 between what is eternal and what is temporal 310 00:19:21.580 --> 00:19:25.420 gets pulled back. Sometimes that happens at the birth of 311 00:19:25.420 --> 00:19:28.860 a child or at a funeral, or sometimes it 312 00:19:28.860 --> 00:19:32.540 happens in a time of great crisis. Sometimes it happens 313 00:19:32.540 --> 00:19:35.900 in a time of great beauty when you're just overwhelmed with 314 00:19:36.700 --> 00:19:40.460 the awe of beauty before you. And 315 00:19:40.780 --> 00:19:43.260 the presence of God draws close. 316 00:19:44.520 --> 00:19:48.040 And that doesn't necessarily happen every single Sunday in a worship service. 317 00:19:48.120 --> 00:19:51.760 Not that it can't, but it doesn't always. And it's not meant 318 00:19:51.760 --> 00:19:55.560 to only happen when you're together in a large group worship setting. 319 00:19:55.560 --> 00:19:59.320 In fact, I would suggest that it's as much as 320 00:19:59.320 --> 00:20:03.080 likely to happen outside, if not more so, than inside 321 00:20:03.320 --> 00:20:06.760 a large group worship experience. And 322 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:10.240 there are ways that we can cultivate that through daily 323 00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:13.760 solitude, through an ongoing conversation with God, and 324 00:20:13.760 --> 00:20:17.540 through a daily review of the way the presence of God 325 00:20:17.540 --> 00:20:21.300 has drawn near or been distant to us over the course of our past 326 00:20:21.300 --> 00:20:24.860 day. And so those are the three practices I talk about in some detail under 327 00:20:24.860 --> 00:20:28.700 the glory chapter. But I'll just talk about that first one to 328 00:20:28.700 --> 00:20:32.180 begin with, just to give a little taste. I mean, what would it be like 329 00:20:33.540 --> 00:20:36.180 if you were to set your watch 330 00:20:37.380 --> 00:20:40.940 for 5 minutes and you found a 331 00:20:40.940 --> 00:20:44.020 quiet place, you would not be disturbed, everything else is turned off, 332 00:20:45.450 --> 00:20:48.250 and you just sat alone with God 333 00:20:48.970 --> 00:20:52.810 for 5 minutes. Now, you can do 334 00:20:52.810 --> 00:20:56.090 almost anything for 5 minutes, but to actually 335 00:20:56.410 --> 00:21:00.090 intentionally have solitude with God for 5 minutes, 336 00:21:00.810 --> 00:21:04.370 and you may need to pick a word or phrase to say silently to 337 00:21:04.370 --> 00:21:08.010 yourself over and over again to keep you focused, because 338 00:21:08.090 --> 00:21:11.850 we all have that challenge. I certainly do. I sit down 339 00:21:12.010 --> 00:21:15.770 quiet for a while, my mind goes off in a thousand different directions. And 340 00:21:15.770 --> 00:21:18.550 so So one of the ways that I use 341 00:21:20.470 --> 00:21:23.790 a, you know, kind of a toy, so to speak, to give my mind something 342 00:21:23.790 --> 00:21:27.390 to play with is to pick up a word or phrase and just say it 343 00:21:27.390 --> 00:21:29.830 over and over again. For instance, Jesus, 344 00:21:31.510 --> 00:21:35.310 Jesus, Jesus. I just 345 00:21:35.310 --> 00:21:38.950 say that silently to myself to center myself and 346 00:21:38.950 --> 00:21:42.550 keep my focus there when my thoughts start going off in some other direction. 347 00:21:42.860 --> 00:21:45.500 To bring them right back to Jesus. 348 00:21:46.620 --> 00:21:50.460 And to do that for just 5 minutes gives you a chance to actually 349 00:21:50.940 --> 00:21:54.740 be in the presence of God instead of trying 350 00:21:54.740 --> 00:21:57.180 to do something for God. 351 00:21:59.260 --> 00:22:03.060 And when we put ourselves in a position where we're receptive and 352 00:22:03.060 --> 00:22:06.820 we're just being, we're not, you know, we were created to be human beings, 353 00:22:06.820 --> 00:22:10.600 right? Not human doings. So when we place ourselves in 354 00:22:10.600 --> 00:22:14.320 a position where we can be with God, we're much 355 00:22:14.320 --> 00:22:17.400 more likely to be in a spot where we could experience 356 00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:21.280 God's glory. Has there been a time when you've 357 00:22:21.280 --> 00:22:25.040 been surprised by God's presence or God's 358 00:22:25.040 --> 00:22:28.840 glory or by a moment of worship? More times 359 00:22:28.840 --> 00:22:32.360 than I could count. Yeah, absolutely. Because 360 00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:35.720 you can't control that. God is free. So God 361 00:22:36.850 --> 00:22:40.050 God chooses to show up in our lives. But I will say, 362 00:22:40.530 --> 00:22:44.290 when you practice these disciplines that I've just mentioned and others, 363 00:22:44.370 --> 00:22:48.170 you put yourself in a position where you're more likely to be present to the 364 00:22:48.170 --> 00:22:51.650 presence. Right? And become 365 00:22:51.730 --> 00:22:55.530 aware of those times when God is showing up that previously may 366 00:22:55.530 --> 00:22:59.090 have just gone right by. I'm like, I, 367 00:23:00.130 --> 00:23:03.570 you know, I have these kinds of moments all the time. I have these moments 368 00:23:04.360 --> 00:23:06.880 at the grocery store. This morning I was in a number of coaching calls with 369 00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:10.400 people, and there were moments where the glory of 370 00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:13.880 God entered into the conversation. Didn't 371 00:23:13.880 --> 00:23:17.680 necessarily last for the entire time, but there were moments when it's 372 00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:21.440 like, oh, there's a fullness there. 373 00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:25.200 There's a weightiness there. There's some of the 374 00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:28.520 glory. And sometimes you could sense 375 00:23:28.760 --> 00:23:32.240 yourself starting to tear up, or the other person that you're talking to starts to 376 00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:35.720 tear up. I mean, we have those natural human emotional 377 00:23:36.100 --> 00:23:39.700 actions when the glory of God comes close. 378 00:23:40.340 --> 00:23:43.460 Have you run any marathons lately? I have not. 379 00:23:44.260 --> 00:23:47.780 So you're referencing something I talk about in the growth 380 00:23:48.260 --> 00:23:52.059 chapter. I did back in the day, I think it was 2009, I ran the 381 00:23:52.059 --> 00:23:55.900 Chicago Marathon for the first and only time. And so I was 382 00:23:55.900 --> 00:23:59.380 a one and done with regard to that. I did a half marathon after that, 383 00:23:59.380 --> 00:24:02.370 6 months later. You're supposed to do that in the opposite order, but I would've 384 00:24:02.370 --> 00:24:05.330 left. You would go big, right? Yeah. 385 00:24:06.050 --> 00:24:09.130 Go big or go home. And so I, I did both. So I went big 386 00:24:09.130 --> 00:24:12.970 and then I went home. But that was, that was a great experience. I learned 387 00:24:12.970 --> 00:24:16.370 a lot. I learned a lot about what you can do with your human body 388 00:24:16.450 --> 00:24:20.210 in training over time. And I also learned a lot about 389 00:24:20.690 --> 00:24:24.130 how to live with sustained pain while you're 390 00:24:25.010 --> 00:24:28.810 exercising because that's, that's what it's like to run 391 00:24:28.810 --> 00:24:32.490 a marathon. Yeah, well, and you talk about hitting the wall, that point 392 00:24:32.490 --> 00:24:36.210 in which physically, like, your body just stops responding. It's out of 393 00:24:36.210 --> 00:24:39.530 energy and it can't do anymore. Sometimes they call it 394 00:24:39.530 --> 00:24:43.210 bonking. And you're able to tie that together with the fact that 395 00:24:43.450 --> 00:24:47.090 some of us in the course of our lives, we hit the 396 00:24:47.090 --> 00:24:50.730 wall spiritually. And so I'm wondering if you can 397 00:24:51.610 --> 00:24:55.050 describe for us a little bit some of the symptoms of maybe hitting the wall 398 00:24:55.050 --> 00:24:57.530 spiritually and then how we might push through those. 399 00:24:58.950 --> 00:25:02.790 Yeah, you know, we're on a faith journey. All 400 00:25:02.790 --> 00:25:06.550 of us are on a faith journey and we're all someplace on that journey. And 401 00:25:06.630 --> 00:25:10.430 some of us are in stage 1 where either we haven't yet or we're 402 00:25:10.430 --> 00:25:13.710 beginning to recognize God. And that 403 00:25:13.710 --> 00:25:16.950 recognition stage often happens when we 404 00:25:17.430 --> 00:25:20.870 have some kind of trouble happens in our life and we sense a need, 405 00:25:21.350 --> 00:25:25.150 or we're experiencing something that's so beautiful and we're just 406 00:25:25.150 --> 00:25:28.750 awestruck. And we realize, oh, there's something greater in this universe 407 00:25:28.830 --> 00:25:32.430 than just me or just us. And that's the 408 00:25:32.430 --> 00:25:36.110 beginning. That's the kind of the barest first part of 409 00:25:36.110 --> 00:25:39.790 a journey, which then leads us, if we 410 00:25:39.790 --> 00:25:43.550 continue on that journey, leads us into a real relationship with 411 00:25:43.550 --> 00:25:47.310 God through his son Jesus. And then at that point, we're 412 00:25:47.310 --> 00:25:51.110 like newborn spiritual babies, right? So 413 00:25:51.110 --> 00:25:54.710 now we're starting like a whole different part 414 00:25:54.710 --> 00:25:58.350 of this journey where we're getting into the life of discipleship 415 00:25:58.350 --> 00:26:01.910 and we're beginning to learn what it means to do 416 00:26:02.150 --> 00:26:05.950 things that are spiritual disciplines, learning about how to pray, learning about how to 417 00:26:05.950 --> 00:26:09.590 read scripture and apply it to our lives, learning about how to 418 00:26:09.590 --> 00:26:13.190 have solitude with God, as I mentioned before, all those kinds of things. 419 00:26:13.270 --> 00:26:17.110 That leads us to a third stage, which is the more, more of 420 00:26:17.110 --> 00:26:20.630 an outward stage, you know, where you're going out to serve 421 00:26:20.630 --> 00:26:24.420 and care for and help others. And 422 00:26:24.420 --> 00:26:27.980 it's a very productive part of the journey, right? 423 00:26:28.380 --> 00:26:32.180 And when you're in that spot and you're practicing 424 00:26:32.180 --> 00:26:35.980 spiritual disciplines and you're being very productive and you're serving 425 00:26:35.980 --> 00:26:39.500 for others, or there's fruit that's being born, you think, well, this is like 426 00:26:39.580 --> 00:26:42.940 great. This is how it's all supposed to work. This is wonderful. 427 00:26:43.180 --> 00:26:46.940 And then you hit the wall. It's very much 428 00:26:46.940 --> 00:26:50.330 like when you're running a marathon. You're running along and all of a sudden, 429 00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:54.360 Boom. Usually it's like mile 18 to 20, somewhere in 430 00:26:54.360 --> 00:26:58.160 there. And the, uh, the energy that's been 431 00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:01.600 stored in your legs that you've been working on and building up over the course 432 00:27:01.600 --> 00:27:05.360 of months, if not years, in preparation and in your training is 433 00:27:05.600 --> 00:27:09.040 finally gone. All the glycogen is gone. And now you're just 434 00:27:09.040 --> 00:27:12.840 gutting it out. Uh, 'cause the problem, of course, with that is if you get 435 00:27:12.840 --> 00:27:16.280 to mile 18, uh, you still have 436 00:27:16.280 --> 00:27:20.080 8.2 miles to go in a marathon. Right. 437 00:27:20.320 --> 00:27:24.160 Yeah. Right. So now it's like, okay, how am I going to 438 00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:26.960 push through the wall to actually finish the race? 439 00:27:28.080 --> 00:27:31.800 And this is what happens in our spiritual lives. We'll be going along and 440 00:27:31.800 --> 00:27:34.800 things will be going great. And all of a sudden we hit a wall. Now, 441 00:27:34.800 --> 00:27:38.440 wall generally is when some kind of crisis happens. You 442 00:27:38.440 --> 00:27:42.240 know, when a parent is in a car accident and 443 00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:46.040 dies unexpectedly. When the phone rings the wrong way and you pick it up and 444 00:27:46.040 --> 00:27:49.720 the doctor says, well, I'm sorry, it's cancer. Or your spouse says, hey, it's been 445 00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:52.620 great, but I'm out. Or, all of a sudden your child 446 00:27:53.420 --> 00:27:56.860 has gotten into so much trouble that now 447 00:27:57.100 --> 00:28:00.900 she or he is going to prison. Or maybe you've 448 00:28:00.900 --> 00:28:04.500 had a bankruptcy or you've lost your job or some kind of sudden 449 00:28:04.500 --> 00:28:07.740 crisis hits your life in a way that you didn't see coming. 450 00:28:08.380 --> 00:28:12.060 And suddenly life doesn't make sense anymore. 451 00:28:12.140 --> 00:28:15.580 And God seems immensely distant, like 452 00:28:15.660 --> 00:28:19.220 God has left the room. And apparently God has left the 453 00:28:19.220 --> 00:28:22.940 universe. It feels like your prayers are bouncing off the wall. You're not getting through. 454 00:28:23.340 --> 00:28:26.140 All this richness in your spiritual life that you were experiencing 455 00:28:26.780 --> 00:28:30.140 previously, it just feels like dust and ashes in your mouth. 456 00:28:31.020 --> 00:28:34.620 And you're like, my gosh, was I just fooling myself? 457 00:28:35.420 --> 00:28:38.940 Like, was this thing just a hoax and I somehow got 458 00:28:38.940 --> 00:28:42.500 sucked into it? Like, what happened here? And 459 00:28:42.500 --> 00:28:46.270 what happened is you just hit the wall. And 460 00:28:46.270 --> 00:28:49.310 that wall is that place where your will 461 00:28:49.790 --> 00:28:53.590 is now struggling with God's will. You're in a wrestling match. For 462 00:28:53.590 --> 00:28:57.310 the first time on a much deeper level in your life, you're being invited 463 00:28:57.550 --> 00:29:01.270 to truly surrender the deeper things in your life to 464 00:29:01.270 --> 00:29:05.110 God. And there are a lot of people that just aren't too keen 465 00:29:05.110 --> 00:29:08.910 on that whole idea. Yeah. Right? So they 466 00:29:08.910 --> 00:29:12.630 hit the wall. Oftentimes what people do, I've had this experience in my own 467 00:29:12.630 --> 00:29:16.010 life, they hit the wall and they just bounce off. It's like, well, 468 00:29:16.730 --> 00:29:20.210 I'm not doing that anymore. That was painful. Like, I'm 469 00:29:20.210 --> 00:29:23.810 smarter enough to at least not do that again. I'm backing off of that. And 470 00:29:24.130 --> 00:29:27.770 sometimes they'll go back into stage 1 or stage 2 or even 471 00:29:27.770 --> 00:29:31.610 into stage 3 and try to recreate what 472 00:29:31.610 --> 00:29:35.210 they had before, but it's not the same. And they 473 00:29:35.210 --> 00:29:39.050 realize, I'm going to have to do something in this wrestling 474 00:29:39.050 --> 00:29:42.890 match with God. Just like Jacob at Peniel, I'm going to have to wrestle 475 00:29:42.890 --> 00:29:46.660 with God through the night. And what most 476 00:29:46.660 --> 00:29:50.420 of us don't realize is that the wall is really 477 00:29:51.060 --> 00:29:52.980 a door in disguise. 478 00:29:54.900 --> 00:29:58.580 It's an opportunity to go through the wall to the other side 479 00:29:58.980 --> 00:30:02.300 where there is a deeper, richer, more transformative 480 00:30:02.300 --> 00:30:06.020 relationship with God than you could ever have on the first side 481 00:30:06.020 --> 00:30:09.740 of the wall. But to go 482 00:30:09.740 --> 00:30:13.520 through the wall is painful and it deconstruct some things in your life, 483 00:30:13.520 --> 00:30:17.360 perhaps, that you had all figured out and you knew exactly the way it was 484 00:30:17.360 --> 00:30:20.280 all supposed to work until that crisis came. 485 00:30:20.840 --> 00:30:23.880 And God really wants to invite us to 486 00:30:24.120 --> 00:30:27.400 surrender some of the deeper things in our lives. Not that we 487 00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:31.320 would completely give up who we are or who God made us to be, 488 00:30:31.320 --> 00:30:34.680 but we would surrender those things into God's hands so he could give them back 489 00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:36.520 to us in a different form. 490 00:30:38.370 --> 00:30:42.210 And now instead of us kind of, you know, 491 00:30:42.290 --> 00:30:45.810 thinking it's pretty great to have God on my side, now 492 00:30:46.130 --> 00:30:49.930 we're on God's side. Right? 493 00:30:49.930 --> 00:30:53.650 And so Jesus is not around to help me be a success. 494 00:30:54.130 --> 00:30:57.850 Now I'm around to help Jesus be a success. And 495 00:30:57.850 --> 00:31:01.530 it's a completely different approach to a relationship with God 496 00:31:01.530 --> 00:31:05.270 and living as a follower of Jesus. Yeah. I'll tell you, 497 00:31:05.270 --> 00:31:08.910 Ryan, I wish to God someone would have explained this to me about 30 498 00:31:08.910 --> 00:31:12.350 years ago. Right. Because I've been through several 499 00:31:12.350 --> 00:31:16.150 walls in my life, and probably I'm going to 500 00:31:16.150 --> 00:31:19.830 go through some more before it's in, before the whole thing's over. Because 501 00:31:19.990 --> 00:31:23.830 walls are meant to purify us, to deepen us, 502 00:31:23.830 --> 00:31:27.630 to winnow out the dead branches in our lives so 503 00:31:27.630 --> 00:31:31.400 that we can grow strong and true. In the life that God has 504 00:31:31.720 --> 00:31:35.480 created for us. Amen. That is a 505 00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:40.280 word of strength to take us out, Roger. For those who are 506 00:31:40.520 --> 00:31:44.240 looking to maybe connect with you a little bit more, you mentioned The Humility 507 00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:47.400 Group. Is that a good website to check out more of your work? 508 00:31:47.880 --> 00:31:51.520 It is. That's the best place to go, thehumilitygroup.org. 509 00:31:51.520 --> 00:31:55.160 I have the privilege of working with lots of pastors 510 00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:58.930 and church leadership teams and some conferences 511 00:31:58.930 --> 00:32:02.650 and districts and the like, just to really help spiritual 512 00:32:02.650 --> 00:32:06.450 leaders live grace-filled lives that can transform the world. 513 00:32:06.530 --> 00:32:10.050 I've spent most of my life as a pastor and I love pastors. 514 00:32:10.210 --> 00:32:13.970 I love to see the church thrive. I love to see pastors 515 00:32:13.970 --> 00:32:17.650 thrive. And it's my privilege that I get to do that every 516 00:32:17.650 --> 00:32:21.330 day. Well, once again, thanks for taking the time to talk with us, for 517 00:32:21.330 --> 00:32:25.040 offering your experience. My pleasure, Ryan. Thanks for having 518 00:32:25.040 --> 00:32:28.720 me on. All right, friend, thank you for being a part of our 519 00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:32.320 Compass community. We look forward to continuing to 520 00:32:32.320 --> 00:32:36.160 explore spirituality in the everyday with you. You might want to 521 00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:39.680 listen to another episode of Compass. I recommend it. And if you 522 00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:42.800 liked this episode, then I recommend episode number 523 00:32:42.800 --> 00:32:45.640 173, Breaking the Evangelism 524 00:32:45.640 --> 00:32:49.410 Stereotype with Stephanie Moore Hand. Or 525 00:32:49.810 --> 00:32:53.370 you can do a deeper dive into contemplative 526 00:32:53.370 --> 00:32:56.610 practices with episode number 159. 527 00:32:56.770 --> 00:33:00.530 That's How a 500-Year-Old Practice Can Help Calm 528 00:33:00.530 --> 00:33:04.290 Modern Anxiety. And again, while you're listening, leave a 529 00:33:04.290 --> 00:33:07.890 rating and/or review. The Compass Podcast is brought to you by United 530 00:33:07.970 --> 00:33:11.410 Methodist Communications. And that's all for this week. We'll be back with a new 531 00:33:11.410 --> 00:33:15.250 episode in 2 weeks' time. I'll chat at you then. Peace.